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Manchester Airport railway station, discussion and ideas

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northwichcat

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Is it really?
The biomass trains join the mid Cheshire at Hartford and the Airport Western link would join at Mobberley, it is all double track. It currently has one passenger train per hour plus on average one freight per hour; ok, the passenger service is due to go to two per hour. It would be easy to fit two ATW (or whoever) trains per hour to the (via the) Airport. In fact if ATW were operating on the line the second train per hour (so long as it goes to Piccadilly) would not be as essential.

The signalling presents a constraint. You can sometimes get two freight trains operating between the passenger trains, it's not unknown for a passenger train to be held at Greenbank due to a signalling fault in the Altrincham area.
 
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DarloRich

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Which is fine, I've come across TPE customers heading to Liverpool South Parkway and bemoaning a lack of direct service and having to catch a bus/taxi to Airport.
The area is big enough for more than one airport.

And with utmost respect to Newcastle, Leeds, Liverpool and Darlo airports Manchester is now the main airport for the north.
 

Greybeard33

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The original platforms at the airport station are those now known as 2 and 3. Any extension of the airport branch to meet the mid-Cheshire line would have to be an extension of platforms 1 and 2 and would have to begin by curving to the left to avoid the station building. Joseph Locke once posted some details about the curves required (probably on Skyscrapercity rather than on here). If I remember correctly, half the length of platform 2 would have to be realigned towards platform 1.

The line would then have to go under the airport apron in a cut-and-cover tunnel.

An alignment has been protected for such an extension. A couple of years ago the airport tried to drop it from its forward plans but was lobbied to keep it in the plan.

The Greengauge post-HS2 report pushed for an extension of the Airport branch to the Mid-Cheshire via the HS2 station.

However, it was more interested in Sheffield-Hazel Grove-Altrincham-Airport-Crewe services, rather than Cheshire-Airport-Manchester services.
I doubt that would be practicable. It would have to curve sharply to the right so that by the time it got near the HS2 station it would be pointing almost north, and would then have to curve sharply left again.
As I read the Greengauge report, it advocates that the western link should follow the protected alignment described by snowball, not going via the HS2 station. But it proposes a triangular junction with the Mid-Cheshire line, like the existing one at Heald Green. This would enable direct services from Sheffield to the Airport, using the existing freight line from Hazel Grove to Northenden, then looping round through Altrincham to approach the Airport from the west. They could then continue through Piccadilly to Liverpool, providing a through Sheffield - Airport - Manchester - Liverpool service without any reversals. This would help relieve congestion at both Piccadilly and the Airport station.

For the longer term (post HS2) the Greengauge proposal to relieve the Castlefield corridor is a tunnel from Ordsall Lane to the Piccadilly HS2/NPR station on the east side of the existing shed. This would take the inter-regional services from both the Chat Moss and Bolton lines, plus enable HS2 trains from London and Birmingham to continue through Manchester to Preston and beyond. The existing viaduct through Oxford Road would then be used by S-bahn style local services.

The tunnel could either replace or complement the existing NPR proposal for a high speed link from the Airport HS2 station to Liverpool via Warrington.

http://www.greengauge21.net/wp-content/uploads/Beyond_HS2WEB.pdf

TfGM is proposing a Metrolink extension from the the existing Airport station to the HS2 station, which would eventually continue in a loop via Wythenshawe hospital to rejoin the existing Metrolink Airport line.
 

B&I

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Ah, a voice of reason amongst the canine related clichés. Yes people, real people travelling to the growing number of destinations Manchester Airport offers want as few changes as possible, especially as the airport bound trains may sy not be the first one they use to get there. The obession about reducing the service to a clock face shuttle service has previously reached fever pitch. But the railways don't act to serve the desires of enthuiasts to see nice, neat timetables and lots of connections so they can enjoy their hobby and ride different reaction along the route. They serve people needing to get from A to B as easily and preferably as cheaply as possible. And as Manchester serves most of the North of England, well you figure it out...


What about all the other people the railway exists to serve who depend on it to get to jobs etc on a daily basis, rather than getting to and from their holidays once or twice a year ? Why are the needs of the former group being subordinated to the wants of the latter ?
 

B&I

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Which is fine, I've come across TPE customers heading to Liverpool South Parkway and bemoaning a lack of direct service and having to catch a bus/taxi to Airport.
The area is big enough for more than one airport.


