The airport service not being a shuttle terminating at Piccadilly also avoids such trains having to turn right across the eastbound Castleford Corridor flow in the terminal throat area. Keeping as far left as possible reduces conflict.
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Platform 15 and 16 project at Manchester Piccadilly.
- Thread starter Xenophon PCDGS
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The airport service not being a shuttle terminating at Piccadilly also avoids such trains having to turn right across the eastbound Castleford Corridor flow in the terminal throat area. Keeping as far left as possible reduces conflict.
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Some experts now argue that dedicated premium airport express shuttles are not likely to be a major success if they don't also serve some other purpose, either stopping at other stations en route, or extended through the airport (or the other side of the city centre concerned) to key destinations beyond. Also without dedicated tracks, in providing a very high frequency service they can also use up a high proportion of the track capacity on the main line they use to enter the city centre, while often not being heavily loaded, which can be seen as a poor use of the capacity available especially in crowded commuter peak periods. The anti airport express argument goes on to suggest that, ideally, airport service should rather be provided as just another (albeit important) stop on various tiers of regular service; local, regional and intercity where viable, while airport stations can be developed as ground transit interchange hubs in their own right. Hence airport service can provide maximum benefit to a wide range of potential customers including air travellers and airport workers in the wider area rather than just high earners to and from the city centre. Airports tend to think rather differently and value the status symbol of their premium expresses. I hasten to add that both Heathrow and Gatwick are no doubt big enough for a dedicated express to work commercially, presumably covering costs, but the argument about appropriate use of scarce capacity still applies. Manchester is an interesting example in that the airport is the most convenient place to terminate Castlefield corridor traffic with minimal conflict at Piccadilly and Slade Lane.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
And thus we come back to the need for platforms 15 and 16, the Oxford Road work and the closure of Deansgate. The service is only of benefit if it's operationally robust.
A western exit to Oxford Road might help with some of the Deansgate catchment, especially if the platforms and works are done at Salford Central, enabling that to be the actual Spinningfields and Deansgate station.
But would closing Deansgate be detrimental in terms of the transfers to the Met? Or is that marginal?
But would closing Deansgate be detrimental in terms of the transfers to the Met? Or is that marginal?
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
I'd think it marginal given that most trains don't stop there anyway.
More problems with 13 and 14 today. Currently stuck on 1M99 from Edinburgh and there's a signal failure on said platforms, with trains currently wrong roading out of the platforms. Now is a time where most of us would appreciate the extra platforms!
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
I have known them end up the other way round, i.e. westbound from 13 and eastbound from 14, as both are bi-directional. Swapping them back is probably a right nightmare!
Altfish
Member
There are quite a few people who alight from a train at Deansgate and transfer to trams. Media City/Salford Quays being a popular work destination
Which is served by direct services from Piccadilly, so that's not so much of a problem (albeit the journey time would be extended by what - 15 minutes?). It would be a problem for people changing for the airport, Didsbury and Rochdale branches though.
Or the decision to build the airport spur and Skylink travelator was the wrong option. Manchester could have copied Birmingham and built a station on the existing line (replacing Heald Green) with a people mover to take people to and from the termimals. Trains could have either terminated or carried on to Crewe or further south.
It would be relatively cheap to build a station next to Cornbrook tram stop which would be a better interchange for CLC passengers. A short Metrolink extension from Eccles town centre to the railway station would also help. I am not sure there is an alternative for people travelling from Bolton though.
Xenophon PCDGS
Veteran Member
Noting the costs of recent new railway stations, built to the correct standards, can you place a financial figure upon your statement of "relatively cheap"?
Shaw S Hunter
Established Member
Not a good comparison at all. Birmingham Airport is just over 1/3 mile from Birmingham International station and has just a single terminal. Manchester Airport is 1.5 miles from the nearest point on the Styal line and needs to distribute passengers to (currently) 3 terminals. In other words MAN was more than 4 times more remote from the established rail network than BHX, has a greater need to manage the distribution of passengers and is also much busier. The decision to build a dedicate rail line was the correct one.
