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Greater Manchester Bus Franchising Assessment

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Dentonian

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I'm not sure you're really discussing much to do with GM Franchising issues at all. You seem to be basing all your thoughts ad comments on your life experiences in just one part of the UK (Greater Manchester) and making some assumptions that the rest of the country is much the same. It may be that Greater Manchester has a few unique issues, but then I'm sure many other areas could claim the same.
What you seem to be more interested in is simple nationalisation, so that we have numerous services running all over the place, at regular frequencies, and very cheap fares. Isn't that the case ?

No. No and no.

1. The topic header state *Greater Manchester* bus franchising assessment. Plus, I have made it clear more than once that circumstances are likely to differ outside GM. The fact they also differ within GM only adds to my argument.

2. I'm not advocating "nationalisation". Buses never have been "nationalised" as such. Not even London Buses are nationalised! I have previously stated - though possibly before I joined this Forum - that much as I oppose privatised public services in principle, it has been deregulation, not privatisation that has caused the real damage.

As for "very cheap" fares that depends on your definition. The bit of my argument you and others can't seem to grasp is that for any given distance and/or type of journey/ticket, everyone should be charged the *same* fare.

It is becoming increasingly clear that the Consultation on Bus Reform in GM has been seriously delayed - it was rumoured late last year as being due in "Summer 2018" - so rather than wait, I will (in a seperate reply) attempt a basic "wish list" as to what it would bring. You will note that it won't purely be a "current TFGMC/GMCA policy is wonderful" submission.

As an aside, and doubtless this would be controversial, I would be interested to know the background of those that oppose *any* sort of Bus Reform. I dare to suggest you, TGW and others would "tick" at least some of he following boxes:

a. Under 50 years old - ie. never experienced Regulated buses on a regular basis

b i. Live outside GM
ii. live in an area of at least average income levels/car ownership levels

c. Own or have virtually unlimited access to private transport - whether on two wheels or four

d. Have personal (gross) income of at least £20K

e. Enjoy good physical health and have no reason to assume this will change in the next decade or so.
 
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Robertj21a

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No. No and no.

1. The topic header state *Greater Manchester* bus franchising assessment. Plus, I have made it clear more than once that circumstances are likely to differ outside GM. The fact they also differ within GM only adds to my argument.

2. I'm not advocating "nationalisation". Buses never have been "nationalised" as such. Not even London Buses are nationalised! I have previously stated - though possibly before I joined this Forum - that much as I oppose privatised public services in principle, it has been deregulation, not privatisation that has caused the real damage.

As for "very cheap" fares that depends on your definition. The bit of my argument you and others can't seem to grasp is that for any given distance and/or type of journey/ticket, everyone should be charged the *same* fare.

It is becoming increasingly clear that the Consultation on Bus Reform in GM has been seriously delayed - it was rumoured late last year as being due in "Summer 2018" - so rather than wait, I will (in a seperate reply) attempt a basic "wish list" as to what it would bring. You will note that it won't purely be a "current TFGMC/GMCA policy is wonderful" submission.

As an aside, and doubtless this would be controversial, I would be interested to know the background of those that oppose *any* sort of Bus Reform. I dare to suggest you, TGW and others would "tick" at least some of he following boxes:

a. Under 50 years old - ie. never experienced Regulated buses on a regular basis

b i. Live outside GM
ii. live in an area of at least average income levels/car ownership levels

c. Own or have virtually unlimited access to private transport - whether on two wheels or four

d. Have personal (gross) income of at least £20K

e. Enjoy good physical health and have no reason to assume this will change in the next decade or so.


Well, you're wildly out with your assumptions, so that tells me quite a bit !. I guess that I can safely assume that you meet all of the points you listed ?

You seem to have a real 'bee in your bonnet' on two key issues:-

- that Greater Manchester/your area/you personally are in some way special, or different, to numerous other similar parts of the UK

- that fares should always be the same for the same distance. Presumably this is because you disagree with competition ?

I still feel that you will only be happy with full nationalisation. Nothing else is going to satisfy you !
 

TheGrandWazoo

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You can't start twisting your beliefs to suit regional (or local) prejudices.

.....I'm just going to leave that there so that others may enjoy the supreme irony of that :lol::lol::lol::lol:

ENCTS is a seperate argument.

Sorry, but if we're talking about the issues of escalating fares (and especially walk on or non-regular passengers i.e. not holders of Megariders and the like), it is the very essence of the argument. That is what is driving that behaviour and it is not confined to Greater Manchester - it is wholesale across the country because the ENCTS guidance is nationwide!!! Once again, you blithely ignore something that is absolutely fundamental behind the pricing strategy of bus services, in much the same way that you ignored the impact of BSOG reduction.

Also, and this is again pivotal, is the impact of government policy outside of just transport. The impact is being felt in the poorest of society, and why is this? Rapacious profiteering by operators so that they can have a limited bus skirmish or is it perhaps measures like the benefits cap that has left people barely with money to spend on rent and food.

