How will GTR cope with Brighton Pride crowds?

[JonathanH]

Thameslink would require more units to be out at night times, which would need more staff to work night shifts.
At 3am, there are enough paths available.

Of course there are paths - but there is also maintenance required - such that the line is to be shut on something like 30 weekends over the next year.

Mind you, the Gibb report suggested that Gatwick has a perfectly adequate coach service in the early hours and there is no reason to run overnight trains - something similar could be applied to Brighton.

 

[yorksrob]

Or a service to Brighton could just be run via Horsham instead.

 

[Esker-pades]

3 routes: Direct, via Lewes and via Horsham. Surely they wouldn't close all 3 at once so some sort of service could run?

 

[LAX54]

The amount of posts on here, that show many do not have a clue how the Railway works is quite astounding !

 

[6Gman]

They also appear to have been running additional trains, but again they would presumably have been limited by the availability of crew and particularly drivers. There are I guess 2 issues there, whether drivers are willing to do extra work in the middle of night on a weekend which has lovely weather to enjoy, and indeed whether drivers are able to do so, due to their need to be available ti run the peak hours service on Monday morning.

This. I am (just about ) old enough to remember "Bank Hall Class 5 and men" being provided, on an almost unlimited basis, for Summer Saturday Liverpool - Blackpool/Morecambe extras.

But no more. Perhaps the old idea of "Seat Regulation" should be revived. Book your place on the train before 5pm or you won't be allowed on the station.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

The amount of posts on here, that show many do not have a clue how the Railway works is quite astounding !

"My idea for .....Brighton traffic"

 

[jon0844]

I think the fact that Brighton usually has a very good service means rather too many people have just assumed they'd have no trouble getting home, even if they left it until the last train of the night/morning. Even a 12 car 700 can't work miracles!

Having been there today, there are enough posters (and on-train messages, platform screen messages at other stations) to warn people that it is/was going to be extremely busy.

Frankly, if I was going to see a gig that ended around 2300, I'd have been looking at booking a hotel in Brighton or nearby. Or just planning to stay up and get back in the morning. It's not as if there aren't enough places in Brighton to go in the small hours.

 

[yorksrob]

To be honest, of I were warned that a late night train was going to be "extremely busy" my assumption would be that I might have to stand, and that I wouldn't be able to get to the bog. I wouldn't assume that would mean that I'd be kipping on the beach.

As for Broccoli Spears finishing her gig at 23:00, pretty much every gig in every city finishes at this sort of time (if not later, in the case of the late Ken Dodd) so this shouldn't come as a shock to anyone either. City public transport should be geared to this as a matter of course (although everyone coming home from the pride march was obviously fairly exceptional).

 

[al78]

I love Brighton Pride but its also potentially grown too large. We can handle 30000 football fans with ease but they know what they're doing.

Another event that is going the way of the Lewes bonfire, trying to make it bigger and better every year, completely failing to appreciate that doing this is unsustainable (or not caring because the problems are dumped on other people).

If you try to attract bigger and bigger numbers every year, you shouldn't be surprised when you get bigger numbers, who all want to get there and home again on a road and railway network that isn't getting bigger every year. Something has to give. The fact is that there is an awful lot of people living with easy access to Brighton, there are an awful lot of people living in the south east full stop, there just isn't space for everyone to get to a relatively small area without problems developing. Maybe they should consider toning it down over the coming years.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

I think the fact that Brighton usually has a very good service means rather too many people have just assumed they'd have no trouble getting home, even if they left it until the last train of the night/morning. Even a 12 car 700 can't work miracles!

Having been there today, there are enough posters (and on-train messages, platform screen messages at other stations) to warn people that it is/was going to be extremely busy.

Frankly, if I was going to see a gig that ended around 2300, I'd have been looking at booking a hotel in Brighton or nearby. Or just planning to stay up and get back in the morning. It's not as if there aren't enough places in Brighton to go in the small hours.

Good luck in finding accommodation - unless booked about 6 months in advance. In this weather - staying over on the beach or whatever , could have been an option that was "do-able" , but really in this sort of major planned event (which is tremendous news for the local economy etc) - some hard advance planning on (a) ensuring the main line is block free (b) Absolutely maximising the number of extra services you could run towards London is imperative - whatever it costs - and getting a derogation off the DfT to maybe thin out at some other times to create resources, or (as I have done in the past) pay whatever you have to to get the staff out , ideally with their managers out with them to show support (as I have done ,many times for Wembley , New Years Eve , the death of Diana etc)

Yes it made the headlines (as ever) , yes there were dissapointed and delayed people , but everyone got there and most seemed to have got back. (at some time) - so the railway did something right.

