Is Eurostar a Wasted Opportunity?

[cle]

Just to point out that the lack of Amsterdam to London Eurostar services is nothing to do with Eurostar being cautious around Brexit as you have claimed but rather because the infrastructure is not yet ready in Rotterdam or Amsterdam hence on the Amsterdam to London leg you HAVE to go though security in Brussels, when the infrastructure is ready for use in the Netherlands THEN you will see direct services without having to go though security checks in Brussels.

Exactly, if anything they rushed to offer services early - even though the infrastructure for London-bound trains wasn’t really ready yet. I’d expect frequencies to go up once the build outs are done.

 

[CMS]

Just to point out that the lack of Amsterdam to London Eurostar services is nothing to do with Eurostar being cautious around Brexit as you have claimed but rather because the infrastructure is not yet ready in Rotterdam or Amsterdam hence on the Amsterdam to London leg you HAVE to go though security in Brussels, when the infrastructure is ready for use in the Netherlands THEN you will see direct services without having to go though security checks in Brussels.

Granted, that was not the best phrasing but Eurostar has mentioned Brexit uncertainty several times in the media, particularly after earnings reports, even though they acknowledge the short-term boost of a weaker pound and increase in business travel due to Brexit preparations.

The main block on Amsterdam>London is Brexit uncertainty by each government en route, notably the Dutch, they cannot agree on who/how to do the controls. I read somewhere that it's not just towards London, the Dutch aren't too happy with the current Belgian arrangement where Brussels passengers are checked by the French PAF on behalf of the Belgian Federal Police - the Dutch want to do their own, there is no space in St Pancras for this. Operationally, things are ready to go, the lounge is there in Amsterdam, platform works at Rotterdam/Amsterdam and yes, I know there are some other things which will need doing (like installing barriers to restrict access to the Eurostar platforms), but now there is 'no rush' they haven't been done. Eurostar has put out loads of stuff around the route, some of their colleagues tweeted about the extensive testing, they did a LinkedIn video, they were PR heavy about it - especially at NS - so from what I can see they really are "ready" but perhaps the real missed opportunity is not sorting this out pre-Brexit?

 

[Bald Rick]

Haha, that would surely make for the World's most boring cycle ride... 3 hours or so of nothing but continuous tunnel. To say nothing of the pleasures of getting a puncture halfway along and then having to walk 15 miles or so to the exit.

Mind you the breeze from the trains whooshing past in the neighbouring tunnel might liven things up a bit

3 hours? It’s only 50k, half of it downhill. And no traffic! Two hours at most, more like 90 minutes.

Also the service tunnel is pressurised above running tunnel pressure, and with the door shut it’s unlikely there’s much of a breeze.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

As a one-time user of Eurostar (so far) I have a few observations about the service:

Firstly, the checks at St. Pancras on departure seemed very much like "security theatre" rather than a genuine check. A lack of signposting and information made it difficult for a first-time user, as there seemed to be an assumption that everyone should already know the process. As someone on the Autistic Spectrum this was a bit stressful for me, but I could perhaps have arranged support with Euro* customer service had I planned ahead better. The main issue was the behaviour of other passengers at the baggage scan, and better staffing levels would have helped here. The exit to the baggage scan was like a Black Friday scrum, particularly upon departure from Brussels on the return journey. A particularly rude English woman caused me to have a near-meltdown due to her impatience as well as tearing a brand-new rucksack by barging me and said rucksack out of the way. Better supervision of this process would hopefully prevent such petulant behaviour from the self-entitled. At least on my next trip, I'll know what to expect!

I booked about 15 days before travel, and the cost for my entire journey (Huddersfield to Prague) was cheaper than any airline fare I could find when factoring in the cost of getting to the Airport in the UK. I don't recall the exact fare without looking it up, but a CIV ticket (not hidden at all on the Euro* website, contrary to what others have suggested) for the Leeds to Brussels-Midi leg was around £80 return. The Brussels-Midi to Prague-HN leg (admittedly via a slower route to save money) was a total of £40 return booked on the CĎ website. Sure, I also had an outbound overnight stop in Brussels costing £25, and spent a total of 24hrs in transit on the return, but it was an adventure- air travel is something I find dull and stressful without any of the positives you get on the train, but I guess that's just my opinion!