I'm not sure you're really discussing much to do with GM Franchising issues at all. You seem to be basing all your thoughts ad comments on your life experiences in just one part of the UK (Greater Manchester) and making some assumptions that the rest of the country is much the same. It may be that Greater Manchester has a few unique issues, but then I'm sure many other areas could claim the same.

Indeed, this is the very point. No real examination of the issues of franchising and certainly no evidence - just opinions of "I've lived in Tameside and I've seen X".

Greater Manchester is not some sort of "place apart" and the very issues that are affecting bus patronage around the UK are equally as prevalent there. The moribund high streets (like Rochdale) with the loss of large anchor stores against a world of online deliveries either direct to your home or Connect Plus to your corner shop. The fragmentation of employment - fewer large employers with a critical mass outside of town/city centres. The decline of pubs and the night time economy.

What IS different is the impact of the Metrolink on abstracting traffic from local buses. That alone explains much of the apparent decline and, at the same time, limits how growth can be achieved on bus services (i.e. the best bus corridors are now massively impacted by Metrolink. Franchising isn't going to deliver some massive benefit in and of itself, and nor does sepia tinted yearning for a pre 1986 world where buses were orange and every day was spring. I'm struggling to see what additional central control and bureaucracy will bring in tangible benefits that can't be done via a strong partnership approach, decent bus priority, effective enforcement of traffic regulations (why not try red routes). Instead, franchising seems like a wizard wheeze to remove direct bus links so that it acts merely as a feeder into Metrolink.

As I said before, the comments of Roger Davies ref: franchising are enlightening, and that is an industry veteran who has worked in the regulated and deregulated, nationalised and independent world.
 

Stan Drews

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5 Jun 2013
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1,578
Thanks for the history lesson (!) but I'm getting confused as to the real relevance to the original subject. We seem to be going so far off the key issue that I'm no longer sure of what points you are making !
Wouldn't it be better for you to start a new thread that better reflects your issues ?

Yes, I think a new thread exclusively for Dentonian to constantly whinge about Stagecoach in Manchester, whilst wearing his blinkers, would be an excellent idea.
Continually reading about “high fare/low car ownership areas” and how Stagecoach charge different fares on different routes does get a little tiresome on endless different threads.
I’m sure you’re a clever person Dentonian, but you really need to take off those blinkers, and get out and see the real world beyond Denton!
 

TheGrandWazoo

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No. No and no.

As an aside, and doubtless this would be controversial, I would be interested to know the background of those that oppose *any* sort of Bus Reform. I dare to suggest you, TGW and others would "tick" at least some of he following boxes:

a. Under 50 years old - ie. never experienced Regulated buses on a regular basis
i. Live outside GM
ii. live in an area of at least average income levels/car ownership levels

c. Own or have virtually unlimited access to private transport - whether on two wheels or four

d. Have personal (gross) income of at least £20K

e. Enjoy good physical health and have no reason to assume this will change in the next decade or so.

Talk about petty prejudices.... let me enlighten you.

Actually, I did answer and then thought better of it; suffice to say, you're largely incorrect.

Your prejudices say much more about you than they do about me. Now I'd really stop making assumptions about people - you're prone to look foolish.

Care to discuss the issues etc? Great - on that basis, we can continue!
 
Last edited:

Dentonian

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Joined
4 Dec 2017
Messages
1,192
Bus Reform and "integrated" issues.

1. A moratorium on Metrolink and other local rail expansion plans in low car ownership areas. Rail should provide an alternative to driving. It should *not* be a tool to make buses uneconomical (whether in a commercial environment or not) and therefore to force people to acquire/use private transport for all/part of their journeys.

2. At least 25% of Councillors on Transport related committees should be non-motorists and live at least 800 metres from any form of Rail. If its ok to have a "quota" system based on race, sex, sexual orientation etc.etc then its ok to have more directly relevant "quotas" on specific committees.

3. Increased spending on *effective* bus priorities. That means bus lanes must be long and unbroken; operational at set hours throughout the conurbation covering all times when there are 6 or more buses per hour using them. Any new ones should only be constructed where they reduce general traffic from 3 to 2 lanes (or even 4 to 3).
More urgently and equitable, all traffic light phasing should be reviewed, with lights prevented from changing to amber/red when a bus approaches. As a starting point, this should happen at all junctions where a bus is on the last kilometre or so of a journey to a bus station, traffic objective or major interchange point. Note; forget Stagecoach rhetoric, these should apply across the conurbation not just in the "regional" centre.

4. A new, single law enforcement agency should be set up to replace parking wardens, traffic wardens and - in terms of non-motorway, decriminalised vehicle based offences - the Police/BTP. With/without cctv assistance, they should drastically increase enforcement of illegal bus stop parking (as well as junction blocking and similar offences around schools). The current practice of "turning a blind eye" or otherwise avoiding bus stop blocking must be stopped and any warden doing so, should be dismissed. I realise this might effectively mean most of GM's current wardens being sacked, but there has to be an end to prejudice. All (net) monies collected from bus stop/bus lane offences should go straight into the Franchising (or similar) budget. Similarly, for cycling offences as the enforcement here would yield absolutely massive revenues in the short term. There is also the link that a very high proportion of conflict is between pavement cyclists and people waiting or alighting at bus stops. Three of the five times I've been hit by cyclists in as many years have been at bus stops. Other sources of revenue from vehicle based crime should also be pursued, but this might be more complicated legally.

