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Manchester Airport railway station, discussion and ideas

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northwichcat

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The route via Altrincham carries quite heavy freight traffic, most serving the chemical works around Northwich. Some of it runs to/from the Peak District quarries via the old Midland line to Hazel Grove and some goes through Stockport and via Denton. An extension of the airport line to join the mid-Cheshire line would involve a tunnel under the airport, and even if freight was allowed it wouldn't have easy access to either of those routes.

There aren't as many limestone trains to the chemical works as there used to be. However, the total number of freight trains have increased due to the rubbish trains (that's the trains carrying rubbish for incineration, not the Pacers ;)) and the Drax biomass trains.
 
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xotGD

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Just to clarify, when I suggested a 'Ringway Express' I didn't mean that this would be in place of existing long distance services, but as a combination with them. Not having a direct service from Leeds or Huddersfield (for example) would be just plain daft.
 

B&I

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If Metrolink is an urban stadtbahn, it shouldn't be treated as the main form of transport in a conurbation of c 3 million people, connecting a core city of c 1/2 million with satelite towns with populations approaching 100,000
 

B&I

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The route via Altrincham carries quite heavy freight traffic, most serving the chemical works around Northwich. Some of it runs to/from the Peak District quarries via the old Midland line to Hazel Grove and some goes through Stockport and via Denton. An extension of the airport line to join the mid-Cheshire line would involve a tunnel under the airport, and even if freight was allowed it wouldn't have easy access to either of those routes.


Fine, put tram trains on it as well. These really aren't insurmountable problems
 

frodshamfella

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The tail is wagging the dog, as perfectly illustrated by the fact that we have to have this thread because of how much ire any criticism of Manchester Airport's privileged status attracts on other threads.

The lack of terminating capacity in central Manchester is in many ways a red herring - more trains could run through to other destinations. The various Greater Manchester authorities own the airport and have a financial stake in promoting passenger numbers, and use their influence over land transport policy to do this, particularly at the expense of the north's other airport, most of which aren't rail-connected. So, we end up with a situation where the whole north of England network is distorted around serving a single destination, resulting in a situation where hundreds of millions are spent to bring about substantially less reliable services. In other words, everyone else (including people trabelling to and from the infinitely more important destination of central Manchester) suffers to facilitate the relatively small number of people travelling to Manchester Airport, and the financial ambitions of its owners.

The whole situation is a joke, but this post will no doubt shortly be swamped by the usual suspects for whom airport growth is a totemic symbol of Manchester's supposed superiority over every other provincal city in Britain. These same people seem not to worry that their pet megalopolis has a local transport network which is pathetic by the standards of any advanced country, or that services to the infinitely more important destination of central Manchester (somewhere tens of thousands travel to or through every day, rather than once or twice a year) are being wrecked so the airport can boast about how many direct services it has (no matter how painfully slow and unreliable they are). This airport-related penis-waving is frankly infantile.

Having said all this, if this is the situation we are in, we should at least try to ameliorate the damage caused to the rest of the network by building the western link. If direct services from Warrington and Liverpool were diverted that way, and services from Southport, Blackpool, Cumbria and Scotland were re-arranged so services alternated between going to the airport and Piccadilly first (before carrying on round the loop and back to their origin), it would reduce the congestion in central Manchester. It would also facilitate a better route for regional services from Manchester to Chester and North Wales, which could run via the Styal line to the airport then via an improved mid-Cheshire line on the other side. (Some services from this direction could continue to go via Chat Moss and Victoria, but become longer-distance services across the Pennines, as is partially planned anyway).

Spending on this link should be made conditional on funding either direct rail links, or at least useable people mover-type connections, to Liverpool, Leeds-Bradford and East Midlands, and long-distance services at Newcastle. If air transport is so vital, it's about time there waa a level playing field between competing airports, rather than the entire ground transport system being skewed in favour of one place

I always fly from Liverpool Airport where ever possible, so much more pleasant to use. A rail link to there for the future is what I'd like to see.
 

B&I

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I always fly from Liverpool Airport where ever possible, so much more pleasant to use. A rail link to there for the future is what I'd like to see.


I think it's still permissible to be stoned to death on this forum for blasphemous comments like that
 

northwichcat

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I think it's still permissible to be stoned to death on this forum for blasphemous comments like that

A certain resident poster from North Wales certainly won't like that comment.

