Is Eurostar a Wasted Opportunity?

[island]

And also, on the anomalies, is there still an Avignon Ville non-stop, in addition to the Marseille and Lyon service (not sure about calls at Avignon TGV and Aix too?)

They’ve been merged. There is one return south of France service outbound 9084 and back 9087 up to three days a week. Calling at Lyon Part-Dieu, Avignon TGV and Marseilles St Charles.

 

[cle]

They’ve been merged. There is one return south of France service outbound 9084 and back 9087 up to three days a week. Calling at Lyon Part-Dieu, Avignon TGV and Marseilles St Charles.

Thanks, I thought as much.

Has there been consideration to merging with the Disney train, or demand enough for both? I’d imagine with the new line that Bordeaux must be next... although I remember talk of Geneva too.

Perhaps with two trains running south of Marne la Vallee, if both called there then pathing and demand could be consolidated.

And could Lyon ever support higher frequency (and a build out)?

 

[CMS]

That would surely be unworkable unless they divided the lounge or cleared it out between the previous train and the Amsterdam one, or perhaps checked passports on the way up the ramp to the platform which would make boarding slower. Otherwise it would be possible to get on the Amsterdam train with a different ticket.

I would agree, this seems unworkable in the current configuration.

But remember, for the British to perform passport control in Amsterdam and Rotterdam requires a treaty to give UK Border Force jurisdiction in the Netherlands. There might even have to be a "quad-partite" argeement between the UK, France, Belgium and the Netherlands to sort out all the issues with police jurisdiction on the train (mirroring the tri-partite agreement between UK, France and Belgium under which the London to Brussels services run).

These treaties take time to agree at the best of times - typically measured in years. And these aren't the best of times, as British diplomats (particularly) are probably too preoccupied with Brexit to give the negotiations on this much (or indeed any) priority...

Yes, the Dutch transport ministry seems somewhat reluctant to proceed until there is a clearer picture on Brexit.... I remember seeing 2020 being quoted.
Here's what a minister said in June, well into the start of service, note that there is still discussion of having just passport controls in NL and potentially customs in FR... https://www.spoorpro.nl/spoorbouw/2...ogelijk-douanecontrole-eurostar-in-frankrijk/

I can’t see that point making any sense. A passenger who travels to France on the ferry and drives onto the Netherlands is checked by the PAF on entering Schengen;

I agree, but I believe that NL is quite stringent on stuff like this, judging on the way they check things at Schiphol - seems to be more direct control?

If they don’t have the juxtaposed controls at Marne, why don’t they do the Lille shuffle like the other locations that don’t have them?

I believe it's because security screening is obligatory before the tunnel for Eurostar passengers and luggage. These facilities are provided at Paris/Lille/Calais, Marne-la-Vallée, Bourg St Maurice and Moûtiers but not at other stations in France meaning if the train has has its doors open anywhere else i.e. Lyon, it must go to Lille. I also believe Lille is chosen over Marne-la-Vallée because Eurostar staff are actually based there, whereas at Marne-la-Vallée, it's SNCF or a contract team who help run the station (I've seen them do the Ouigo checks as well as Eurostar).

Has there been consideration to merging with the Disney train, or demand enough for both? I’d imagine with the new line that Bordeaux must be next... although I remember talk of Geneva too.

Perhaps with two trains running south of Marne la Vallee, if both called there then pathing and demand could be consolidated.

And could Lyon ever support higher frequency (and a build out)?

I really, really hope that merger never happens... I had the pleasure of the Disney train to Lille once and NEVER AGAIN!!! Children everywhere, parents who seem to never have left Kent let alone the UK, endless 'are we there yets' and the lunch in SP is literally a packed lunch... i.e. it is served in a bag instead of the usual platter thing. It's literally the opposite to the current Ski/South of France trains which are a few families, a good amount of 'regulars' visiting second homes/holiday resorts and well-travelled groups of people. If there were a Bordeaux service, I'd expect a good number of expats and retirees doing wine trips too.

Geneva would be a great idea, but I'm not too sure about the market (they stopped the cross-platform guaranteed-connection 'London Lille Lyria' due to poor numbers). Plus, Eurostar onboard staff/drivers probably have so many rules of networks to learn, that Switzerland too (even though it's only a few minutes ride to Bellegarde) might be too much. Perhaps, they could make a stop en-route and Lyria drivers could do a leg like Thalys drivers do with the current E* Amsterdams?