Not that that option exists any more, because those services were moved, in part, to make way for more trains to Manchester Airport.

The region is big enough for several airports, but the powers that be, and not a few people on here, seem to feel that everyone from about Sutton Coldfield northwards should be flying from Manchester. If rail provision has any bearing on development of different airports, Manchester ia getting to enjoy a distinct competitive advantage over every other airport in the north
 

B&I

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Exactly. Remember, for a lot of families (luggage/kids, etc.) a drive to the airport in convenience is an attractive proposition, even with airport parking costs. Manchester is well served by the motorway network(if congested)

Would 'the railway' really like to lose some lucrative revenue simply for operational convenience?


It will be losing a lot of revenue if everyday commuters start deserting it
 
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Bantamzen

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What about all the other people the railway exists to serve who depend on it to get to jobs etc on a daily basis, rather than getting to and from their holidays once or twice a year ? Why are the needs of the former group being subordinated to the wants of the latter ?

It's been explained before, but Machester is not just about getting Mr & Mrs Jones and the kids off to Benidorm, you need to leave the Shirley Valentine stereotype out of the argument now. Having a well served international airport in the region can and does help bring in business as well as tourism. So Manchester Airport and the regions it serves strive to see more long haul destinations, and better access to the airport to help drive economies. I really shouldn't have to explain this here.
 

B&I

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As I read the Greengauge report, it advocates that the western link should follow the protected alignment described by snowball, not going via the HS2 station. But it proposes a triangular junction with the Mid-Cheshire line, like the existing one at Heald Green. This would enable direct services from Sheffield to the Airport, using the existing freight line from Hazel Grove to Northenden, then looping round through Altrincham to approach the Airport from the west. They could then continue through Piccadilly to Liverpool, providing a through Sheffield - Airport - Manchester - Liverpool service without any reversals. This would help relieve congestion at both Piccadilly and the Airport station.

For the longer term (post HS2) the Greengauge proposal to relieve the Castlefield corridor is a tunnel from Ordsall Lane to the Piccadilly HS2/NPR station on the east side of the existing shed. This would take the inter-regional services from both the Chat Moss and Bolton lines, plus enable HS2 trains from London and Birmingham to continue through Manchester to Preston and beyond. The existing viaduct through Oxford Road would then be used by S-bahn style local services.

The tunnel could either replace or complement the existing NPR proposal for a high speed link from the Airport HS2 station to Liverpool via Warrington.

http://www.greengauge21.net/wp-content/uploads/Beyond_HS2WEB.pdf

TfGM is proposing a Metrolink extension from the the existing Airport station to the HS2 station, which would eventually continue in a loop via Wythenshawe hospital to rejoin the existing Metrolink Airport line.


Let me get this straight. They are proposing that Liverpool - Sheffield services should perform a 20 mile loop the loop, cobtinuing to squeeze down the Castlefield bottleneck, enjoying a couple of new bottlenecks between Altrincham and Hazel Grove, and avoding the large town of Stockport ? Doew anyone else here think that certain people, in their obsession with serving Manchester Airport to the detriment of anywhere else, have crossed the sanity barrier ?
 

B&I

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It's been explained before, but Machester is not just about getting Mr & Mrs Jones and the kids off to Benidorm, you need to leave the Shirley Valentine stereotype out of the argument now. Having a well served international airport in the region can and does help bring in business as well as tourism. So Manchester Airport and the regions it serves strive to see more long haul destinations, and better access to the airport to help drive economies. I really shouldn't have to explain this here.


Has any evidence at all been produced to show that development of airports in this country leads to any inward investment at all, rather than extraction of wealth through out bound tourism ? And if direct services to Manchester Airport are so crucial for economic development, how come most places served by direct long-distance services from it remain in a state of economic stagnation ?

Again, it strikes me that the fans of boundless airport expansion are more concerned with boosting the status of their chosen city over its local rivals, than any real.benefits it brings
 

Bantamzen

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Has any evidence at all been produced to show that development of airports in this country leads to any inward investment at all, rather than extraction of wealth through out bound tourism ? And if direct services to Manchester Airport are so crucial for economic development, how come most places served by direct long-distance services from it remain in a state of economic stagnation ?