That is a more sensible idea!
Extend Metrolink from Eccles ro Bolton along the trackbed of the Great Moor St line ?
No idea of the figure, I mean it is a simple site to build on therefore the costs should be lower than more complex new stations. The CLC runs right next to the Metrolink stop and could share its (limited) facilities. Compared with the cost of an island platform on a new stretch of viaduct that should be very cheap. It will still be excessive compared to outside the industry though!
Plenty of large airports have their own people mover / train systems to connect multiple terminals and the railway station is a long walk from the largest terminal. 1.5 miles from station to terminals 1 and 3 would have been viable. I didn't mean something litterally the same capacity and design as Birmingham.
The journey time would be very long and even in the context of city centre capacity schemes it would be a large investment. Every Metrolink line has a cost more than platforms 15 and 16. Eccles town centre to station would be very comparable with the Media City spur (360 metres) which I think cost £18m including extra trams. Eccles to Harbour city still only needs a single tram every 12 minutes despite being opened in the late 90s while the rest of the line is regularly overcrowded with double the capacity. Linking Metrolink to Eccles Railway Station to redistribute passengers traveling from west of Manchester to Salford Quays including stopping Wigan services at Eccles would help both city centre railway and Metrolink capacity problems.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
But the Styal line was not and is not a mainline. It was somewhere between a low frequency urban S-Bahn and a rural backwater. For the same thing to have worked, they'd probably have had to build it at Woodford Aerodrome instead. Well, that or stop WCML and XC trains serving Stockport, but that wouldn't be popular.
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edwin_m
Veteran Member
Quicker for most people to walk between Oxford Road and St Peters Square than to go via Piccadilly.
There's no capacity and probably no demand for more than a couple of trains per hour to run the length of the Styal line and continue towards Crewe, so most trains would still have terminated. The situation in central Manchester would have been exactly the same.
LOL The Irony
On Moderation
The Deansgate situation can be solved by putting bigger buses on Metroshuttle 2. It currently uses little Optare Solo's but can be upgraded to Versa's bigger than those on Metroshuttle 1.
EDIT: I like it how we all forgot about Metroshuttle...
EDIT: I like it how we all forgot about Metroshuttle...
From my experience over the past couple of days: it's a absolute mess.
20 minutes late from Levenshulme to Wilmslow yesterday thanks to congestion through 13/14. Ended up getting on the service to Buxton and changing at Stockport to get the Virgin train to Wilmslow.
Chaos today following a signalling failure through Manchester. Some commuter trains delayed by upto an hour. It's just a joke.
I gave up and went for pint with a couple of friends in Manchester. I'm claiming compensation anyway and I don't care because I've had enough! It's a complete piss-take.
Sadly, all passengers need to take any opportunity to financially ram home the issue to the TOC and the government. I really urge anyone on these forums to take advantage.
One gets the feeling the government will only build these platforms and upgrades to the city centre corridor only when the TOCs come knocking and say it's financially unsustainable due to the amount of compensation they are having to pay out. That is the truth and I think we all know it secretly.
Only then following the public embarrassment of multiple franchises being returned to the government will that prat Grayling will get off his lazy backside and actually do something.
20 minutes late from Levenshulme to Wilmslow yesterday thanks to congestion through 13/14. Ended up getting on the service to Buxton and changing at Stockport to get the Virgin train to Wilmslow.
Chaos today following a signalling failure through Manchester. Some commuter trains delayed by upto an hour. It's just a joke.
I gave up and went for pint with a couple of friends in Manchester. I'm claiming compensation anyway and I don't care because I've had enough! It's a complete piss-take.
Sadly, all passengers need to take any opportunity to financially ram home the issue to the TOC and the government. I really urge anyone on these forums to take advantage.
One gets the feeling the government will only build these platforms and upgrades to the city centre corridor only when the TOCs come knocking and say it's financially unsustainable due to the amount of compensation they are having to pay out. That is the truth and I think we all know it secretly.