Lyon seems massively congested, and with the OUIGO boom, I doubt it. If E* altered to St-Exupéry, they might be able to gain space for a control area, like they had at Avignon-Centre but the extortionate Rhônexpress plus the fact it is at an airport would not be in its favour. City centres are where E* wins over planes.

 

[gsnedders]

Geneva would be a great idea, but I'm not too sure about the market (they stopped the cross-platform guaranteed-connection 'London Lille Lyria' due to poor numbers). Plus, Eurostar onboard staff/drivers probably have so many rules of networks to learn, that Switzerland too (even though it's only a few minutes ride to Bellegarde) might be too much. Perhaps, they could make a stop en-route and Lyria drivers could do a leg like Thalys drivers do with the current E* Amsterdams?

I thought all the services south of Paris had a stop where the driver was changed to an SNCF one (e.g., the Marseille service calls at Lille Europe to change driver and train manager to SNCF staff, though it's not a public stop).

Lyon seems massively congested, and with the OUIGO boom, I doubt it. If E* altered to St-Exupéry, they might be able to gain space for a control area, like they had at Avignon-Centre but the extortionate Rhônexpress plus the fact it is at an airport would not be in its favour. City centres are where E* wins over planes.

Yeah, lack of capacity at either city centre station in Lyon probably kills it. I can imagine it'd work if there was space. Given the existing 34 minute connections possible at Lille, it'd be about four and a half hours, which is definitely doable.

 

[Bald Rick]

Thanks, I thought as much.

Has there been consideration to merging with the Disney train, or demand enough for both? I’d imagine with the new line that Bordeaux must be next... although I remember talk of Geneva too.

Perhaps with two trains running south of Marne la Vallee, if both called there then pathing and demand could be consolidated.

And could Lyon ever support higher frequency (and a build out)?

There’s not much demand London to Lyon; the air market supports 5-7 daily flights all year round, much of which is business, which is more frequency sensitive.

Theres a similar demand to Bordeaux, but this is more leisure oriented, particularly summer weekends. Whilst the trip around Paris to get from LGV Nord to LGV Atlantique is quite tedious - it takes 3h20 from Marne la Vallée to Bordeaux compared with 2h08 from Paris Montparnasse, it still offers the potential for a circa 5 hour London to Bordeaux timing. A summer service, à la Marseille, would probably work, and I like the idea of pairing it up for Disney.

Geneva is a different kettle of fish. Huge market, bigger than Brussels. I’m convinced that if more paths can be squeezed out of the LGV PSE then 2-3 times daily London - Geneva (non stop) would work. Approx 5h timing will put a lot of people off, but the journey experience would be better, and door to door for many trips will be similar. I’d guess it could get 20-30% of the market, with departures from each end early morning, early afternoon, and around 1700.

But perhaps the best bet for Geneva would be winter Saturdays with the ski traffic, when there are over 50 flights / day each way. There’s easily scope for 4-5 trains out in the morning (say hourly from 0500), returning in the evening; this would accommodate around 35-50% of the market. These would be best to Geneva airport, where there are handy border control facilities in the area already (if the logistics could be made to work), and a well practised onward travel operation. I’d certainly swap from easyJet to such a service if it existed, and be prepared to pay more. Would be very handy to sleep off the aprés ski on the way home. Eurostar could easily pull in £200k per return pair, and nearly double that at half term. Possibly £15m-£20m pa, for relatively little marginal resource. Worth investigating!

 

[CMS]

I thought all the services south of Paris had a stop where the driver was changed to an SNCF one (e.g., the Marseille service calls at Lille Europe to change driver and train manager to SNCF staff, though it's not a public stop).

That's right but in this scenario, you'd either need to train a fair amount of crew on Switzerland rules and have them swap out at Lille, like the trains you mention which I don't see as happening given that they have to already know Eurotunnel, HS1, Ashford (Network Rail), Belgium, LGV and conventional SNCF - in French, English and Dutch. Also, I'm not 100% on the Swiss language laws, but I'm sure all Lyria chefs de bord have to speak German too. I've heard German on Eurostar announcements coming from Brussels before but it might get a bit complicated.