5. As I believe has already been agreed in principle, buses should be redeployed based on current and anticipated demand and socio-economic need.

6. As previously emphasised, bus fares must be equalised. As a "ball park" figure and based on Adults aged 22 to retirement age; I would suggest;
Flat single fare of £2. Possibly increasing to £3 for journeys over 6 miles (10km) & for single journeys between 0001 & 0400
Day Rider/daily cap of £5
Weekly ticket (any 7 days) £17 (this would *include* Night buses as the premium proposed for single fares would not be intended to penalise Night workers)
Annual ticket; £750

These fares would be valid on all registered local bus services *and* on city centre Metrolink as already enjoyed by Rail users.
In the short term, I'm not expecting there to be more than a tiny number of Limited Stop/Express services (re) introduced, so its pointless considering an alternative charging mechanism. In the longer term this might change as it is obviously intended that traffic speeds will improve due to reduced congestion.

7. Vehicle specificaton: Age limits per se are pointless. However, all buses in GM should be Euro4 or better (this will happen on all routes into the city except via London Road anyway due to a seperate LEZ). Also all bus seats must be fully cushioned throughout (single deckers) and on the whole lower deck (including over the wheel arches) and at least 50% of the upper deck. Further, all buses should be fully re-cushioned every 5 or 6 years (based on seperately negotiated engineering overhauls to minimise cost and downtime).

8. Security and passenger facilities at bus stations must be dramatically improved. Bus Stations are for bus passengers not smokers and cyclists passing through or motorists taking short cuts. If passengers are being charged 30p to use toilet facilities the toilets should be maintained and regularly cleaned. Again, a zero tolerance for offenders should be taken, with revenues put straight into the Franchising (or similar) current budget.

9, Facility charges for Operators should be dropped (although this would logically happen anyway with GMCA control of service levels), although penalties for stand blocking would still apply. "BSOG" arrangements should be reviewed (and obviously renamed) as with Devolution it would just look like money laundering or at the very least pointless administration/bureaucracy.

10. I don't know that its possible to introduce things like workplace parking levies - and certainly not *before* bus services are considerably improved - as the opposition lobbies are just too powerful with their friends in the media. However, local councils must stop reducing parking fees on Council-run car parks. They should also be banned from promoting such anti-public transport measures in Bus Stations, as Tameside MBC did when they capped all car parking at £2 a day from last year.

And that's just "off the top of my head". I've deliberately not talked about "what it will cost" (other than revenue streams from criminals) as you only have to look at the spending/wastage on other forms of transport both locally and nationally - and indeed other areas of spending such as the cost of keeping criminals in the lap of luxury - to know that this will boil down to a question of priorities and ethics.
 

Robertj21a

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So, a wish list without any indication of how it would be paid for......

To be honest, we could all do that. It's usually called Fantasy Land.

Personally, I'm going to give up on this particular thread as it's not going anywhere.
 

158756

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Joined
12 Aug 2014
Messages
1,449
Bus Reform and "integrated" issues.

1. A moratorium on Metrolink and other local rail expansion plans in low car ownership areas. Rail should provide an alternative to driving. It should *not* be a tool to make buses uneconomical (whether in a commercial environment or not) and therefore to force people to acquire/use private transport for all/part of their journeys.

As I've said before, I strongly disagree with this. The overall objective should be improved public transport, not propping up bus companies at the expense of the passengers, most of whom would have a better, faster journey on a tram, not forgetting the many other passengers who would use the tram but not the bus.

6. As previously emphasised, bus fares must be equalised. As a "ball park" figure and based on Adults aged 22 to retirement age; I would suggest;
Flat single fare of £2. Possibly increasing to £3 for journeys over 6 miles (10km) & for single journeys between 0001 & 0400
Day Rider/daily cap of £5
Weekly ticket (any 7 days) £17 (this would *include* Night buses as the premium proposed for single fares would not be intended to penalise Night workers)
Annual ticket; £750

Realistic, I suppose. Some passengers would be very annoyed though - most single operator weekly tickets are cheaper than that, and you need a monthly ticket, because many people can't afford an annual ticket. Hardest hit would be commuters on the competitive routes, but they're going to get a kicking from regulation anyway.

I think the politicians, to the extent they've actually thought about it, might want fares lower than £2, which isn't a fantastic deal for short distances, but of course that requires money.


10. I don't know that its possible to introduce things like workplace parking levies - and certainly not *before* bus services are considerably improved - as the opposition lobbies are just too powerful with their friends in the media. However, local councils must stop reducing parking fees on Council-run car parks. They should also be banned from promoting such anti-public transport measures in Bus Stations, as Tameside MBC did when they capped all car parking at £2 a day from last year.

Politicians will never stop cutting parking charges, because it wins votes in a way public transport doesn't outside London (and many local councillors are shopkeepers or landlords fearful of ever more customers being driven away to free out of town parking).

