Desiro Ride quality

[Swanage98]

Currently on 1w29 Waterloo to Weymouth, just coming into Woking, I know these 444's can suffer a stiff ride, but this one (didn't catch the number) is all over the place. never know it this bad before. I'm sat in the DMSO from the front, I may bail at Winchester and get a Vomiter....it's that intolerable. Please can us Bournemouth passengers have the 442's back on the 91 and 92 like the good old days? Pretty please??

 

[Swanage98]

It was in fact 444017

 

[Agent_Squash]

Currently on 1w29 Waterloo to Weymouth, just coming into Woking, I know these 444's can suffer a stiff ride, but this one (didn't catch the number) is all over the place. never know it this bad before. I'm sat in the DMSO from the front, I may bail at Winchester and get a Vomiter....it's that intolerable. Please can us Bournemouth passengers have the 442's back on the 91 and 92 like the good old days? Pretty please??

Maybe Network Rail should get a grip on track quality?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Maybe Network Rail should get a grip on track quality?

They don't ride anywhere near as roughly on the WCML, which is pretty much up to German standards these days.

 

[Swanage98]

Maybe Network Rail should get a grip on track quality?

Yes and that, I don't think these units help. Between Clapham and Woking is pretty rough and there are 3 maybe 4 temporary limits between SOA and BMH, feels like the SWML is being neglected at the moment.

 

[Swanage98]

Maybe it's me but I'm sure 159s on the same stretch are not as bad and the Voyagers south of Basingstoke ride better IMHO

 

[Bletchleyite]

158s and 159s are rather the low-speed ride benchmark, while Voyagers, 221s particularly, are probably the high(er) speed one - in amongst all the hate for 22x, it is often forgotten that the ride quality is alongside the huge windows as very good features. I don't think anything has ever ridden as well as the 158 and 159 before or since; they glide along even on the worst jointed track.

 

[Swanage98]

158s and 159s are rather the low-speed ride benchmark, while Voyagers, 221s particularly, are probably the high(er) speed one - in amongst all the hate for 22x, it is often forgotten that the ride quality is alongside the huge windows as very good features. I don't think anything has ever ridden as well as the 158 and 159 before or since; they glide along even on the worst jointed track.

I can testify to that right now, I bailed at Woking at got the 1516 Salisbury, nicer seats, nicer ride no comparison.

 

[hassaanhc]

I find on Desiros there is an extreme difference in ride quality over bogies vs in the centre of the coach. Certainly happens on all the EMU versions and I wouldn't be surprised if it was also on the 185 DMUs (sadly not been on those in years)

 

[Agent_Squash]

Yes and that, I don't think these units help. Between Clapham and Woking is pretty rough and there are 3 maybe 4 temporary limits between SOA and BMH, feels like the SWML is being neglected at the moment.

The Desiro’s are designed for high (German) track quality - something that most places in the UK don’t have.

 

[Swanage98]

The Desiro’s are designed for high (German) track quality - something that most places in the UK don’t have.

I do remember years ago on South Today as these trains were being introduced sometime in 2004, Paul Clifton ran a report that stated Siemens had to rough up the test track to reflect the dated infrastructure the uk has. I cycle a lot and have a hybrid for the roads as opposed to a full road bike due to the poor state of the roads, in the same vein, train designers and engineers should make stock suitable as much as can be for the environment. I generally like the 444's but over 10 years since they displaced the 442s on the Weymout route I thought then and still do now that they are inferior to those units

 

[Bletchleyite]

The Desiro’s are designed for high (German) track quality - something that most places in the UK don’t have.

The WCML pretty much does, which is probably why they work so well there (other than over pointwork as the UK doesn't have moving frogs[1]). On TPE they are rather a lot rougher.

Re the person who mentioned the ride over the bogies, yes, they do seem to shudder from side to side pivoted around the centre of the coach (inadequate lateral damping I guess), so sit there and it can be quite smooth, but stand in the gangway area and you can easily be thrown off your feet over Ledburn. This seems to occur for all UK Desiros, but less so the Class 700 so I guess work has been done on the matter.

[1] No, not Roger's boiling ones, the "nose" bit of the pointwork moves on some German pointwork, making for a silky smooth ride across station throats.

 

[Dougal2345]

It does feel as though the track between Bournemouth and Southampton (the bit I travel on) has deteriorated in recent months. Could it be something to do with the prolonged hot and dry spell?

Was trying to rest my head on the headrest through the Totton area the other day (end of a 444 coach) and it was impossible with all the rocking and jerking.