A more likely scenario would be adding Eurostar turns to Lyria crew rosters, like what has happened with the Thalys team in Amsterdam. I cannot imagine the Lyria team running all the way to Lille though, meaning that there would need to be a changeover point in France. The difficulty is that if a train opens its doors on a platform which is not Lille/Calais/Paris or Marne-la-Vallée (with security presence and platform locked off), all of the passengers who boarded at Geneva would have to get off and go through security again - you'll remember there have been a few times where a Eurostar has stopped in France bound for the UK and for whatever reason, the doors have been opened so every passenger is made to go through security again. Perhaps, they could interwork with the Disney trains so that the crew swap at Marne, with the Lyria crew returning via/coming from Paris Lyon?

But perhaps the best bet for Geneva would be winter Saturdays with the ski traffic, when there are over 50 flights / day each way. There’s easily scope for 4-5 trains out in the morning (say hourly from 0500), returning in the evening; this would accommodate around 35-50% of the market. These would be best to Geneva airport, where there are handy border control facilities in the area already (if the logistics could be made to work), and a well practised onward travel operation. I’d certainly swap from easyJet to such a service if it existed, and be prepared to pay more. Would be very handy to sleep off the aprés ski on the way home. Eurostar could easily pull in £200k per return pair, and nearly double that at half term. Possibly £15m-£20m pa, for relatively little marginal resource. Worth investigating!

I think it could even be feasible at Geneva's main station with some minor adaptations. Critically, you would need to time the departures so that they don't clash with an arriving TER/TGV from France as the whole double-platform area would be required.The preceding train would need to depart at least 30 mins prior so that security could block off the platform.

I'd say 4-5 trains is too much, instead I'd propose diverting one of the existing ski train paths for a season as a trial and then go from there. I think the e320s would be ok, but I'm not too sure if they're gauged for diversionary routes in the Alps or particularly snow-resilient. I'm sure E* could make a killing on the 1st class offering and if they sorted out the Wifi.

 

[Esker-pades]

But perhaps the best bet for Geneva would be winter Saturdays with the ski traffic, when there are over 50 flights / day each way. There’s easily scope for 4-5 trains out in the morning (say hourly from 0500), returning in the evening; this would accommodate around 35-50% of the market. These would be best to Geneva airport, where there are handy border control facilities in the area already (if the logistics could be made to work), and a well practised onward travel operation. I’d certainly swap from easyJet to such a service if it existed, and be prepared to pay more. Would be very handy to sleep off the aprés ski on the way home. Eurostar could easily pull in £200k per return pair, and nearly double that at half term. Possibly £15m-£20m pa, for relatively little marginal resource. Worth investigating!

The Geneva ski market is mainly people flying, then getting a coach to transfer to an actual resort. Eurostar already serves some of these with their service to Moutiers-Salains-Brides les Bains, Aime La Plagne and Bourg St Maurice. The best market share Eurostar could get when trying to tap into the winter sports market would be London-Resort rather than London-Geneva.

Note: Not that London to Geneva as a direct service isn't a good idea. I'm picking up on the logic of the additional winter services.

 

[cle]

Surely the key is the mix of business and leisure demand (and the Alps are amazing in summer too, if they’d sort the bikes out!) - the ability to work on the train is a major plus too. Yes the flight is short, but there is so much redundant time, even flying to/from City.

What is the minimum Geneva could be on a non-stop service? And are any stretches good for 320km/h running?

 

[CMS]

Surely the key is the mix of business and leisure demand (and the Alps are amazing in summer too, if they’d sort the bikes out!) - the ability to work on the train is a major plus too. Yes the flight is short, but there is so much redundant time, even flying to/from City.

What is the minimum Geneva could be on a non-stop service? And are any stretches good for 320km/h running?

My guess would be 5h35. This would be based on:
London to Lille - 1h22 (train 9140) / 1h35 (train 9084, includes Ashford stop like Ski)
3 min stop to swap out crews at Lille or for pathing - 0h03
Estimate for Lille to Mâcon TGV using E* 9084 timing and TGV6605 backtimed from Lyon - 2h35
Estimate for Mâcon TGV to Geneva, with a 4min stop at Bellegarde only based on Lyria 9773 and backtiming TGV6605 from Paris - 1h35
No exact science, but pretty decent I'd reckon. And there'd still be no 320kmh running until Paris-Lyon LGV is further upgraded.

Absolute non-stop would never happen, they'd need to stop at least for crew change and all current non-core routes stop at Ashford, but theoretically I'd say 5h20.

 

[island]

I’d be cautious about planning to do much of anything at Marne-la-Vallée–Chessy.

There’s no point stopping there to tip passengers out for security, as there’s no UKBF so you might as well do it at Lille.