I do wonder what the future holds for the Brussels route post-Brexit, it may well be that Amsterdam becomes more popular, with Brussels services being diverted there if/when the security infrastructure is in place. If service to Brussels is reduced, this might make longer-distance travel to Germany and Central Europe more difficult by rail, though it'll already be a marginal market anyway.

 

[jopsuk]

Haha, that would surely make for the World's most boring cycle ride... 3 hours or so of nothing but continuous tunnel. To say nothing of the pleasures of getting a puncture halfway along and then having to walk 15 miles or so to the exit.

Mind you the breeze from the trains whooshing past in the neighbouring tunnel might liven things up a bit

There's been a few people have done the full length - the service tunnel is separate from the running tunnels with emergency doors.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

3 hours? It’s only 50k, half of it downhill. And no traffic! Two hours at most, more like 90 minutes.

Ummm... ummm... what about the other half?

 

[HowardGWR]

Ummm... ummm... what about the other half?

Well it's not exactly Alpe d'Huez!

 

[edwin_m]

The main block on Amsterdam>London is Brexit uncertainty by each government en route, notably the Dutch, they cannot agree on who/how to do the controls. I read somewhere that it's not just towards London, the Dutch aren't too happy with the current Belgian arrangement where Brussels passengers are checked by the French PAF on behalf of the Belgian Federal Police - the Dutch want to do their own, there is no space in St Pancras for this.

That would surely be unworkable unless they divided the lounge or cleared it out between the previous train and the Amsterdam one, or perhaps checked passports on the way up the ramp to the platform which would make boarding slower. Otherwise it would be possible to get on the Amsterdam train with a different ticket.

 

[Roy Badami]

The main block on Amsterdam>London is Brexit uncertainty by each government en route, notably the Dutch, they cannot agree on who/how to do the controls. I read somewhere that it's not just towards London, the Dutch aren't too happy with the current Belgian arrangement where Brussels passengers are checked by the French PAF on behalf of the Belgian Federal Police - the Dutch want to do their own, there is no space in St Pancras for this.

I find this somewhat unlikely. It will always be the case that London-to-Amsterdam passengers changing at Brussels will only have been through French passport control. Even if this was somehow changed to Belgian passport control, there's no way such passengers would go through Dutch passport control - at least as long as Schengen remains - as Brussels-to-Amsterdam trains are within the Schengen area and therefore have no passport checks.

I can't see what it would gain the Dutch to insist that passengers on direct London-to-Amsterdam trains go through Dutch passport control, given they have no chance of achieving this for the many passengers who will continue to change in Brussels.

But remember, for the British to perform passport control in Amsterdam and Rotterdam requires a treaty to give UK Border Force jurisdiction in the Netherlands. There might even have to be a "quad-partite" argeement between the UK, France, Belgium and the Netherlands to sort out all the issues with police jurisdiction on the train (mirroring the tri-partite agreement between UK, France and Belgium under which the London to Brussels services run).

These treaties take time to agree at the best of times - typically measured in years. And these aren't the best of times, as British diplomats (particularly) are probably too preoccupied with Brexit to give the negotiations on this much (or indeed any) priority...

EDIT: Also, remember, when Eurostar started, none of these agreements were in place, either, and passport checks were done on arrival. It was several years, I think, before juxtaposed controls were put in place. But passport checks on arrival at St Pancras for Amsterdam trains isn't really an option now; segregating arriving passengers from the different routes would be very difficult if not impossible operationally. So direct inbound services simply aren't going to run until the necessary international agreements are in place. I seem to recall I read that it's hoped they'll be in place some time in 2020. But depending on how much diplomatic effort Brexit consumes, this could be optimistic, IMHO.

 

[al78]

3 hours? It’s only 50k, half of it downhill. And no traffic! Two hours at most, more like 90 minutes.

I seriously doubt that many cyclists outside the professionals could average 20 mph over 50km half downhill and half uphill, bearing in mind you lose more energy fighting against gravity than you gain with gravity assistance. A typical cycling average speed is about 14-16 mph for intermediate club cyclists depending on terrain and wind.

 

[Bald Rick]

Ummm... ummm... what about the other half?

You’d barely notice it.

Well it's not exactly Alpe d'Huez!

Well no - I was 19 mins down that

I seriously doubt that many cyclists outside the professionals could average 20 mph over 50km half downhill and half uphill, bearing in mind you lose more energy fighting against gravity than you gain with gravity assistance. A typical cycling average speed is about 14-16 mph for intermediate club cyclists depending on terrain and wind.