Workplace parking levies should be easy to implement if Manchester really is the thriving commercial hub it claims to be. But it's a already been considered and rejected on the basis that it would have to cover all of GM, which the likes of Rochdale and Wigan won't, and shouldn't, ever sign up to.
 

Dentonian

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Joined
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Messages
1,192
So, a wish list without any indication of how it would be paid for......

To be honest, we could all do that. It's usually called Fantasy Land.

Personally, I'm going to give up on this particular thread as it's not going anywhere.

So you've deliberately ignored the last paragraph!
 

RT4038

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Joined
22 Feb 2014
Messages
4,231
Bus Reform and "integrated" issues.

1. A moratorium on Metrolink and other local rail expansion plans in low car ownership areas. Rail should provide an alternative to driving. It should *not* be a tool to make buses uneconomical (whether in a commercial environment or not) and therefore to force people to acquire/use private transport for all/part of their journeys.

2. At least 25% of Councillors on Transport related committees should be non-motorists and live at least 800 metres from any form of Rail. If its ok to have a "quota" system based on race, sex, sexual orientation etc.etc then its ok to have more directly relevant "quotas" on specific committees.

3. Increased spending on *effective* bus priorities. That means bus lanes must be long and unbroken; operational at set hours throughout the conurbation covering all times when there are 6 or more buses per hour using them. Any new ones should only be constructed where they reduce general traffic from 3 to 2 lanes (or even 4 to 3).
More urgently and equitable, all traffic light phasing should be reviewed, with lights prevented from changing to amber/red when a bus approaches. As a starting point, this should happen at all junctions where a bus is on the last kilometre or so of a journey to a bus station, traffic objective or major interchange point. Note; forget Stagecoach rhetoric, these should apply across the conurbation not just in the "regional" centre.

4. A new, single law enforcement agency should be set up to replace parking wardens, traffic wardens and - in terms of non-motorway, decriminalised vehicle based offences - the Police/BTP. With/without cctv assistance, they should drastically increase enforcement of illegal bus stop parking (as well as junction blocking and similar offences around schools). The current practice of "turning a blind eye" or otherwise avoiding bus stop blocking must be stopped and any warden doing so, should be dismissed. I realise this might effectively mean most of GM's current wardens being sacked, but there has to be an end to prejudice. All (net) monies collected from bus stop/bus lane offences should go straight into the Franchising (or similar) budget. Similarly, for cycling offences as the enforcement here would yield absolutely massive revenues in the short term. There is also the link that a very high proportion of conflict is between pavement cyclists and people waiting or alighting at bus stops. Three of the five times I've been hit by cyclists in as many years have been at bus stops. Other sources of revenue from vehicle based crime should also be pursued, but this might be more complicated legally.

5. As I believe has already been agreed in principle, buses should be redeployed based on current and anticipated demand and socio-economic need.

6. As previously emphasised, bus fares must be equalised. As a "ball park" figure and based on Adults aged 22 to retirement age; I would suggest;
Flat single fare of £2. Possibly increasing to £3 for journeys over 6 miles (10km) & for single journeys between 0001 & 0400
Day Rider/daily cap of £5
Weekly ticket (any 7 days) £17 (this would *include* Night buses as the premium proposed for single fares would not be intended to penalise Night workers)
Annual ticket; £750

These fares would be valid on all registered local bus services *and* on city centre Metrolink as already enjoyed by Rail users.
In the short term, I'm not expecting there to be more than a tiny number of Limited Stop/Express services (re) introduced, so its pointless considering an alternative charging mechanism. In the longer term this might change as it is obviously intended that traffic speeds will improve due to reduced congestion.

7. Vehicle specificaton: Age limits per se are pointless. However, all buses in GM should be Euro4 or better (this will happen on all routes into the city except via London Road anyway due to a seperate LEZ). Also all bus seats must be fully cushioned throughout (single deckers) and on the whole lower deck (including over the wheel arches) and at least 50% of the upper deck. Further, all buses should be fully re-cushioned every 5 or 6 years (based on seperately negotiated engineering overhauls to minimise cost and downtime).

8. Security and passenger facilities at bus stations must be dramatically improved. Bus Stations are for bus passengers not smokers and cyclists passing through or motorists taking short cuts. If passengers are being charged 30p to use toilet facilities the toilets should be maintained and regularly cleaned. Again, a zero tolerance for offenders should be taken, with revenues put straight into the Franchising (or similar) current budget.

9, Facility charges for Operators should be dropped (although this would logically happen anyway with GMCA control of service levels), although penalties for stand blocking would still apply. "BSOG" arrangements should be reviewed (and obviously renamed) as with Devolution it would just look like money laundering or at the very least pointless administration/bureaucracy.

10. I don't know that its possible to introduce things like workplace parking levies - and certainly not *before* bus services are considerably improved - as the opposition lobbies are just too powerful with their friends in the media. However, local councils must stop reducing parking fees on Council-run car parks. They should also be banned from promoting such anti-public transport measures in Bus Stations, as Tameside MBC did when they capped all car parking at £2 a day from last year.