There’s little point adding Marne-la-Vallée–Chessy calls on south of France services. They serve completely different markets. The Disney train is regularly booked solid with pax on inclusive tour fares (probably why it has sliced away the onboard offering in Std Prem and doesn’t offer Bus Prem) and I wouldn’t inflict hundreds of kids cranky at being torn away from the most magical place in Europe on normals.

Other limitations are that Eurostar UK crew don’t sign Lille to Marne-la-Vallée–Chessy or further south, and can’t carry passengers on domestic journeys (that is to say, journeys within one country; Brussels-Midi to Lille-Europe is fine as it’s international, even though there are no passport checks). I think (but I may be wrong) that 374s aren’t cleared for the south of France services either.

What can be done? Bring back Eurostar domestic sales to allow through CIV bookings from anywhere whilst not having to wait for the 12 week booking horizon or book from the next nearest major railhead. Tweak Snap so it doesn’t always put you on the first or last train. And for pity’s sake put an extra steward in the Cafés when it’s busy because the queue regularly goes into coach 7.

 

[Bald Rick]

The Geneva ski market is mainly people flying, then getting a coach to transfer to an actual resort. Eurostar already serves some of these with their service to Moutiers-Salains-Brides les Bains, Aime La Plagne and Bourg St Maurice. The best market share Eurostar could get when trying to tap into the winter sports market would be London-Resort rather than London-Geneva.

Note: Not that London to Geneva as a direct service isn't a good idea. I'm picking up on the logic of the additional winter services.

I disagree. Geneva largely serves different resorts to the existing Eurostar ski train. The latter serves the Three Valleys, La Payne, Les Arcs, Val d’Isere and Tignes plus La Rosiere. You can do this from Geneva, of course (and people do), but it’s 3 hours minimum on the road. Many people fly to Chambery (I’ve done it) and of course it’s driveable. The flash people fly into Courchevel, but that needs big money.

Geneva serves Les Gets, Morzine, Flaine, Avoriaz, Châtel, La Clusaz, Chamonix, Argentière, Megève and many more, none of which are remotely sensible by the existing ski train. All around 90 mins or less from Geneva. Verbier isn’t that much further (with rail connections from Geneva Airport). The former group are typified by people travelling on by minivan shuttle buses, including the fantastically named Skiidy Gonzalez (who are highly recommended). They all park above the airport station, you meet the driver in the arrivals hall and you are on the road approx 45 minutes after landing. With a rail arrival this would be 10 minutes.

The arrivals hall at GVA on a Saturday morning in ski season has to be seen to be believed. There are, effectively, hourly arrivals from each of Luton and Gatwick, with the equivalent of more than another hourly arrival from Heathrow, Stansted and City combined. That’s around 600 people an hour just from London. Then more from the regional airports. Generally, skiers prefer the morning flights, as you can be in resort by early afternoon, get everything sorted and be straight out on the slopes the next morning. However there isn’t enough airline (or runway) capacity to do that, so flights are spread throughout the day. A fleet of morning Eurostars would win that battle hands down.

 

[Bromley boy]

A fleet of morning Eurostars would win that battle hands down.

I can foresee a simple - and boring - problem with this.

Would there be sufficient rolling stock to lay on a fleet of Eurostar ski trains and still maintain the bread and butter service? Especially as ski trains will have much longer out and back journey times than the regular Paris/Brussels services.

 

[Bromley boy]

The flash people fly into Courchevel, but that needs big money.

Having googled the airstrip - that’s an eye opener! 537m, 18% gradient and no ability to go-around due to the terrain.

I’d baulk at taking a 4 seat 172 into a strip of that length, let alone anything bigger, even without the mountains!

I assume most fly into Geneva and transfer by helicopter.

(Apologies off topic).

 

[island]

Travelled last Saturday.
1. Ticket check in
2. Baggage scan
3. UK/Eurostar passport check. Choice of e-gate or manual check
4. French passport check. Only noticed manual check.

That isn’t how it works. The e-gates are French. Though you choose whether you would like to use e-gates or manual lane for step 4 by joining one of two different queues for step 3.

 

[coppercapped]

Having googled the airstrip - that’s an eye opener! 537m, 18% gradient and no ability to go-around due to the terrain.

I’d baulk at taking a 4 seat 172 into a strip of that length, let alone anything bigger, even without the mountains!

I assume most fly into Geneva and transfer by helicopter.

(Apologies off topic).