About 10 years ago I used Liverpool more than Manchester, despite being closer to Manchester as Liverpool had a lot of cheapish fares to decent European destinations. For example, when I flew to Berlin there was a direct Easyjet flight from Liverpool but no direct flight from Manchester with any airline. However, now there's not a lot of cheapish fares from Manchester and aren't really any major European cities which have flights from Liverpool but not Manchester, unless you count places like Vilnius.
 

frodshamfella

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A certain resident poster from North Wales certainly won't like that comment.

About 10 years ago I used Liverpool more than Manchester, despite being closer to Manchester as Liverpool had a lot of cheapish fares to decent European destinations. For example, when I flew to Berlin there was a direct Easyjet flight from Liverpool but no direct flight from Manchester with any airline. However, now there's not a lot of cheapish fares from Manchester and aren't really any major European cities which have flights from Liverpool but not Manchester, unless you count places like Vilnius.

It is just Manchester Airport can be pretty awful to pass through.
 
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mmh

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I think it's still permissible to be stoned to death on this forum for blasphemous comments like that

I'll agree with both of you on that, I've only used Liverpool airport once so this is pretty anecdotal but it was a far nicer experience than Manchester.

Smaller airports I guess will always have less faff, but the big airports in this country (so yeah, just the London ones and Manchester) seem deliberately designed to create faff.

No doubt they'd argue that they need to cater for all their passengers but the whole shopping centre you can't avoid experience is awful.

It's not needed to slow passengers down or provide space for them, it's just to make money.

I've not been to many large airports in other countries, but none that I have been to have been as awful as Heathrow, where even the newest terminal is really awful in my opinion.
 

Agent_Squash

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I've not been to many large airports in other countries, but none that I have been to have been as awful as Heathrow, where even the newest terminal is really awful in my opinion.

They need the money to pay for that runway from somewhere - and it's no coincidence Heathrow is the most profitable airport in the world...
 

DarloRich

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It's impossible for there to be direct trains from everywhere to everywhere. However many direct services you have, there'll always be towns (maybe even cities) without a direct service.

I'd say the bigger issue is lack of a proper 24/7 service. I'd be happy to actually be able to get a train (including changing) to get me to the airport in time for the early morning departure bulk, but it's simply not possible as trains from my area don't start early enough. The earliest aircraft I could reasonably hope to be in time for (allowing for short delays etc) would be around 10/11am. That's hopeless when so many flights take off between 7 and 9am.

We might be happy to jump on and off trains - real people aren't. They want to get their bags on the train and get off at the airport. I know lots of people from the north east who use the TPE service to get to and from Manchester Airport at the start or end of the holiday. They get the train because it is direct. I suspect many would simply pay for a cab otherwise. The cost wouldn't be that much different.

That said, of course, a 24 hr service would be useful to many

Exactly. Can you imagine after the timetabling fiasco of this summer how it would be spun that the next improvement is to axe all the direct trains to the airport, many that have run since the 1990s.

or just removing long standing direct journeys used by quite a lot of people.
 

si404

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The Greengauge post-HS2 report pushed for an extension of the Airport branch to the Mid-Cheshire via the HS2 station.

However, it was more interested in Sheffield-Hazel Grove-Altrincham-Airport-Crewe services, rather than Cheshire-Airport-Manchester services.
 

tbtc

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Interesting that people mention Metrolink.

Imagine if Metrolink decided that a popular leisure destination (e.g. Manchester Airport) was so important that every branch of Metrolink ought to have (at least) an hourly service to the Airport - even if it meant reversing in the city centre (e.g. the Eccles branch).

That'd be obviously daft - the network works much better with simple/frequent services on each branch. Same goes with Meadowhall (on Sheffield Supertram) or Newcastle Airport (on the T&W Metro).

Regrettably, the heavy rail approach in NW England seems to be to try to give everywhere an hourly service to everywhere - especially if that place is Manchester Airport.

So not only do we have a suboptimal service from Piccadilly to the Airport (nine trains per hour but with gaps of up to seventeen minutes because they are all long distance - an average load of thirtysomething passengers at the Airport), but we have all of the local lines tied up in a knot that ensures that any disruption on one line is spread across Lancashire and (due to the need to maintain existing paths to/from the Airport) other routes can't have their timetables easily recast because the nine paths to the Airport set everything else in stone.

The tail is wagging the dog.

My ideal solution (without spending huge sums on 15/16 at Piccadilly/ electrifying other lines/ grade separation etc)? Split all of the lines up to give places well balanced frequent services to Manchester.