That’s the point. No wind, and the terrain couldn’t be simpler. Good surface, to all intents and purpose straight (as far as cycling goes), no junctions, no traffic. Ruling gradient 1.1% - barely noticeable, with a couple of very short bursts at 2% and 3.5%.

I am by no means a club cyclist, but on a good day I will average 17mph+ over 30 miles with wind (meteorological!) traffic, poor road surfaces, dozens of junctions and typical rolling countryside, with at least 3 uphills over 10% (one of them for over half a click). I’d be disappointed if I didn’t average 20mph in the tunnel. Not that I’ll get the chance! Pros would be doing it in an hour, easily.

 

[Roy Badami]

no traffic

Unless there's an incident, and emergency vehicles are driving down the service tunnel at speed.

This, incidentally, is why no walk (or cycle ride) through the service tunnel could ever be organised while the line is in operation, as there are concerns that it could impede emergency vehicles. Conceivablly, it could be done when the line is closed for engineering work (most likely at night)....

EDIT: I presume that under normal circumstances the line is open at night (for freight). Can anyone confirm?

 

[al78]

That’s the point. No wind, and the terrain couldn’t be simpler. Good surface, to all intents and purpose straight (as far as cycling goes), no junctions, no traffic. Ruling gradient 1.1% - barely noticeable, with a couple of very short bursts at 2% and 3.5%.

I am by no means a club cyclist, but on a good day I will average 17mph+ over 30 miles with wind (meteorological!) traffic, poor road surfaces, dozens of junctions and typical rolling countryside, with at least 3 uphills over 10% (one of them for over half a click). I’d be disappointed if I didn’t average 20mph in the tunnel. Not that I’ll get the chance! Pros would be doing it in an hour, easily.

You are the exception, not the rule. Very few cyclists can average 17+ mph taking traffic, junctions, poor road surfaces, unfavourable weather. I've averaged over 20 mph on a folding bike in a time trial, but that is very different to normal utility cycling, a continuous ride, rural lightly used roads and no give way points. The fastest riders in my local club can average 19-20 mph on a 40 mile club ride but that is rolling average only and in a group, which is faster and more efficient than solo riding.

 

[Bald Rick]

Unless there's an incident, and emergency vehicles are driving down the service tunnel at speed.

This, incidentally, is why no walk (or cycle ride) through the service tunnel could ever be organised while the line is in operation, as there are concerns that it could impede emergency vehicles. Conceivablly, it could be done when the line is closed for engineering work (most likely at night)....

EDIT: I presume that under normal circumstances the line is open at night (for freight). Can anyone confirm?

It’s open 24/7/365. Maintenance is done overnight by closing one of the three parts of one tunnel, with bi-di in the other tunnel. Occasionally more parts but that is an exception. Rarely is the whole thing closed. Helpfully, GetLink publish their maintenance calendar.

https://www.eurotunnelfreight.com/uk/timetable/maintenance-calendar/

 

[Bald Rick]

You are the exception, not the rule. Very few cyclists can average 17+ mph taking traffic, junctions, poor road surfaces, unfavourable weather.

I’m not the exception where I am, as plenty of people go past me! (And yes, my speed measuring is accurate!)

 

[Roy Badami]

It’s open 24/7/365. Maintenance is done overnight by closing one of the three parts of one tunnel, with bi-di in the other tunnel. Occasionally more parts but that is an exception. Rarely is the whole thing closed. Helpfully, GetLink publish their maintenance calendar.

https://www.eurotunnelfreight.com/uk/timetable/maintenance-calendar/

Thanks.

As for the conceivable possibility of making the service tunnel available, I was more thinking of night time engineering work on the English or French lines that might on rare occasions halt freight traffic through the tunnel. (During maintenance in the tunnel itself, I imagine the service tunnel might be used to get people to and from the worksite - and even if not, it would surely need to remain available for emergency access in case of an incident at the worksite, be it someone requiring medical attention as a result of an accident or even, conceivably, to deal with the eventuality of a fire at the worksite.)

EDIT: Also, is it really open on Christmas Day? Are the English and French lines on either side of the tunnel really open on Christmas Day?

 

[gsnedders]

EDIT: Also, is it really open on Christmas Day? Are the English and French lines on either side of the tunnel really open on Christmas Day?

Normal public holiday timetable applies on Christmas in France. And the Eurotunnel shuttle operates on Christmas Day, at least (I don't know whether it uses a standard holiday frequency or something else).