And that's just "off the top of my head". I've deliberately not talked about "what it will cost" (other than revenue streams from criminals) as you only have to look at the spending/wastage on other forms of transport both locally and nationally - and indeed other areas of spending such as the cost of keeping criminals in the lap of luxury - to know that this will boil down to a question of priorities and ethics.

Aside from the fares section (no. 6), what has any of this got to do with the subject of this thread 'Greater Manchester Franchising Assessment' ? Any of the other points could be equally achieved or not under the current deregulated system. [Section 5 - re-allocating buses is surely better off being done by the Commercial operators anyway?]. This kind of forcing people to use buses, and zero tolerance smacks a bit of a totalitarian state run by bus enthusiasts trying to get back to some kind of rose tinted 1950s utopia, which I am sure never existed in Manchester (or anywhere else). And as for the sign of a deteriorating company being a bus passing your brother (post 711)..... well that sort of thing never happened in GMPTE days, did it? Zero tolerance - driver to be imprisoned, employers Operators Licence to be terminated, North Korean franchise contractor to be brought in....
 

Dentonian

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Joined
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Messages
1,192
As I've said before, I strongly disagree with this. The overall objective should be improved public transport, not propping up bus companies at the expense of the passengers, most of whom would have a better, faster journey on a tram, not forgetting the many other passengers who would use the tram but not the bus.



Realistic, I suppose. Some passengers would be very annoyed though - most single operator weekly tickets are cheaper than that, and you need a monthly ticket, because many people can't afford an annual ticket. Hardest hit would be commuters on the competitive routes, but they're going to get a kicking from regulation anyway.

I think the politicians, to the extent they've actually thought about it, might want fares lower than £2, which isn't a fantastic deal for short distances, but of course that requires money.




Politicians will never stop cutting parking charges, because it wins votes in a way public transport doesn't outside London (and many local councillors are shopkeepers or landlords fearful of ever more customers being driven away to free out of town parking).

Workplace parking levies should be easy to implement if Manchester really is the thriving commercial hub it claims to be. But it's a already been considered and rejected on the basis that it would have to cover all of GM, which the likes of Rochdale and Wigan won't, and shouldn't, ever sign up to.

Its not about "propping up the bus industry" Its about the right to access jobs and services etc without being forced to acquire private transport and *add* to congestion. The overall objective should be equal rights of access for GM tax-paying non-motorists and those without perfect physical health. Besides, your argument is more to do with Integration not Bus Reform. I've brought it up here because near 100% car ownership (except for the housebound) is not sustainable morally, economically or practically. I'm not entirely convinced about your argument that "many more" motorists would consider the tram but not the bus. The good people of Leigh and Atherton have proved that there are people with the brain power to allow independant thought to come up with a practical decision. Not everyone signs up to the British class system of elitist, image obsession dictated by a right-wing media machine.

And as I've said before, you would have to live a long way from work before the time advantage of a tram kicks in. There is virtually no time advantage to the Ashton tram compared to the 216 unless you are travelling beyond Piccadilly, so once you've added extra walking time and or connecting bus plus waiting time, you are taking longer - and that's 6 miles. You must be looking at 10+ miles before you get an appreciable time saving by tram - unless you drive to the tram stop! And that all assumes a decent level of punctuality/reliability.

I should have explained that my fare recommendations were based on an estimated Franchise implementation date of 2021/2 (an EQP would be earlier but I *still* don't see that that would work for most people). At current rates, I'm pretty sure a deregulated MegaRider would cost more than £17 in 3-4 years from now, and obviously we are talking about validity on all buses *and* city centre trams. I take your point about monthly tickets though - maybe £65.
Depending on what you class as "short", less than £2 would be "fantastic" given that again assuming current rates of increase, a 1.5 mile journey is likely to be £3 by 2022. Obviously, its swings and roundabouts for those lucky enough to live on competitive routes, bearing in mind that they are very much in a minority and comparitively poor loadings will probably see service levels cut as well, though not necessarily to pre-competition frequencies.
 

radamfi

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Messages
9,267
As I've said before, I strongly disagree with this. The overall objective should be improved public transport, not propping up bus companies at the expense of the passengers, most of whom would have a better, faster journey on a tram, not forgetting the many other passengers who would use the tram but not the bus.

I do find it quite surprising how anti-rail many bus advocates are. I think the overall goal has to be to minimise car travel, or more precisely, minimise the effect of car travel on society and the environment. Some people on here would be quite happy for all trains to be cancelled if it meant more people on buses and more bus services, even if more people ended up driving as a result. They may also be against improved cycling, even though it is very good for the environment and has a great potential to remove many short car trips, because that means fewer people on buses. Of course, some people may well have vested interests, for example if they or their friends are in the bus industry. As it can be seen from this forum, both people in favour of or against bus deregulation can be anti-rail.

On another forum I have had bitter arguments over many years with a bus owner who has been quite outspoken on that forum about the effect of trains on buses and therefore his business, even though he often runs rail replacement bus services. The Plusbus scheme is available in nearly all significant towns but the town where he is now the majority operator is not part of the scheme. It would appear that his bias against trains means that residents and visitors to that town are missing out on Plusbus.
 