So, as an example, all through services from Stalybridge (Leeds/ Huddersfield) run through to Earlestown (Chester/ Liverpool)...
...all through services from Warrington Central (Liverpool) run through to Stockport (Buxton, Hope Valley)...
...all through services from the Calder Valley (Todmorden/ Bradford) run through to Atherton (Southport) or Darwen (Blackburn)...
...and all services from the Airport run through to Bolton (Wigan, Preston).
Services from Glossop/ New Mills to terminate at Piccadilly (along with a large chunk of Stockport services).

That'd give the Airport line six/eight services per hour, half of which would be all stops (Burnage etc get a terrible level of service due to the need to accommodate all of the non-stop Airport services on the branch), it'd mean all Airport services leaving from the same platform at Piccadilly (13), disruption on one line wouldn't bring down the entire network, passengers would have a much simpler service (rather than the problem of some trains leaving from Pic and some from Vic)... all it'd need would be a couple of platforms in Salford so that passengers on a York - Liverpool service could connect to a Blackpool - Airport service. With properly spaced out services on each branch it'd be much easier to accommodate the number of services through pressure points like Oxford Road.

Instead they've spent huge money on the Ordsal Chord which locks in the problem of the Airport as well as mucking up Oxford Road by cramming in lots of randomly timed services. So we'll go on mucking services up for everyday passengers with badly co-ordinated services (e.g. Manchester to Sheffield is generally at xx:19 and xx:42 rather than half hourly) all for the sake of people in Cleethorpes/ Middlesbrough etc having a direct Airport train for that annual trip. Who cares about the regular passengers - the "nice to have" of a direct Airport service for infrequent travellers is much more important.
 

mmh

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They need the money to pay for that runway from somewhere - and it's no coincidence Heathrow is the most profitable airport in the world...

Yes, they hope to get that money from the taxpayer with the awful argument that Heathrow can't possibly survive without expansion as a "hub" airport bigger than any other because otherwise our economy will collapse because, err, people might change planes in Amsterdam and not spend a penny in the Netherlands rather than not spending a penny in Britain. The people who benefit from transiting passengers are the airports and airlines.

I've long wished for a politician to be brave enough to temper the "it's necessary for the country" (perhaps it is) line about Heathrow expansion with a proper questioning of who it would benefit. Not holding my breath on that.
 

snowball

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I believe there was allowances when the airport station was first built that would allow the line to be extended past the bugger stops
Is that a reference to some of the warring contributors to this thread?

so that area behind the block ends is not used for anything specific. Such a link would connect into the Stockport-Chester line, and if built would allow direct connection to Chester and North Wales.

The original platforms at the airport station are those now known as 2 and 3. Any extension of the airport branch to meet the mid-Cheshire line would have to be an extension of platforms 1 and 2 and would have to begin by curving to the left to avoid the station building. Joseph Locke once posted some details about the curves required (probably on Skyscrapercity rather than on here). If I remember correctly, half the length of platform 2 would have to be realigned towards platform 1.

The line would then have to go under the airport apron in a cut-and-cover tunnel.

An alignment has been protected for such an extension. A couple of years ago the airport tried to drop it from its forward plans but was lobbied to keep it in the plan.


The Greengauge post-HS2 report pushed for an extension of the Airport branch to the Mid-Cheshire via the HS2 station.
I doubt that would be practicable. It would have to curve sharply to the right so that by the time it got near the HS2 station it would be pointing almost north, and would then have to curve sharply left again.
 

mmh

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(e.g. Manchester to Sheffield is generally at xx:19 and xx:42 rather than half hourly)

Eh? That looks pretty half hourly to me. Seven minutes, what's the problem there?
 

Greybeard33

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My ideal solution (without spending huge sums on 15/16 at Piccadilly/ electrifying other lines/ grade separation etc)? Split all of the lines up to give places well balanced frequent services to Manchester.

So, as an example, all through services from Stalybridge (Leeds/ Huddersfield) run through to Earlestown (Chester/ Liverpool)...
...all through services from Warrington Central (Liverpool) run through to Stockport (Buxton, Hope Valley)...
...all through services from the Calder Valley (Todmorden/ Bradford) run through to Atherton (Southport) or Darwen (Blackburn)...
...and all services from the Airport run through to Bolton (Wigan, Preston).
Services from Glossop/ New Mills to terminate at Piccadilly (along with a large chunk of Stockport services).

(snip)... all it'd need would be a couple of platforms in Salford so that passengers on a York - Liverpool service could connect to a Blackpool - Airport service.
So you would have all the trains from the Airport crossing, at grade:
- all the trains from the CLC (Warrington Central) line, at Castlefield Jn;
- then all the trains to/from the Chat Moss (Earlestown) line, at Ordsall Lane Jn;
- and finally all the trains to/from the Atherton line, at the Windsor Bridge Jns!