 

[island]

The main block on Amsterdam>London is Brexit uncertainty by each government en route, notably the Dutch, they cannot agree on who/how to do the controls. I read somewhere that it's not just towards London, the Dutch aren't too happy with the current Belgian arrangement where Brussels passengers are checked by the French PAF on behalf of the Belgian Federal Police - the Dutch want to do their own, there is no space in St Pancras for this.

I can’t see that point making any sense. A passenger who travels to France on the ferry and drives onto the Netherlands is checked by the PAF on entering Schengen; a passenger who flies to Köln and gets a train onwards is checked by the Bundespolizei. Why would the Koninklijke Marechaussee suddenly be dissatisfied with the PAF for travel by Eurostar? If someone is wanted they can be flagged on the Schengen Information System and the PAF will see that when they scan their passport.

 

[island]

Also, remember, when Eurostar started, none of these agreements were in place, either, and passport checks were done on arrival. It was several years, I think, before juxtaposed controls were put in place. But passport checks on arrival at St Pancras for Amsterdam trains isn't really an option now; segregating arriving passengers from the different routes would be very difficult if not impossible operationally. So direct inbound services simply aren't going to run until the necessary international agreements are in place.

It is not only possible, but done 4 times a week. Passport checks are done on arrival for train 9057 as there is no UK Border Force presence at Marne-la-Vallée–Chessy. But it needs security staff in place with Tensabarriers etc. to ensure that passengers from that train don’t mix with those off other services arriving around the same time.

 

[JamesT]

It is not only possible, but done 4 times a week. Passport checks are done on arrival for train 9057 as there is no UK Border Force presence at Marne-la-Vallée–Chessy. But it needs security staff in place with Tensabarriers etc. to ensure that passengers from that train don’t mix with those off other services arriving around the same time.

If they don’t have the juxtaposed controls at Marne, why don’t they do the Lille shuffle like the other locations that don’t have them?

 

[island]

If they don’t have the juxtaposed controls at Marne, why don’t they do the Lille shuffle like the other locations that don’t have them?

It would reduce ridership to approximately zero. 9057 almost exclusively carries families returning from Disneyland Paris, and they simply would no longer use the service if it tipped out at Lille and they had to get off complete with kids, baggage, pushchairs, and the rest. To say nothing of the extra 75-90 minutes on the timetabled journey time – checks before departure mean everyone needs to be fully checked before anyone can leave. Just about everyone would drive instead.

9087 (the service from Marseille-St. Charles and the only other Eurostar service without border control at its origin station) has a much more diverse range of passengers and also arrives at Lille-Europe as the last ex-Brussels train is leaving, so the immigration and security checking staff only have to deal with that train.

 

[Bald Rick]

Thanks.

As for the conceivable possibility of making the service tunnel available, I was more thinking of night time engineering work on the English or French lines that might on rare occasions halt freight traffic through the tunnel. (During maintenance in the tunnel itself, I imagine the service tunnel might be used to get people to and from the worksite - and even if not, it would surely need to remain available for emergency access in case of an incident at the worksite, be it someone requiring medical attention as a result of an accident or even, conceivably, to deal with the eventuality of a fire at the worksite.)

EDIT: Also, is it really open on Christmas Day? Are the English and French lines on either side of the tunnel really open on Christmas Day?

The shuttles don’t use anything except the Eurotunnel network. There is sufficient spare capacity on the lines ‘outside’ overnight to work around all but the most exceptional routine maintenance work.

On Christmas Day the shuttles run, albeit to a reduced frequency. The Eurostar’s have a day off, and come back on Boxing Day.

 

[Bald Rick]

If they don’t have the juxtaposed controls at Marne, why don’t they do the Lille shuffle like the other locations that don’t have them?

I think the question should be, if the don’t have the juxtaposed controls at Marne, then why do the Eurostars from other locations that don’t have them have to do the Lille shuffle?

 

[island]

I think the question should be, if the don’t have the juxtaposed controls at Marne, then why do the Eurostars from other locations that don’t have them have to do the Lille shuffle?

I expect the UK Border Force staff will want to go to bed The only train with the “Lille shuffle” is 9087 which arrives in at 22:12 Fri-Mon.

 

[ainsworth74]

I don't recall the exact fare without looking it up, but a CIV ticket (not hidden at all on the Euro* website, contrary to what others have suggested) for the Leeds to Brussels-Midi leg was around £80 return.