Dentonian

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Aside from the fares section (no. 6), what has any of this got to do with the subject of this thread 'Greater Manchester Franchising Assessment' ? Any of the other points could be equally achieved or not under the current deregulated system. [Section 5 - re-allocating buses is surely better off being done by the Commercial operators anyway?]. This kind of forcing people to use buses, and zero tolerance smacks a bit of a totalitarian state run by bus enthusiasts trying to get back to some kind of rose tinted 1950s utopia, which I am sure never existed in Manchester (or anywhere else). And as for the sign of a deteriorating company being a bus passing your brother (post 711)..... well that sort of thing never happened in GMPTE days, did it? Zero tolerance - driver to be imprisoned, employers Operators Licence to be terminated, North Korean franchise contractor to be brought in....

I assume from your comments "RT4038" doesn't have anything whatsoever to do with politically run buses or a 1950s utopia.

As for your comments on section 5 - the point is that the Operators have done just the opposite.

I'm not sure that many of the other things can be done with existing legislation - albeit that's partly because Grayling/Hammond etc are doing everything to renege on the principle of Devolution. My point is that these other things would all help make Bus Reform a greater success and in some cases placate the commercial industry - assuming the commercial industry are genuine their press releases (eg. Bus priorities).

The point about my brother's experience is that we had come to believe this sort of thing never happened any more - at least where Stagecoach were concerned. I know its a one off, but as an occasional user, it gives a very poor impression at a time when the industry is saying "we know best; local elected politicians know nothing".
 

Dentonian

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Messages
1,192
Yes, I think a new thread exclusively for Dentonian to constantly whinge about Stagecoach in Manchester, whilst wearing his blinkers, would be an excellent idea.
Continually reading about “high fare/low car ownership areas” and how Stagecoach charge different fares on different routes does get a little tiresome on endless different threads.
I’m sure you’re a clever person Dentonian, but you really need to take off those blinkers, and get out and see the real world beyond Denton!

In hindsight, yes I have raised it on inappropriate threads, but this IS the appropriate thread. BTW, between 1996 and 2014ish you wouldn't of heard a harsh word about Stagecoach from me. Also, in the context of "high fare/low car ownership/reduced service", its far from a Denton thing. It covers the whole Oldham Road, Ashton New Road, Ashton Old Road and Hyde Road corridors; all suburbs alongside them and all satellite towns beyond the M60.
As for your "real world" comment - and again keeping it relevant to the thread, apart from it being a lazy cliche, what do you mean?
 

Dentonian

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Talk about petty prejudices.... let me enlighten you.

Actually, I did answer and then thought better of it; suffice to say, you're largely incorrect.

Your prejudices say much more about you than they do about me. Now I'd really stop making assumptions about people - you're prone to look foolish.

Care to discuss the issues etc? Great - on that basis, we can continue!

No. I did not *pre judge* I simply asked. Assuming (and I know they have been wrong with other's) your location of Somerset is accurate and I do recall you quoting Bristol to Bath services, there may be a slight point there. From memory, once the political background to Deregulation came it, it seemed that it was driven more by the inefficiency and remoteness of NBC moreso than PTEs (apart from maybe South Yorkshire). Also, the chief architect of Deregulation was Nicholas "We will end the evils of cross-subsidy" Ridley who from memory was MP for Bourton on the Water (or therabouts). Now, again, I might be wrong given it was so long ago, but I'm guessing his local NBC operator was either a Bristol managed Cheltenham & Gloucester or the whole of the Gloucestershire, Somerset, Bristol, Bath and most of Wiltshire all came under Bristol Omnibus anyway. Thus, you may live in an area where a nationalised bus company was particularly poor and now First suddenly regard Bristol as one of their jewels. So maybe, a slightly different course of history to what GM has experienced dare I say..........
 

TheGrandWazoo

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No. I did not *pre judge* I simply asked. Assuming (and I know they have been wrong with other's) your location of Somerset is accurate and I do recall you quoting Bristol to Bath services, there may be a slight point there. From memory, once the political background to Deregulation came it, it seemed that it was driven more by the inefficiency and remoteness of NBC moreso than PTEs (apart from maybe South Yorkshire). Also, the chief architect of Deregulation was Nicholas "We will end the evils of cross-subsidy" Ridley who from memory was MP for Bourton on the Water (or therabouts). Now, again, I might be wrong given it was so long ago, but I'm guessing his local NBC operator was either a Bristol managed Cheltenham & Gloucester or the whole of the Gloucestershire, Somerset, Bristol, Bath and most of Wiltshire all came under Bristol Omnibus anyway. Thus, you may live in an area where a nationalised bus company was particularly poor and now First suddenly regard Bristol as one of their jewels. So maybe, a slightly different course of history to what GM has experienced dare I say..........