OFF TOPIC, but watch this...!

 

[cle]

My guess would be 5h35. This would be based on:
London to Lille - 1h22 (train 9140) / 1h35 (train 9084, includes Ashford stop like Ski)
3 min stop to swap out crews at Lille or for pathing - 0h03
Estimate for Lille to Mâcon TGV using E* 9084 timing and TGV6605 backtimed from Lyon - 2h35
Estimate for Mâcon TGV to Geneva, with a 4min stop at Bellegarde only based on Lyria 9773 and backtiming TGV6605 from Paris - 1h35
No exact science, but pretty decent I'd reckon. And there'd still be no 320kmh running until Paris-Lyon LGV is further upgraded.

Absolute non-stop would never happen, they'd need to stop at least for crew change and all current non-core routes stop at Ashford, but theoretically I'd say 5h20.

Thanks... in which case, I’d say a 5+ hour Geneva journey would be better for leisure and skiers (good point on same day slopes time being rare) but not for business users, of which there are very many.

Slightly different tack - would Eurostar be able to start services from The Netherlands and Belgium to France and compete with the infrequent TGV and Thalys longer services? Which could also feed their London network at Lille potentially?

 

[45107]

That isn’t how it works. The e-gates are French. Though you choose whether you would like to use e-gates or manual lane for step 4 by joining one of two different queues for step 3.

I’ll have a closer look next time.

 

[Aictos]

As Eurostar have expanded their services to Amsterdam with 2 return workings a day, could they next expand their reach to Cologne with the same and offer direct London to Cologne services in competition with DB and Thalys between Brussels and Cologne?

They could do this by extending two return Brussels workings a day to Cologne especially as it would be competitive with air travel.

As to extending Eurostar to Geneva as @Bald Rick has suggested, on the 14th May 2012 Eurostar Chief Executive Nicolas Petrovic told the thelocal.de that Eurostar would not only expand to Cologne but also to Amsterdam, Lyon, Marseille and Geneva over the next five years.

Now I'm aware that Eurostar have actually started services to Amsterdam, Lyon, Marseille but not yet Cologne nor Geneva yet was meant to by 2017, I hope this is still something that they will be doing.

Eurostar is to extend its high speed rail service to link Frankfurt and Cologne via the Channel Tunnel to London within the next five years, according to a British newspaper report on Monday.
The Germany-London high-speed rail link will be a direct challenge to European airlines, the Financial Times said.

"By 2016 and 2017 we would like people when they are thinking about travelling to these cities to consider taking Eurostar rather than flying,” Eurostar Chief Executive Nicolas Petrovic told the paper.

Since launching the high-speed link between London, Paris and Brussels in 2007, Eurostar has almost killed off air travel between those cities, said the paper.

The line now carries 9.7 million passengers a year, offering much faster journey times between the city centres than air travel.

But now Eurostar is upping its game as it faces future competition from Deutsche Bahn. Germany's train operator won a long battle with French state operator SNCF two years ago to gain access to the tunnel linking Britain and France.

Eurostar – 55 percent of which is owned by SNCF - has until now enjoyed a monopoly on travel through the Channel Tunnel.

But Deutsche Bahn is set on launching a competing ICE service by the end of 2015, said the paper, speeding passengers between Frankfurt and London via Cologne in an estimated five hours.

Still, Deutsche Bahn will have to pay above the odds for the privilege of using the line.

Petrovic thought at least one other competitor would get into the tunnel along with Deutsche Bahn, he told the paper, but said the opening up of the high-speed rail market was a good way to tackle the dominance of the airlines.

“The key growth area for us is to take market share off airlines and if more [train] operators come in it will grow the whole market for high-speed rail,” he said.

Now in an ambitious move, Petrovic said Eurostar would expand its service from its international hub in London not only to German cities, but also to Amsterdam, Lyon, Marseille and Geneva over the next five years.

The expansion will coincide with Eurostar taking delivery of ten German-made Siemens trains big enough to seat 900 passengers, scheduled from the end of 2014.

The deal sparked a row between Germany and France in 2010 when French engineering giant Alstom tried to stop Eurostar buying the trains from its German rival.

https://www.thelocal.de/20120514/42535

 

[Bald Rick]

I can foresee a simple - and boring - problem with this.

Would there be sufficient rolling stock to lay on a fleet of Eurostar ski trains and still maintain the bread and butter service? Especially as ski trains will have much longer out and back journey times than the regular Paris/Brussels services.