As I stated for a through journey they are not hidden as Eurostar do offer through tickets from a limited range of UK stations to a limited range of Continental stations. However, I note, that even for your journey you had to split at Leeds as there is no through fare available from Huddersfield. Which means, I suspect, contractually, you may have been in hot water if you missed your connection at Leeds due to disruption between Huddersfield and Leeds causing you to miss your Eurostar due to a delay on the non-CIV protected portion (though I'd wager that the Eurostar staff would have passed you without bother). I also note that Eurostar don't actually advertise that the ticket is covered by CIV protection (at least as far as I could see).

Whilst for passengers wishing to start their journey from outside of the range of stations offered by Eurostar then their only choice is to book a separate CIV ticket but they are not well advertised contrary to what you have suggested. If a passenger from somewhere like Aylesbury, Hereford, Worcester, Clacton, Shenfield or East Croydon (all not exactly small places) wishes to travel via Eurostar they will most likely buy from London as their station isn't available with through ticketing from Eurostar. So, how are they then supposed to know about the special tickets that are cheaper than equivalent tickets to London and include CIV protection?

You'll forgive me I do not see how anyone can argue that CIV tickets to London International are anything other than hidden and a well kept secret.

 

[Roy Badami]

It is not only possible, but done 4 times a week. Passport checks are done on arrival for train 9057 as there is no UK Border Force presence at Marne-la-Vallée–Chessy. But it needs security staff in place with Tensabarriers etc. to ensure that passengers from that train don’t mix with those off other services arriving around the same time.

Interesting, thanks.

How are the ski trains handled?

 

[HowardGWR]

Interesting, thanks.

How are the ski trains handled?

While we are waiting for the answer to that one, going back to exit checks, the transport workers are of course not carrying out migration checks as such. They are merely recording data for the Home Office. That isn't the same and it does not check if the passport is valid or if it is held by the person which is stated on the passport. Nor does it give opportunity to stop dodgy people leaving. My passport details are already with Easyjet for a flight I am taking soon (since when I booked). Easyjet could not give a fig who I am.

 

[cle]

And also, on the anomalies, is there still an Avignon Ville non-stop, in addition to the Marseille and Lyon service (not sure about calls at Avignon TGV and Aix too?)

 

[nickswift99]

I find this somewhat unlikely. It will always be the case that London-to-Amsterdam passengers changing at Brussels will only have been through French passport control. Even if this was somehow changed to Belgian passport control, there's no way such passengers would go through Dutch passport control - at least as long as Schengen remains - as Brussels-to-Amsterdam trains are within the Schengen area and therefore have no passport checks.

I can't see what it would gain the Dutch to insist that passengers on direct London-to-Amsterdam trains go through Dutch passport control, given they have no chance of achieving this for the many passengers who will continue to change in Brussels.

But remember, for the British to perform passport control in Amsterdam and Rotterdam requires a treaty to give UK Border Force jurisdiction in the Netherlands. There might even have to be a "quad-partite" argeement between the UK, France, Belgium and the Netherlands to sort out all the issues with police jurisdiction on the train (mirroring the tri-partite agreement between UK, France and Belgium under which the London to Brussels services run).

These treaties take time to agree at the best of times - typically measured in years. And these aren't the best of times, as British diplomats (particularly) are probably too preoccupied with Brexit to give the negotiations on this much (or indeed any) priority...

EDIT: Also, remember, when Eurostar started, none of these agreements were in place, either, and passport checks were done on arrival. It was several years, I think, before juxtaposed controls were put in place. But passport checks on arrival at St Pancras for Amsterdam trains isn't really an option now; segregating arriving passengers from the different routes would be very difficult if not impossible operationally. So direct inbound services simply aren't going to run until the necessary international agreements are in place. I seem to recall I read that it's hoped they'll be in place some time in 2020. But depending on how much diplomatic effort Brexit consumes, this could be optimistic, IMHO.

Separate inbound checks at St Pancras are possible and have been implemented to address the "Lille" problem. All it took was some tensa barriers in the arrivals hall.

 

[island]

Interesting, thanks.

How are the ski trains handled?

Eurostar pays for UKBF to staff checkpoints at Bourg St. Maurice and Moûtiers (pick up only northbound). It’s a very lucrative service. Douanes Françaises do the exit checks and bag scans.