Good luck with trying to tone down the event ! - people want to get out there and enjoy , commune etc

 

[Carlisle]

Another event that is going the way of the Lewes bonfire, trying to make it bigger and better every year, completely failing to appreciate that doing this is unsustainable (or not caring because the problems are dumped on other people).

If you try to attract bigger and bigger numbers every year, you shouldn't be surprised when you get bigger numbers, who all want to get there and home again on a road and railway network that isn't getting bigger every year. Something has to give. The fact is that there is an awful lot of people living with easy access to Brighton, there are an awful lot of people living in the south east full stop, there just isn't space for everyone to get to a relatively small area without problems developing. Maybe they should consider toning it down over the coming years.

I agree with the above, I just hope whatever solution the experts ultimately find, is a wee bit more imaginative than simply making everything advance/ non transferable ticket only, via online ballots etc etc .

 

[winks]

I’m sure the same thing happened last year too at Brighton. Crowds surging towards the platforms and police having a nightmare.

 

[Robertj21a]

Many people going to Brighton will probably just stay around late night bars and clubs until the morning trains start. Few will book (or be able to afford) hotels for the night. It was inevitable that Britney would bring out much bigger crowds than usual. That, coupled with the attractions of Brighton & Hove anyway, would have caused crowd problems at the railway station even if it had been cool and dull. There's only so much the railway can do, even with good advance planning and I'm not sure there are any easy solutions - Brighton is good at big events but it's a compact area with little spare capacity (of anything !).

 

[LAX54]

Upwards of 50,000 leaving at the same time, was never going to work, anyway next year I hear there will be a Hetro Pride event too !......well fairs fair

 

[winks]

Hotels we’re charging upwards of £500 for 2 nights in Brighton. There were premier inn rooms available in the afternoon yesterday for £180 a night lol. If your going to go to pride never rely on the last train home. It’s just not guna happen. Another thing - GTR put on extra services later into the night well they’ll be doing the same next year so might aswell build this into the planning and offer this officially, rather than laying on some thing in an emergency.

 

[6Gman]

Hotels we’re charging upwards of £500 for 2 nights in Brighton. There were premier inn rooms available in the afternoon yesterday for £180 a night lol. If your going to go to pride never rely on the last train home. It’s just not guna happen. Another thing - GTR put on extra services later into the night well they’ll be doing the same next year so might aswell build this into the planning and offer this officially, rather than laying on some thing in an emergency.

If you advertise last train at 0100 (but keep a spare up your sleeve for an 0120) an awful lot will head for the 0100.
If you advertise last train at 0120 (without another up your sleeve) they will head for the 0120 and the 0100 will run half empty!

I return to my option of Seat Regulation. Which, ironically, was widely used in "olden times" even though extra resources were more readily available.

 

[RT4038]

The amount of posts on here, that show many do not have a clue how the Railway works is quite astounding !

Judging by the amount of posts on here, that show the Railway doesn't have a clue how life works outside of their subsidised bubble is quite astounding !

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Any careful plan will have another "standby" train for use , after the last advertised one in an event like this.

 

[jayah]

Mind you, the Gibb report suggested that Gatwick has a perfectly adequate coach service in the early hours and there is no reason to run overnight trains - something similar could be applied to Brighton.

I am not sure it did.

Much of what he proposed has been done - using GTR to service the overnight railway rather than Southern at Victoria. He argued probably correctly that the overnight railway was over supplied and was a legacy of the competition between 3 separate franchises that became enshrined in franchise agreements instead of being rationalised. There railway isn't very good at rationalising it's timetable.

He also suggested the Redhill loop not be served Sun-Thur in the small hours to allow overnight trains to alternate between routes at will. But a comprehensive overnight timetable was produced in Appendix 3.

There is massive demand from Gatwick into London even past midnight and scheduled landings most of the night. The timing of demand is also determined by flight delays and passport queues. Final takeoff is about 11.30 but Gibb only graphed outbound passenger numbers for some reason.

 

[Mugby]

Another event that is going the way of the Lewes bonfire, trying to make it bigger and better every year, completely failing to appreciate that doing this is unsustainable (or not caring because the problems are dumped on other people).

If you try to attract bigger and bigger numbers every year, you shouldn't be surprised when you get bigger numbers, who all want to get there and home again on a road and railway network that isn't getting bigger every year. Something has to give. The fact is that there is an awful lot of people living with easy access to Brighton, there are an awful lot of people living in the south east full stop, there just isn't space for everyone to get to a relatively small area without problems developing. Maybe they should consider toning it down over the coming years.