Again, it strikes me that the fans of boundless airport expansion are more concerned with boosting the status of their chosen city over its local rivals, than any real.benefits it brings

Well a starter for ten is the Transport for North proposals which do include studies:

https://transportforthenorth.com/international-connectivity/

But ask yourself this, would London be the major international influence it is if business people and tourists had to fly into an airport a couple of hundred miles away? Or perhaps you could ask why successful multi-regional economies all seem to have international connectivity at the heart of their strategies?
 

Camden

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When it comes to transport for the north and any of its related entitles, the word evidence belongs in "".
 

Bletchleyite

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I disagree, and I ask again. Would London be successful if it had no international airport

Nobody is proposing to close Manchester Airport, just for it not to have direct trains to places other than Manchester. You will note that Heathrow does not have direct trains to anywhere other than London and still manages to be the UK's premier airport.
 

Bantamzen

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Nobody is proposing to close Manchester Airport, just for it not to have direct trains to places other than Manchester. You will note that Heathrow does not have direct trains to anywhere other than London and still manages to be the UK's premier airport.

And there it is, the "But London doesn't have.. " argument. Perhaps Heathrow should have better connectivity, perhaps its current arrangements are far from ideal? Try landing at Heathrow on an overnight flight then negotiate your way North through peak commutes and several connections. It's a nightmare and why so many people choose to drive.
 

Greybeard33

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Let me get this straight. They are proposing that Liverpool - Sheffield services should perform a 20 mile loop the loop, cobtinuing to squeeze down the Castlefield bottleneck, enjoying a couple of new bottlenecks between Altrincham and Hazel Grove, and avoding the large town of Stockport ? Doew anyone else here think that certain people, in their obsession with serving Manchester Airport to the detriment of anywhere else, have crossed the sanity barrier ?
This Sheffield service might be an extension of the existing Northern service from Liverpool to the Airport via Warrington Central, with the EMT service continuing to run via Stockport. Thereby solving the question, posed by Killingworth in the P15/16 thread, of how to get the promised third fast Hope Valley service through Manchester and through the Stockport bottleneck, while giving Liverpool 2tph direct to Sheffield, reducing journey time between Sheffield and the Airport (a TftN aspiration) and negating the need for the TPE Cleethorpes service to reverse at Piccadilly.

The proposal includes redoubling the single line between Hazel Grove and Northenden. Navigation Road could be redoubled if Metrolink used tram-trains.
 

Greybeard33

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Nobody is proposing to close Manchester Airport, just for it not to have direct trains to places other than Manchester. You will note that Heathrow does not have direct trains to anywhere other than London and still manages to be the UK's premier airport.
As you often remind us, Switzerland is the epitome of the taktfahrplan. Yet both Zurich and Geneva airports have intercity services to multiple destinations, as well as both non-stop and stopping services to the respective Hauptbahnhof.
 

B&I

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This Sheffield service might be an extension of the existing Northern service from Liverpool to the Airport via Warrington Central, with the EMT service continuing to run via Stockport. Thereby solving the question, posed by Killingworth in the P15/16 thread, of how to get the promised third fast Hope Valley service through Manchester and through the Stockport bottleneck, while giving Liverpool 2tph direct to Sheffield, reducing journey time between Sheffield and the Airport (a TftN aspiration) and negating the need for the TPE Cleethorpes service to reverse at Piccadilly.

The proposal includes redoubling the single line between Hazel Grove and Northenden. Navigation Road could be redoubled if Metrolink used tram-trains.


Step back and look at what is being proposed. Who the hell would sit on a train for an extra hour plus to travel from Sheffield to Liverpool by that route ? Isn't the Liverpool-Manchester-Crewe service enough of a warning about what happens when you try to knit together local services into something ludicrously long ?
 
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notlob.divad

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Are any airports pleasant??
Gdansk, Liepzig, Vienna, Helsinki and Krakow are fantastic.
Rzeszow, Warsaw Modlin and Conception are functional but fine.
Munich, Frankfurt, Schipol, Paris CDG, Birmingham, East Midlands, Warsaw Chopin and Liverpool are all pretty good.
Wasn't particularly a fan of Atlanta or Detroit. Santiago, Sydney, Singapore and Dubai were fine. Manchester, Heathrow, Stansted, Luton, Setif and Constantine are all various levels of dreadful.

I should add for completeness, Pisa and Paris Beauvais are calamitous, Napoli slightly less so.
 