Had noticed a severe jerk on the up line between New Milton and Sway for a couple of days before there was a speed restriction put in place (that's still there I think, seems to be close to walking pace and now there's a loud clunk when you go over it). Don't know if I should have reported it to someone, but one imagines the drivers and guards know their business and spot these things rather better than I can

 

[dorsetdesiro]

Can't say I've noticed any difference in ride quality between Weymouth & Bournemouth, always felt the same, fairly smooth and not rocky. I do remember the old slam door units we had before the 450s, these were more bumpier and had a habit of the awful clattering noise that was absent on the 442s!

I admit I haven't been up Waterloo way for a while as the last time I think was Oct-Nov last year, it felt OK as usual at the time. Perhaps the maintenance of the trains had gone downhill lately like being serviced less than before due to "cutting corners"?, Are SWR or Siemens or Angel Trains responsible for maintaining the fleet?

 

[AM9]

I remember last year I went on 444s for the first time, first from Waterloo to Eastleigh then Eastleigh to Portsmouth & Southsea. I found the ride disappointing compared with the (then) LM 350s and certainly the 700s. In fact, the 444s weren't any better than Electrostars. Given that the SWML to Southampton is a 'premium' mainline, it's track (and/or it's supposedly best express stock) aren't anything special. Even the Northampton loop is better in a 350.
I suspect that not only have the bogies on the Desiro Citys been tuned for UK infrastructure, the short wheelbase and lighter unsprung weight may contribute to their better handling even over the humps and sags of the MML fast lines between Hendon and Elstree Tunnel.

 

[cactustwirly]

Can't say I've noticed any difference in ride quality between Weymouth & Bournemouth, always felt the same, fairly smooth and not rocky. I do remember the old slam door units we had before the 450s, these were more bumpier and had a habit of the awful clattering noise that was absent on the 442s!

I admit I haven't been up Waterloo way for a while as the last time I think was Oct-Nov last year, it felt OK as usual at the time. Perhaps the maintenance of the trains had gone downhill lately like being serviced less than before due to "cutting corners"?, Are SWR or Siemens or Angel Trains responsible for maintaining the fleet?

Siemens, but it has been reported that SWT apparently scaled back the maintenance in the last few months of the franchise

 

[37057]

Siemens, but it has been reported that SWT apparently scaled back the maintenance in the last few months of the franchise

That wouldn't compromise anything like suspension components. They'll be overhauled on mileage and if something like a damper is found to be showing signs of leakage on exam it would be rectified there and then (that would be my action and it wouldn't be disputed).

 

[bramling]

I remember last year I went on 444s for the first time, first from Waterloo to Eastleigh then Eastleigh to Portsmouth & Southsea. I found the ride disappointing compared with the (then) LM 350s and certainly the 700s. In fact, the 444s weren't any better than Electrostars. Given that the SWML to Southampton is a 'premium' mainline, it's track (and/or it's supposedly best express stock) aren't anything special. Even the Northampton loop is better in a 350.
I suspect that not only have the bogies on the Desiro Citys been tuned for UK infrastructure, the short wheelbase and lighter unsprung weight may contribute to their better handling even over the humps and sags of the MML fast lines between Hendon and Elstree Tunnel.

I wouldn’t say the Desiro City is particularly wonderful. They’re a lot better than the 387s, which ride horribly although a lot of that wouldn’t be felt so much if it wasn’t for the ironing board seats and rugged armrests, however the 365 has a softer ride. BR really knew what they were doing with suspensions in the 1990s - the class 158s also ride very well even on jointed track.

Regarding the original poster’s rough ride, do the Desiros have air suspension, and if so could they have been in a carriage where the suspension was deflated? 365s are setup like this and deflated suspension produces a very harsh ride. 95 tube stock is the same. Uncomfortable but not unsafe.

 

[cactustwirly]

I wouldn’t say the Desiro City is particularly wonderful. They’re a lot better than the 387s, which ride horribly although a lot of that wouldn’t be felt so much if it wasn’t for the ironing board seats and rugged armrests, however the 365 has a softer ride. BR really knew what they were doing with suspensions in the 1990s - the class 158s also ride very well even on jointed track.

Regarding the original poster’s rough ride, do the Desiros have air suspension, and if so could they have been in a carriage where the suspension was deflated? 365s are setup like this and deflated suspension produces a very harsh ride. 95 tube stock is the same. Uncomfortable but not unsafe.