Given that I have lived in Greater Manchester twice (in Stagecoach dominated Stretford, moved away and then back to First dominated Tyldesley), and that I am originally from Yorkshire, I'd advise to stop digging before you hit Australia.... :s

As for Nicholas Ridley, he was a fervent pursuer of free market economics and you should remember that bus patronage across the country was in sharp decline despite the lack of greedy shareholders, massive propping up with bus grants, masses of rate support for PTEs and municipals, and the writing off of NBC debts. Not because Bristol OC was a bit iffy.
 
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TheGrandWazoo

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I do find it quite surprising how anti-rail many bus advocates are. I think the overall goal has to be to minimise car travel, or more precisely, minimise the effect of car travel on society and the environment. Some people on here would be quite happy for all trains to be cancelled if it meant more people on buses and more bus services, even if more people ended up driving as a result. They may also be against improved cycling, even though it is very good for the environment and has a great potential to remove many short car trips, because that means fewer people on buses. Of course, some people may well have vested interests, for example if they or their friends are in the bus industry. As it can be seen from this forum, both people in favour of or against bus deregulation can be anti-rail.

Indeed - it is a multi-faceted argument. My view is that it should be pragmatic and realistic. For instance, if you were dogmatic about it, you would have the X5 running from Cambridge but not to Oxford - people would be obliged to change onto the train at Bicester.

I think you'd see that as lunacy (and it is perhaps an extreme example) but there needs to be improved integration without the tail wagging the dog.
 

Dentonian

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I do find it quite surprising how anti-rail many bus advocates are. I think the overall goal has to be to minimise car travel, or more precisely, minimise the effect of car travel on society and the environment. Some people on here would be quite happy for all trains to be cancelled if it meant more people on buses and more bus services, even if more people ended up driving as a result. They may also be against improved cycling, even though it is very good for the environment and has a great potential to remove many short car trips, because that means fewer people on buses. Of course, some people may well have vested interests, for example if they or their friends are in the bus industry. As it can be seen from this forum, both people in favour of or against bus deregulation can be anti-rail.

Interesting take, given the rail lobby and their media cohorts hate buses - but are quite happy for the bus industry to bail them out when their trains and trams implode - regularly, only for their customers to "diss" the industry coming to their aid. I wonder how many Stagecoach journeys will fail to run over the next fortnight whilst the Eccles/Cornbrook line is replaced by dozens of buses (peak hour). And that's assuming Sheffield Supertram aren't on strike again!
The problem is you & 158756 etc want the bus industry to be diluted so much that people have to acquire cars to access your inefficient, unreliable trams and trains. Surely, that has to increase car use not reduce it. Perhaps the problem is that the increase in congestion (as is already the case) will be hidden in the suburbs away from your hip, trendy city centre. Rail has its place, but it is not to abstract partonage from buses. Also, it has to dramatically improve its performance. Of course, the whole point on this thread is that rail (and especially Metrolink) does represent a great threat to some commercial bus services. If it takes revenue from them, then they will deterioriate faster, forcing more and more to acquire a car - as its too far to walk to a Rail Station for an appallingly unreliable train.
As for cycling - now you've raised it (and Metrolink and HS2/3/4 and Crossrail 2 and £31k a year per jailbird) THAT's why I'm not going to get into an argument about a few tens of millions of quid to improve oppurtunities and access for hundreds of thousands of car-less adults and hopefully drastically reduce congestion and even crime, personal debt etc. So yes, as for cycling, the reason people are against wasting massive amounts of money on cycling (£1.5 BILLION is it Mr. Boardman is demanding?) is because it will be a total waste whilst also disproving the adage "crime doesn't pay". Has the Oxford Road cycle lane stopped speeding cyclists going through the ped-x outside the MRI? NO. Has it reduced cycling on the pavement between the MRI and the city centre? NO. Did the Gorton cycle lane ever get used by a cyclist? NO.
 

radamfi

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The problem is you & 158756 etc want the bus industry to be diluted so much that people have to acquire cars to access your inefficient, unreliable trams and trains. Surely, that has to increase car use not reduce it. Perhaps the problem is that the increase in congestion (as is already the case) will be hidden in the suburbs away from your hip, trendy city centre. Rail has its place, but it is not to abstract partonage from buses. Also, it has to dramatically improve its performance. Of course, the whole point on this thread is that rail (and especially Metrolink) does represent a great threat to some commercial bus services. If it takes revenue from them, then they will deterioriate faster, forcing more and more to acquire a car - as its too far to walk to a Rail Station for an appallingly unreliable train.

Is there evidence anywhere in the world that there is more car use as a result of an improved rail network? It would appear your only experience of an improved rail network is in Greater Manchester. But you don't want bus deregulation, therefore in a post deregulation GM there would be no such thing as "commercial bus services", so what you are complaining about doesn't have to apply. If you look at Croydon where regulation enabled buses to complement the new tram network, the remaining buses are still frequent and well used. It would be a very bold claim to say that there are now more car journeys in the area as a result of the tram building.