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notlob.divad

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Which is fine, I've come across TPE customers heading to Liverpool South Parkway and bemoaning a lack of direct service and having to catch a bus/taxi to Airport.
The area is big enough for more than one airport.
And yet none of them can now catch a direct train to South Parkway, instead having to change at an 'unfamiliar' city centre station.
 

notlob.divad

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Exactly. Remember, for a lot of families (luggage/kids, etc.) a drive to the airport in convenience is an attractive proposition, even with airport parking costs. Manchester is well served by the motorway network(if congested)

Would 'the railway' really like to lose some lucrative revenue simply for operational convenience?

Yes, if it replaced that revenue by revenue from a different pocket by providing a more reliable commuter / intercity service. It would also improve the countries carbon footprint as 3/4 people in one car going on a return journey to the airport for their summer holiday, is more efficient than 3/4 people individually driving cars going to work and back everyday.
 

notlob.divad

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It's been explained before, but Machester is not just about getting Mr & Mrs Jones and the kids off to Benidorm, you need to leave the Shirley Valentine stereotype out of the argument now. Having a well served international airport in the region can and does help bring in business as well as tourism. So Manchester Airport and the regions it serves strive to see more long haul destinations, and better access to the airport to help drive economies. I really shouldn't have to explain this here.
But the arguement put forward for direct services is that family, 2 kids and luggage will only travel on the train if its direct.
Business travellers on their own with less luggage and no kids, less problem with changing. Incoming tourists (particularly long haul) are likely to be going to Manchester city centre (at least first and last) they then may well travel to other cities/tourist attractions during their vacation, but initially it will be the city centre. Therefore for business and incoming travellers a regular interval, city-centre shuttle would be far more inviting.

Family with 2 kids and luggage on a return trip to the airport is an efficient use of a car. Other users of the railway would be less efficient in cars.
 

HowardGWR

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Gdansk, Liepzig, Vienna, Helsinki and Krakow are fantastic.
Rzeszow, Warsaw Modlin and Conception are functional but fine.
Munich, Frankfurt, Schipol, Paris CDG, Birmingham, East Midlands, Warsaw Chopin and Liverpool are all pretty good.
Wasn't particularly a fan of Atlanta or Detroit. Santiago, Sydney, Singapore and Dubai were fine. Manchester, Heathrow, Stansted, Luton, Setif and Constantine are all various levels of dreadful.
It's Leipzig and Schiphol, not those which I have emboldened.
 

noddingdonkey

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The biggest issue at Manchester Airport is that train services stop too early. I will be landing at 01.10 and have precisely zero public transport options.
 

Bletchleyite

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Gdansk, Liepzig, Vienna, Helsinki and Krakow are fantastic.
Rzeszow, Warsaw Modlin and Conception are functional but fine.
Munich, Frankfurt, Schipol, Paris CDG, Birmingham, East Midlands, Warsaw Chopin and Liverpool are all pretty good.
Wasn't particularly a fan of Atlanta or Detroit. Santiago, Sydney, Singapore and Dubai were fine. Manchester, Heathrow, Stansted, Luton, Setif and Constantine are all various levels of dreadful.

I dunno, I think Heathrow is quite nice now.
 

Bantamzen

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But the arguement put forward for direct services is that family, 2 kids and luggage will only travel on the train if its direct.
Business travellers on their own with less luggage and no kids, less problem with changing. Incoming tourists (particularly long haul) are likely to be going to Manchester city centre (at least first and last) they then may well travel to other cities/tourist attractions during their vacation, but initially it will be the city centre. Therefore for business and incoming travellers a regular interval, city-centre shuttle would be far more inviting.

Family with 2 kids and luggage on a return trip to the airport is an efficient use of a car. Other users of the railway would be less efficient in cars.

But you have to start somewhere. The airport links are still, in railway terms at least, a relatively new business, and one that is starting to expand rapidly. To cut back the services to some Manchester only shuttle would kill that stone dead. Despite what a few people like to claim, the airport station has seen a 25% increase in just a few years, and this is before many of the services get the full Inter City treatment as opposed to the commuter plus that is TPE if we are honest.

As for passengers only wanting to arrive into Manchester city centre, I say again Manchester Airport does not just serve Manchester. Many passengers arriving there will have onward journeys to Yorkshire & the North East, the North West, Lake District, Merseyside etc. So I strongly dispute your claim about them only going to Manchester initially. For example, someone arriving from the States or the Middle East on an early arriving flight wanting to travel on is far more likely to make connections onwards to their final destination than hotel for a full day in Manchester

The biggest issue at Manchester Airport is that train services stop too early. I will be landing at 01.10 and have precisely zero public transport options.