Agreed! The 387s ride quality is actually a step down from the 165/166s they replaced!
However I alway founf the desiros to ride quite well

 

[dorsetdesiro]

Siemens, but it has been reported that SWT apparently scaled back the maintenance in the last few months of the franchise

OK, Stagecoach may have done so when they learned they lost the franchise, that action is unacceptable however they were "returning the keys" few months later. First-MTR, as the new operators, should have taken care of the maintenance from the start that it is possible they may have allowed the fleet to deteriorate further as they had other priorities to focus on.

Possible neglience of train maintenance together with botched infrastructure & governement department refusing to be accountable - the TOC, NR and the DfT all can be blamed for this mess of a SW franchise.

 

[43096]

I don't think anything has ever ridden as well as the 158 and 159 before or since; they glide along even on the worst jointed track.

It was a real shame that BREL wouldn’t warranty the T4 design (which is under the 158/159) for 140mph - they’d be under the Mark 4s if they had. As I recall it the spec was for the new bogies to ride as well at 140mph as the BT10 at 125mph.

 

[RailWonderer]

I've been on the 444, 450, 350 and 360 and they're almost parallel with each other, except for 3+2 seating on the 360s and 450s are tougher than the comfortable 2+2 on the 350 and 444. What it comes down to is how wobbly the track is.
On the line from Liverpool St between Romford and Harold Wood no matter what train you ride on the track is so vigorous it's like being in a blender you see passengers sway left and right quite harshly.

The best desiro ride hands down is London to Rugby on a 350 on the fast Crewe or a Birmingham semi fast because they do 110mph and the track is the smoothest I've ridden in the UK besides HS1. (although I can't comment on the 185s and 380s as I have no reason to go to rural Scotland or the long distance TPE services) Anyone know about 380s or 185s?

 

[joshy.fre_2003]

Personally I can’t fault the 350 ride quality, 185’s are slightly rougher but as it’s been mentioned in the thread a lot, depends on the track quality. Thankfully WCML north of Preston is like butter on the 350’s, would say you get thrown about far more on a pendolino.

 

[Strathclyder]

Anyone know about 380s or 185s?

Having ridden on a 380 as recently as 7th August (fr. Glasgow Central to Paisley Gilmour Street & return), I can quite confidently say that the ride quality is excellent; especially between Shields Junction & Gilmour St. Granted, the ride varies dependent on track quality, but that affects all stock to varying degrees as mentioned upthread, not just the 380s.

 

[387star]

Yes I was alarmed recently at how rough the ride was on the Portsmouth Direct on a 444

 

[WrongRoad]

Track quality over the whole SWR region is terrible. The UMF between Surbiton and Raynes Park needs attention. London Road Guildford to Effingham Jct is another section that is particularly poor, though a 40mph Speed Restriction has been imposed around the Clandon area if I remember correctly. 5MPH leaving Epsom on the Down as the points have given up, the list can just go on and on.

 

[TEW]

Track quality over the whole SWR region is terrible. The UMF between Surbiton and Raynes Park needs attention. London Road Guildford to Effingham Jct is another section that is particularly poor, though a 40mph Speed Restriction has been imposed around the Clandon area if I remember correctly. 5MPH leaving Epsom on the Down as the points have given up, the list can just go on and on.

Guildford to Ash is the worst of the lot in my opinion. It's actually a little bit scary along there, especially if you look through to another carriage, seeing it sway side to side.
You're correct about the 40mph, on the up line between London Road and Clandon, which means that section feels a little better for now, just as you are going slower.

 

[swt_passenger]

OK, Stagecoach may have done so when they learned they lost the franchise, that action is unacceptable however they were "returning the keys" few months later. First-MTR, as the new operators, should have taken care of the maintenance from the start that it is possible they may have allowed the fleet to deteriorate further as they had other priorities to focus on...

Siemens were and still are the maintainer of these units. I think much of this discussion is based on unwarranted speculation.

 

[Bertie the bus]

They don't ride anywhere near as roughly on the WCML, which is pretty much up to German standards these days.

They do. I was on a 350/4 recently. I can't remember whether it was Euxton or Golborne Junction but I'm used to travelling over it on a Pendolino and you feel virtually nothing. The ride on the 350 was so bad I though it was derailing.

 

[DarloRich]

never had a ride issue on a 350. Good quality trains. Cant say i have had an issue on a 185 either apart from Mirfeild/Heaton Lodge which always seems a bit roller coasty