I'm in Amsterdam this weekend to check out the new network as a result of the opening of a new metro line. Since the opening of the new metro line last Sunday, many bus routes have been truncated or diverted to the new metro stations. Tram lines have also been rerouted and reduced. You would no doubt disapprove of this. In fact, a good proportion of readers will disapprove, as some bus journeys have been replaced by a metro for just one stop, and may well see this as an early 80s Gateshead-style "enforced interchange". But is this really going to result in more car use? The connecting bus services are frequent. Many public transport journeys are now going to be quicker than before.

Has the Oxford Road cycle lane stopped speeding cyclists going through the ped-x outside the MRI? NO. Has it reduced cycling on the pavement between the MRI and the city centre? NO. Did the Gorton cycle lane ever get used by a cyclist? NO.

Again, you are using examples from Greater Manchester, hardly the best known example of cycle excellence. It is clear from the Netherlands, Denmark and parts of Germany that heavy usage of cycling is possible if you build proper infrastructure.
 

Stan Drews

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As for your "real world" comment - and again keeping it relevant to the thread, apart from it being a lazy cliche, what do you mean?

I mean the real world where the price of virtually everything is determined by market forces, which might help you to understand why your beloved Stagecoach adopt such a policy in Manchester (Greater, or otherwise!), and stop banging on and on about it, as if it was something unusual. It isn’t!
 

PermitToTravel

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The problem is you & 158756 etc want the bus industry to be diluted so much that people have to acquire cars to access your inefficient, unreliable trams and trains. Surely, that has to increase car use not reduce it. Perhaps the problem is that the increase in congestion (as is already the case) will be hidden in the suburbs away from your hip, trendy city centre. Rail has its place, but it is not to abstract partonage from buses. Also, it has to dramatically improve its performance. Of course, the whole point on this thread is that rail (and especially Metrolink) does represent a great threat to some commercial bus services. If it takes revenue from them, then they will deterioriate faster, forcing more and more to acquire a car - as its too far to walk to a Rail Station for an appallingly unreliable train.

I love that your Schrödinger's trams are somehow so unreliable that everyone has bought cars rather than travel on them; yet still manage to abstract enough revenue from buses to cause them to become unviable...
 

Dentonian

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I love that your Schrödinger's trams are somehow so unreliable that everyone has bought cars rather than travel on them; yet still manage to abstract enough revenue from buses to cause them to become unviable...
Nothing to do with their unreliability - it's their remoteness.
 

ivanhoe

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I was pleasantly surprised to read that in the last 2 years, bus patronage has increased in the Liverpool area. Whist comparing Manchester and Liverpool's transport needs is like comparing apples and oranges, the quality bus network is part of the way forward in my opinion. It is 2018 now and all of the assets and expertise of the bus industry are mainly in the hands of the Private Sector. Surely it is not beyond the wit of man or women to come up with a partnership that encompasses the requirements of local authorities and the needs of the shareholders.I stress the word partnership rather than the London model.
 

Dentonian

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I mean the real world where the price of virtually everything is determined by market forces, which might help you to understand why your beloved Stagecoach adopt such a policy in Manchester (Greater, or otherwise!), and stop banging on and on about it, as if it was something unusual. It isn’t!
Public services should not be left to market forces. Are Greater London's fares determined by Market forces? Are Britain's railways determined by Market Forces? No!
 

Dentonian

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I was pleasantly surprised to read that in the last 2 years, bus patronage has increased in the Liverpool area. Whist comparing Manchester and Liverpool's transport needs is like comparing apples and oranges, the quality bus network is part of the way forward in my opinion. It is 2018 now and all of the assets and expertise of the bus industry are mainly in the hands of the Private Sector. Surely it is not beyond the wit of man or women to come up with a partnership that encompasses the requirements of local authorities and the needs of the shareholders.I stress the word partnership rather than the London model.
I note you mention LAs & shareholders but not passengers. I also note you say Liverpool and not Merseyside. The question is has this moderate increase been across all routes or does a big increase on QP routes mask a reduction elsewhere.
 

Bletchleyite

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Is there evidence anywhere in the world that there is more car use as a result of an improved rail network?

Metrolink is proven at getting people out of cars. Despite what I would say was a very dodgy on the cheap start that very much envied the S-Bahn at the other end of the M62 (well, they envied enough to copy the yellow livery!) it's now a successful European-style Stadtbahn that continues to grow.

Yes, the seats are a bit rubbish (and I believe that'd Dentonian's main issue with them) but that's just about the easiest thing to fix.
 

ivanhoe

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I note you mention LAs & shareholders but not passengers. I also note you say Liverpool and not Merseyside. The question is has this moderate increase been across all routes or does a big increase on QP routes mask a reduction elsewhere.
I said Liverpool area which would encompass Liverpool City Region which is Merseyside plus Halton. Local Authorities are passenger representatives. Both Arriva and Stagecoach have recorded increase in passenger numbers. If you look at a map of Merseyside bus routes, the area is well served by buses. Being on the coast helps as well . The City Centre is a natural tetminus.There are a number of routes which cross the City without touching the city centre as well. If you can't make a buck in Merseyside on the buses, there's something wrong, in my opinion. I actually think Merseytravel do a good job in spite of having a toy to play with, namely Merseyrail.
 
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