This is one of its big problems, I've landed there at silly o'clock and there's little option save a long wait or taxi transfer onwards. I wonder if a basic hourly service through the night might be an option, or at least one that meets much of the very early morning arrivals.

I dunno, I think Heathrow is quite nice now.

I like T5, it flows far better than many other terminals I've been to and has a nice, light airy feel to it thanks to the amazing engineering of the main terminal building.

Just getting back on topic, on this and other threads there appears to be the assumption that the current timetable problems are caused by airport services, but they are not. The biggest problems, especially for TPE are caused through he North TP core with the now obviously unrealistic expectation of getting 6 fast, semis & stoppers between Leeds and Manchester per hour. This is what is causing so many delays, so for me the obvious starting point would be to split the stoppers at Huddersfield so at least they can get out of the way of the quicker services sooner & allow them to keep closer to their timings & so get closer to their slots through Manchester. Plus once the new stock starts to land, dwell times should improve meaning they are not holding up services behind them and improve the efficiency through Manchester.

And beyond that, the stalled Piccadilly P15/16, & North TP electrification have added to the problems through Manchester. All the wiring projects, along with Ordsall Chord & the Manchester station upgrades were supposed to be part of a bigger overall upgrade. Take one or more out and you are left with what we have today. Cheaping out, and/or fragmenting major upgrades will result in this & is why as a country we should commit fully to these projects instead of making excuses & offering half-arsed solutions. Yes it will cost, but how much is currently being lost through reduced productivity, tourism etc with the current issues?
 

FQTV

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A few thoughts:
  • The airport terminals are generally considered to need significant redevelopment
  • The existing station is quite a hike even from T3, and requires passengers to walk outside and cross service roads to get to other terminals
  • The HS2 Station will require a people mover type link to reach the terminal areas
Would there be a case for closing the existing station, developing a new through one at the Styal Junction and running the people mover from the Airport HS2 Station, under and providing direct access to each terminal, and across to an Airport Regional Station?

The Airport Regional Station might be configured to provide bays for an Airport <> City non-stop Express service, as well as through-services from elsewhere in the North and Midlands.

I’ve no idea how the detailed operations would work, naturally, but I got a new packet of crayons yesterday so I thought that I’d try them out.
 

notlob.divad

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It's Leipzig and Schiphol, not those which I have emboldened.
As I used to say to my father. "The fact that you have demonstrated that you understand what I have written by correcting the spelling mistakes within, shows that I have achieved the aim I set myself, when I started writing."

Very Interesting the two errors you picked up on, and not some of the others, such as Kraków, Gdańsk, and Warsawa. It seems there is some level of spelling inaccuracy that is willingly accepted. Although it is not immediately obvious to me where the pass/fail line is.

Once the good people of Leipzig stop refering to my most frequently traversed airport as Danzig, I will make a better effort to get the spelling of Leipzig-Halle flughafen correct.
 

Altfish

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Has any evidence at all been produced to show that development of airports in this country leads to any inward investment at all, rather than extraction of wealth through out bound tourism ? And if direct services to Manchester Airport are so crucial for economic development, how come most places served by direct long-distance services from it remain in a state of economic stagnation ?

Again, it strikes me that the fans of boundless airport expansion are more concerned with boosting the status of their chosen city over its local rivals, than any real.benefits it brings
I know that Manchester Airport employs something like 40,000 people. That is a lot! Many of these people travel in by public transport.
Just under 30m people use the airport each year.
 

B&I

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Well a starter for ten is the Transport for North proposals which do include studies:

https://transportforthenorth.com/international-connectivity/

But ask yourself this, would London be the major international influence it is if business people and tourists had to fly into an airport a couple of hundred miles away? Or perhaps you could ask why successful multi-regional economies all seem to have international connectivity at the heart of their strategies?


I think having the entire machinery of government, and pretty much the whole financial service industry (about the only viable large-scale industry we have left in this country) has done more to boost London's success than Heathrow. Again, if Manchester Airport is such a spectacular economic dynamo and direct services to it are so vital to the economic health of the places concerned, why are so many of the places with direct links to it economic basket cases ?
 
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