Well, no. But then the bread and butter might not be as valuable.

Thanks... in which case, I’d say a 5+ hour Geneva journey would be better for leisure and skiers (good point on same day slopes time being rare) but not for business users, of which there are very many.

Agreed re leisure but I suspect there would still be a business market.

As Eurostar have expanded their services to Amsterdam with 2 return workings a day, could they next expand their reach to Cologne with the same and offer direct London to Cologne services in competition with DB and Thalys between Brussels and Cologne?

They could do this by extending two return Brussels workings a day to Cologne especially as it would be competitive with air travel.

They could, but the issue with Köln is that there isn’t that much demand. Only 9/10 flights a day from London, and only three from LHR, the rest are from Stansted / Southend. Düsseldorf is more likely.

 

[30907]

the issue with Köln is that there isn’t that much demand. Only 9/10 flights a day from London, and only three from LHR, the rest are from Stansted / Southend. Dusseldörf is more likely.

But to go to Duesseldorf by rail means going via Koeln - it just so happens that Duesseldorf won out on the airport side. But I agree - Frankfurt or nothing, once you've added the 15kV capability to the stock (this is where DB had the advantage...)
Realistically,, though, let's see how Amsterdam works....

 

[30907]

Slightly different tack - would Eurostar be able to start services from The Netherlands and Belgium to France and compete with the infrequent TGV and Thalys longer services? Which could also feed their London network at Lille potentially?

As SNCF are the majority shareholder in Eurostar IIRC I can't see it happening.

 

[Bald Rick]

But to go to Duesseldorf by rail means going via Koeln - it just so happens that Duesseldorf won out on the airport side. But I agree - Frankfurt or nothing, once you've added the 15kV capability to the stock (this is where DB had the advantage...)
Realistically,, though, let's see how Amsterdam works....

Agreed. It needs border control sorting out before any decisions will be made on other destinations.

 

[Aictos]

They could, but the issue with Köln is that there isn’t that much demand. Only 9/10 flights a day from London, and only three from LHR, the rest are from Stansted / Southend. Dusseldörf is more likely.

Yet Eurostar were seriously considering it in 2012 so they must have seen some demand, more so now that DB have decided not to run Germany to UK services.

The other thing as well in Koln's favourite is it's a major hub in Germany with connections everywhere be it ICE or InterCity or Regional.

 

[HowardGWR]

Yet Eurostar were seriously considering it in 2012 so they must have seen some demand, more so now that DB have decided not to run Germany to UK services.

The other thing as well in Koln's favourite is it's a major hub in Germany with connections everywhere be it ICE or InterCity or Regional.

Also you could have services which partly empty at Brussel and then fill up for Keulen (Dutch spelling). In other words, genuine competition, as envisaged originally.

 

[Aictos]

Also you could have services which partly empty at Brussel and then fill up for Keulen (Dutch spelling). In other words, genuine competition, as envisaged originally.

Indeed which to borrow a phrase from WWE's own Triple H and Stephanie McMahon that is best for business!

 

[NotATrainspott]

I disagree. Geneva largely serves different resorts to the existing Eurostar ski train. The latter serves the Three Valleys, La Payne, Les Arcs, Val d’Isere and Tignes plus La Rosiere. You can do this from Geneva, of course (and people do), but it’s 3 hours minimum on the road. Many people fly to Chambery (I’ve done it) and of course it’s driveable. The flash people fly into Courchevel, but that needs big money.

Geneva serves Les Gets, Morzine, Flaine, Avoriaz, Châtel, La Clusaz, Chamonix, Argentière, Megève and many more, none of which are remotely sensible by the existing ski train. All around 90 mins or less from Geneva. Verbier isn’t that much further (with rail connections from Geneva Airport). The former group are typified by people travelling on by minivan shuttle buses, including the fantastically named Skiidy Gonzalez (who are highly recommended). They all park above the airport station, you meet the driver in the arrivals hall and you are on the road approx 45 minutes after landing. With a rail arrival this would be 10 minutes.

The arrivals hall at GVA on a Saturday morning in ski season has to be seen to be believed. There are, effectively, hourly arrivals from each of Luton and Gatwick, with the equivalent of more than another hourly arrival from Heathrow, Stansted and City combined. That’s around 600 people an hour just from London. Then more from the regional airports. Generally, skiers prefer the morning flights, as you can be in resort by early afternoon, get everything sorted and be straight out on the slopes the next morning. However there isn’t enough airline (or runway) capacity to do that, so flights are spread throughout the day. A fleet of morning Eurostars would win that battle hands down.