Words fail....

And Salford Central station, where "a couple of [extra] platforms" could serve Victoria - Liverpool trains, is about a mile from Salford Crescent station, which is where Airport - Bolton trains could stop!
 

Ships

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There aren't as many limestone trains to the chemical works as there used to be. However, the total number of freight trains have increased due to the rubbish trains (that's the trains carrying rubbish for incineration, not the Pacers ;)) and the Drax biomass trains.

The biomass being the real killer here, set to increase going forwards too.
 

frodshamfella

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We might be happy to jump on and off trains - real people aren't. They want to get their bags on the train and get off at the airport. I know lots of people from the north east who use the TPE service to get to and from Manchester Airport at the start or end of the holiday. They get the train because it is direct. I suspect many would simply pay for a cab otherwise. The cost wouldn't be that much different.

That said, of course, a 24 hr service would be useful to many
@
or just removing long standing direct journeys used by quite a lot of people.

I agree if you have luggage and maybe kids with you, really you wouldn't want to change.
 

Bantamzen

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We might be happy to jump on and off trains - real people aren't. They want to get their bags on the train and get off at the airport. I know lots of people from the north east who use the TPE service to get to and from Manchester Airport at the start or end of the holiday. They get the train because it is direct. I suspect many would simply pay for a cab otherwise. The cost wouldn't be that much different.

That said, of course, a 24 hr service would be useful to many



or just removing long standing direct journeys used by quite a lot of people.

Ah, a voice of reason amongst the canine related clichés. Yes people, real people travelling to the growing number of destinations Manchester Airport offers want as few changes as possible, especially as the airport bound trains may sy not be the first one they use to get there. The obession about reducing the service to a clock face shuttle service has previously reached fever pitch. But the railways don't act to serve the desires of enthuiasts to see nice, neat timetables and lots of connections so they can enjoy their hobby and ride different reaction along the route. They serve people needing to get from A to B as easily and preferably as cheaply as possible. And as Manchester serves most of the North of England, well you figure it out...
 

Altfish

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I always fly from Liverpool Airport where ever possible, so much more pleasant to use. A rail link to there for the future is what I'd like to see.
Which is fine, I've come across TPE customers heading to Liverpool South Parkway and bemoaning a lack of direct service and having to catch a bus/taxi to Airport.
The area is big enough for more than one airport.
 

Altfish

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The biomass being the real killer here, set to increase going forwards too.
Is it really?
The biomass trains join the mid Cheshire at Hartford and the Airport Western link would join at Mobberley, it is all double track. It currently has one passenger train per hour plus on average one freight per hour; ok, the passenger service is due to go to two per hour. It would be easy to fit two ATW (or whoever) trains per hour to the (via the) Airport. In fact if ATW were operating on the line the second train per hour (so long as it goes to Piccadilly) would not be as essential.
 

Agent_Squash

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For those complaining about the timetable in the Picc-Airport corridor, remember that not all the services intended to go that way are there yet :)
 

Ianno87

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I agree if you have luggage and maybe kids with you, really you wouldn't want to change.

Exactly. Remember, for a lot of families (luggage/kids, etc.) a drive to the airport in convenience is an attractive proposition, even with airport parking costs. Manchester is well served by the motorway network(if congested)

Would 'the railway' really like to lose some lucrative revenue simply for operational convenience?
 

edwin_m

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Yes, they hope to get that money from the taxpayer with the awful argument that Heathrow can't possibly survive without expansion as a "hub" airport bigger than any other because otherwise our economy will collapse because, err, people might change planes in Amsterdam and not spend a penny in the Netherlands rather than not spending a penny in Britain. The people who benefit from transiting passengers are the airports and airlines.

I've long wished for a politician to be brave enough to temper the "it's necessary for the country" (perhaps it is) line about Heathrow expansion with a proper questioning of who it would benefit. Not holding my breath on that.
From the public policy point of view the benefit of a hub airport is that connecting flights provide more passengers than you would expect from the local population alone. With more passengers it becomes more viable to provide greater frequency of flights and/or more choice of destinations - such as smaller cities in China where there might be business opportunities. This benefits the local people and the local economy as well as the connecting passengers.

However it's fair to say that this benefit accrues to the area surrounding Heathrow rather than the whole country. Someone in Manchester wanting to do business in the same small Chinese city probably wouldn't have a direct flight, and it wouldn't make much differenct to them whether the connection was at Heathrow, Amsterdam, Dubai or wherever.
 
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