Is trying to make it bigger and better each year anything to do with vested interests wanting to make more and more money out of it?

 

[jon0844]

Hotels we’re charging upwards of £500 for 2 nights in Brighton. There were premier inn rooms available in the afternoon yesterday for £180 a night lol. If your going to go to pride never rely on the last train home. It’s just not guna happen. Another thing - GTR put on extra services later into the night well they’ll be doing the same next year so might aswell build this into the planning and offer this officially, rather than laying on some thing in an emergency.

My 'trick' is getting a hotel a reasonable distance away. Perhaps one or two stations away, or an affordable cab ride. Obviously won't work all the time (particularly school holiday time) but as Pride was over three days, I am sure many would have wanted to be there more than just one.

And I assume Pride 2019 has a date so booking ahead might be good (I realise some hotels won't take bookings that far ahead but independents might).

Let's face it though. Brighton is never cheap at the best of times.

 

[Robertj21a]

My 'trick' is getting a hotel a reasonable distance away. Perhaps one or two stations away, or an affordable cab ride. Obviously won't work all the time (particularly school holiday time) but as Pride was over three days, I am sure many would have wanted to be there more than just one.

And I assume Pride 2019 has a date so booking ahead might be good (I realise some hotels won't take bookings that far ahead but independents might).

Let's face it though. Brighton is never cheap at the best of times.

At this time of year around Brighton your 'reasonable distance away' could be 20-30 miles.

 

[Robertj21a]

Any careful plan will have another "standby" train for use , after the last advertised one in an event like this.

....and, hopefully, another 2 or 3 'just in case'.

 

[sprunt]

I’m sure the same thing happened last year too at Brighton. Crowds surging towards the platforms and police having a nightmare.

I travelled from London last year for a concert that would have finished at about the same time (significantly smaller than Britney, it was at West Hill Hall) and although crowded, it wasn't a shambles like this appears to have been. The queuing was well organised, and even coped with a full train being cancelled about 20 minutes after its scheduled departure time as they couldn't find anyone to drive it. I got on the next train without a huge problem, and it was standing room only but certainly not dangerously full.

 

[jon0844]

The BBC says 57000 watched Britney. Add to that those who were in pubs and clubs, plus those not involved with Pride, and I do wonder how many trains would have needed to be run to get everyone home between 2300 and 0200?

 

[Esker-pades]

The BBC says 57000 watched Britney. Add to that those who were in pubs and clubs, plus those not involved with Pride, and I do wonder how many trains would have needed to be run to get everyone home between 2300 and 0200?

The capacity of a 12 car class 700 is 1088 (including standees). That's 53 trains before one even considers Brighton Pride. Add to that the fact that a class 377 of the same length can take fewer standees.

 

[sbt]

A couple of points of interest:

A Brighton resident I follow on Twitter reports a surprising amount of Glitter on the train he took this afternoon.

Also this from Littlehampton Coastguard Volunteers:

The team were tasked by Maritime and Coastguard Agency at 22.30hrs last night to assist Police at #BrightonPride.

Littlehampton Coastguard Volunteers were tasked last night to assist Sussex Police with proactive safety patrols along Brighton seafront due to large numbers of people from the Pride events. Also tasked were HM Coastguard Shoreham, Newhaven Coastguard, Langdon Battery Coastguard Team who transported the incident control unit from Dover, and the area 8 COAC (Coastal Operation Area Commander). We were also working closely with South East Coast Ambulance Service.

Teams were stationed along the promenade keeping an eye on party goers, as well as watching the waters edge and intervening where needed.

Thankfully the night passed without too many incidents; a massive thanks to the public for remaining well behaved, and very friendly towards us . The teams were released to return to station around 05.00am.​

There are a lot of tradeoffs relating to these large events. Making sure everybody gets home safely is a team effort (which also involves those attending the event).

 

[Class 170101]

The capacity of a 12 car class 700 is 1088 (including standees). That's 53 trains before one even considers Brighton Pride. Add to that the fact that a class 377 of the same length can take fewer standees.

Is that 1088 figure its theoretical maximum or crush loaded?

 

[Esker-pades]

Is that 1088 figure its theoretical maximum or crush loaded?

Theoretical maximum. 666 seated plus 422 standing. So, in practice, a crush-loaded service could take more than 1088 people.

 

[tony_mac]

Theoretical maximum. 666 seated plus 422 standing. So, in practice, a crush-loaded service could take more than 1088 people.

I think that it may actually be 666 seated plus 1088 standing.
http://data.parliament.uk/Deposited...413/chris-gibb-report-southern-rail_small.pdf