Those Tarentaise Valley resorts served by Eurostar account for 1300km of pistes - Les Trois Vallées, Espace Killy and Paradiski are individually some of the largest skiiable areas in Europe. The value of the ski train is that these resorts really aren't that far away from the railhead - in Les Arcs' case, you can take a funicular straight from the station in Bourg up to Arc 1600 - so there's minimal extra time required to get to the slopes. Sending a train anywhere else is going to be less useful for most people, since the resorts would still require a lengthy transfer, and it would be less efficient to serve more resorts with a smaller number of prospective passengers.

 

[DPWH]

I've said elsewhere that what I think Eurostar needs to develop is more direct high speed lines.

Specifically, a Y-shaped line starting at Antwerp, bypassing Brussels to the west, with a stop at Ghent after which there'd be a branch to Calais and a branch to the existing triangular junction to the east of Lille. That could get London-Amsterdam trains down to 3 hours and allow more capacity through Brussels.

Secondly, perhaps more ambitiously, a base tunnel under the Sonian Forest would allow Brussels to be bypassed to the South-East as well, allowing more direct London-Cologne trains.

 

[the sniper]

I don't want to come across like a Daily Mail reader, but given that this is an English speaking forum, is there any reason why Cologne is referred to in three different post in three different languages, non of which include the name recognised in English? Enough showing off!

I've said elsewhere that what I think Eurostar needs to develop is more direct high speed lines.

If by develop you mean anything other than them expressing that your ideas would be nice to have, I'm afraid you'll disappointed. In no way are Eurostar in a position to fund the projects you suggest and I wouldn't expect them to take a developmental lead in such ideas.

 

[coppercapped]

I've said elsewhere that what I think Eurostar needs to develop is more direct high speed lines.

Specifically, a Y-shaped line starting at Antwerp, bypassing Brussels to the west, with a stop at Ghent after which there'd be a branch to Calais and a branch to the existing triangular junction to the east of Lille. That could get London-Amsterdam trains down to 3 hours and allow more capacity through Brussels.

Secondly, perhaps more ambitiously, a base tunnel under the Sonian Forest would allow Brussels to be bypassed to the South-East as well, allowing more direct London-Cologne trains.

There is a big problem with this suggestion - Eurostar does not own any of the the routes and rails!

In the UK HS1 runs the line to the Channel Tunnel, the Tunnel is owned and operated by Getlink (aka Groupe Eurotunnel) and in France and Belgium the lines are owned and operated by the respective nationalised railways. Eurostar pays tolls to the infrastructure operators for the use of their routes.

If your suggestion were to come about then Eurostar would either have to convince the state railways of Belgium and France to build the new lines or find an alternative way to get the infrastructure built. Neither would be easy.

 

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Would there be sufficient rolling stock to lay on a fleet of Eurostar ski trains and still maintain the bread and butter service? Especially as ski trains will have much longer out and back journey times than the regular Paris/Brussels services.

Presently, no. However, if the stock was sweated more on the Brussels/Amsterdam route (i.e. at the moment, the Amsterdam arrival is at 1312 and leaves again 1648, most 1005 arrivals in Brussels form the 1252 departure), I'd say 2-3 trains to Geneva a day would be plausible.

Slightly different tack - would Eurostar be able to start services from The Netherlands and Belgium to France and compete with the infrequent TGV and Thalys longer services? Which could also feed their London network at Lille potentially?

No, as it would imbalance the current crew set-up and would cannibalise the Thalys product. In addition, Lille-Europe only has 4 platforms, requiring reversals and the Lille Eurostar terminal is too small to handle so many passengers, it can currently do about 500 people an hour judging but what I have observed from getting trains on Sundays, when they're hourly towards London in the afternoon.

As to extending Eurostar to Geneva as @Bald Rick has suggested, on the 14th May 2012 Eurostar Chief Executive Nicolas Petrovic told the thelocal.de that Eurostar would not only expand to Cologne but also to Amsterdam, Lyon, Marseille and Geneva over the next five years.

Now I'm aware that Eurostar have actually started services to Amsterdam, Lyon, Marseille but not yet Cologne nor Geneva yet was meant to by 2017, I hope this is still something that they will be doing.