Only then following the public embarrassment of multiple franchises being returned to the government will that prat Grayling will get off his lazy backside and actually do something.
notlob.divad
Established Member
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I agree with what you are saying. A 2 platform station or 2 through and some terminators on the Styal line would have been far better. In addition to the railway station and 3 terminals, an airport people mover could easily have served the remote car parks, and car hire facility. And it would be the obvious thing to extend out to HS2. It would have been a far better solution in the long run.
Xenophon PCDGS
Veteran Member
Is it not the case that current thinking sees the continuation of the Manchester Airport Metrolink stop to Terminal 2 and any future expansion of the Metrolink system still needs thought as to the cost and financing implications.
If my memory serves me right, the intermediate stations along the line you so describe were those at Monton Green, Worsley, Walkden Low Level, Little Hulton, Plodder Lane, and I think that it is a possibility that obstructions now exist along certain parts of the said route. I would be interested to hear of informed comment from people on this website as to time period envisaged for full line construction to the standards currently applying that would be required and the number of new trams that would be required to run the extended service from Eccles, noting the extended time requirements of such journeys to allow timetabled journey requirements.
Xenophon PCDGS
Veteran Member
I assume that the Wigan station that you refer to in the emboldened part of your posting above would be the one at Wigan North Western. Currently between Manchester and that station, the only two stations are at Eccles and Patricroft, whereas the current services from Manchester to Wigan Wallgate via Atherton and via Bolton have many more intermediate stations en route.
Looking very briefly at the satellite view on Google Maps, what looks like the former railway line is in no fit state, curtailed and built upon at both ends.
Most notably:
-The M602 and an industrial estate built across the Eccles end of the formation (street running/bridging to access)
-Most of the route through Waldken/Worsley now a foot/cycle path
-Bridging required of the M61
-Housing estate built on the formation near Plodder Lane
-Industrial estates on final approach to Bolton
Latter two could be addressed by street running, especially if line diverted to serve Royal Bolton Hospital, and run into Town Centre. Quite alot of the earthworks where the line bisects Minerva Rd still preseng (albeit probably falling down)
LOL The Irony
On Moderation
Metroshuttle 2. It stops at both Oxford Road and Deansgate stations in both directions. And it's free! Just put bigger buses on it.
Xenophon PCDGS
Veteran Member
Noting what you say above, did your researches show how many trains per hour are currently timetabled to stop at Deansgate station.
Incidentally, it must have cost some amount of money to ensure that the new connecting bridge from Deansgate railway station to Deansgate-Castlefield Metrolink station (now with an extra tram platform there) was so constructed. If it was known that there would have been a possibility that Deansgate railway station was scheduled for closure, I am sure that the incurred costs of this new connection bridge would have not been spent.
It is unbelievably slow. Its faster and more reliable to walk. It would be better to have Liverpool CLC services stop at Cornbrook and Liverpool and Wigan NW services at a Eccles Metrolink/Rail interchange and just stop services from Salford Crescent direction at Deansgate which would help the timetable reliability.
Xenophon PCDGS
Veteran Member
May I ask if you are aware of the location of the existing Heald Green railway station? It is situated on Finney Lane, the main road through Heald Green with bus stops close by in both the Wythenshawe and the Stockport bound routes. The station is almost on the border with the Moss Nook part of Wythenshawe and it is only a short distance from that railway station in a cutting of some depth to the chord that leads to the line to Manchester Airport.
Constructing a new railway station nearer to the existing chord leading to the Manchester Airport station away from the present site in that location would prove somewhat difficult and there are no pre-existing roads to use as connections to such a new railway station. There are business parks with buildings constructed up to the line of the existing railway and there appears to be some railway items in the said cutting.
Do not forget that the A555 new road leading to Manchester Airport already in construction passes through the same area with associated bridgeworks already constructed over the railway line.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
It appears that from 1000 to 1059 today, 24 in-service passenger trains pass through Deansgate (counting both directions) but only 8 of them call, if that's any help? It's a tiny minority.
Xenophon PCDGS
Veteran Member
You must have a different understanding of the word "tiny" to me, as 8 trains out of 24 equate to 33%.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
It's still not many of them - fewer than half.
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