I strongly, strongly doubt this. Petrovic left just before the Amsterdam launch I believe and looking at his profile and an interview he gave which is on YouTube, he is a clear SNCF man. He worked his way up, left, came back again and I believe he used to run an entire region. If you look at the Directors team on Eurostar's website, there used to be 3 or 4 who were all from SNCF/Keolis etc, now I can only make out one (the COO?). The new CEO used to work for Arriva and Easyjet and they have a new 'Digital MD' who was from Cathay Pacific, BA and Expedia. This would signal that their priorities are to consolidate the current Eurostar offering to an airline model with an emphasis on digital service and NOT the SNCF's "trial and error", railway-led schemes, it has done with its other affiliates. The last time I travelled from St Pancras, there was a new hair salon in the departures area, there seemed to be a mini-duty-free shop where the WHSmith was and this was despite clear operational issues causing delays and misinformation - the priority seems not to be the railway, but how can we squeeze money out of customers through extras on the journey and 'package it as a travel experience'. Fair enough, not many rail companies have executives with heavy railway experience, but you can feel the change in Eurostar direction. Go on the website and try and find the timetable for instance - virtually impossible. Try and find their service information - not clear, but doable. Try and book a hotel or get 'inspiration for your romantic city break' - MAIS OUI!

For now, I think they will continue to work on sorting out Amsterdam, and they probably will tinker with the Marseille train - its days of operation seem to vary every season and perhaps, only perhaps we might see a Bordeaux (they'll keep an eye on how Thalys does). But as for Geneva, Cologne or Frankfurt - no. I'd even speculate them killing off certain services - reducing Ashford calls (again?!), simply cutting the number of trains on Sundays to avoid Sunday overcrowding (perhaps running an extra Lille service to compensate?), converting one/two Paris trains a day to 'OUIGOesque' standard class only, using the Izy route via Longueau and using the Paris Nord redevelopment to turn it into an airport terminal.

Also you could have services which partly empty at Brussel and then fill up for Keulen (Dutch spelling). In other words, genuine competition, as envisaged originally.

This doesn't work on the way back though, because passengers need to be fully checked/cleared to go through the Channel Tunnel to London. The only other solution would be to do it how the Brussels>Lille service works, by boarding all the London passengers separately first, then allowing the non-London passengers to be escorted by security officers to the back of the train which is locked off to the London passengers and guarded until the last stop before the Tunnel. The issue with this is that it means you cannot sell seats as efficiently as you could otherwise, it increases dwell time at train stations and requires an adapted terminal such as Brussels, requiring even more space and requires extra security. It's highly undesirable. The current plans for Amsterdam>London services is similar to this and still hasn't been achieved despite the fact that trains are already running, there are crews based in Amsterdam and NS agree with the service running- so as for Germany, chances are very slim.

A better solution would be reviewing timetabling to get connections at Brussels to the most attractive as possible and for DB and E* to consolidate their pricing to offer a better 'London Spezial' type ticket, with clear rules and a business class variant too. If they managed to get ICEs to link up nicely with the twice-daily Brussels-London non-stop Eurostars, Cologne through-trips would be very attractive.

I've said elsewhere that what I think Eurostar needs to develop is more direct high speed lines.

Specifically, a Y-shaped line starting at Antwerp, bypassing Brussels to the west, with a stop at Ghent after which there'd be a branch to Calais and a branch to the existing triangular junction to the east of Lille. That could get London-Amsterdam trains down to 3 hours and allow more capacity through Brussels.

Secondly, perhaps more ambitiously, a base tunnel under the Sonian Forest would allow Brussels to be bypassed to the South-East as well, allowing more direct London-Cologne trains.

That will never happen. Eurostar do not own/operate any of their infrastructure apart from their Stratford depot and the route you propose would involve ripping up many, many WW1/WW2 graveyards and important conservation areas across the Flanders region meaning it would gain almost zero support. There is already the Lille-Antwerp line which offers a good service but trains are only hourly, have in excess of 10 min dwell times at some stations and attach/divide portions en-route. If E*'s Any Belgian Station tickets allowed you to travel via Lille as well as Brussels, so you could travel to Bruges or Ghent via Tourcoing and Courtrai, and the Lille-Antwerp trains did not have portion working or long dwells, then I'm sure the service would be better used and become an attractive offering (although the current Eurostar I believe provides good journey times and the right capacity, although there should be 1 or 2 more trains on Fridays and Sunday/Mondays, with 1 or 2 more Lille stops).