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Isn't the NHS wonderful

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Warwick

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NHS wonderful. One minute I was walking along, the next I was on the pavement gasping and panting. Off I went in the big green and white taxi with the blue flashing lights. Aparrently my ticker had decided to go off on one at about 150 BPM. Corr! Now on some magic pills for a while and currently travelling home on the 12.30 Reading to Penzance. I was in Horsham at the time.
 
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WelshBluebird

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Indeed. I really do wish think that a lot of people really do take it for granted and don't realise how bad some other places have it. Of course that doesn't mean it is perfect (it is far from), but if you looked at some of the US based news / opinion pieces about "the horrors of socialised healthcare", you'd be forgiven for thinking they were talking about another planet!
 
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The_Train

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I'm a big fan of the NHS and yeah I do think that those that moan about it do take it for granted. I suspect they would moan a hell of a lot more if we went for something like the American model for health care instead

Edit: hope you are feeling much better and these magic pills do the trick for you Warwick :)
 

Howardh

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NHS wonderful. One minute I was walking along, the next I was on the pavement gasping and panting. Off I went in the big green and white taxi with the blue flashing lights. Aparrently my ticker had decided to go off on one at about 150 BPM. Corr! Now on some magic pills for a while and currently travelling home on the 12.30 Reading to Penzance. I was in Horsham at the time.
Wow, had there been any prior indication beforehand or was this totally out of the blue? BTW when it's an emergency the NHS are fabulous.
 

Bletchleyite

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NHS wonderful. One minute I was walking along, the next I was on the pavement gasping and panting. Off I went in the big green and white taxi with the blue flashing lights. Aparrently my ticker had decided to go off on one at about 150 BPM. Corr! Now on some magic pills for a while and currently travelling home on the 12.30 Reading to Penzance. I was in Horsham at the time.

They can be a bit slow at investigating complex stuff at times, but for "I'm broken, fix me" there is no organisation I would trust more.

Get well soon by the way!
 

Warwick

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Wow, had there been any prior indication beforehand or was this totally out of the blue? BTW when it's an emergency the NHS are fabulous.
Nope, just a bolt from the blue. Apart from a terrible five weeks of Glandular Fever in 1985 I've never really had a day's sickness apart from the occasional cold.
 
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Sorry, no, complete shambles and nothing to do with funding. Recent unpleasant experience caused by system, culture and inattentive staff (yak yak yak yak yak yak, do those nurses ever stop chatting to each other?). My advice to anyone attending hospital in the UK is to make sure you have a chaperone with you at all times, to monitor the process and make sure staff do their job, especially when the patient gets so dosed up on morphine she loses what little cognitive function she has left. Fortunately, the NHS is so screwed, they will actually pay for you to get treatment in France if you say the right thing to your GP.

Yes, if something goes wrong, there is sufficient competence in the NHS to fix it, and with the wind behind you the process might be smooth, but I hardly see people dying on the streets in France, Germany, or Belgium. Dutch state healthcare approaches the UK for its awfulness, but the hospitals are cleaner.
 

Howardh

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Nope, just a bolt from the blue. Apart from a terrible five weeks of Glandular Fever in 1985 I've never really had a day's sickness apart from the occasional cold.
Thanks. Wonder if it helps if we all had scans at regular intervals? Admittedly that's one hell of a strain on the NHS - and would they show anything anyway?
 

Senex

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Sorry, no, complete shambles and nothing to do with funding. Recent unpleasant experience caused by system, culture and inattentive staff (yak yak yak yak yak yak, do those nurses ever stop chatting to each other?). My advice to anyone attending hospital in the UK is to make sure you have a chaperone with you at all times, to monitor the process and make sure staff do their job, especially when the patient gets so dosed up on morphine she loses what little cognitive function she has left. Fortunately, the NHS is so screwed, they will actually pay for you to get treatment in France if you say the right thing to your GP.

Yes, if something goes wrong, there is sufficient competence in the NHS to fix it, and with the wind behind you the process might be smooth, but I hardly see people dying on the streets in France, Germany, or Belgium. Dutch state healthcare approaches the UK for its awfulness, but the hospitals are cleaner.
I agree with you completely. In comparison with the medical treatment you get and the way you are treated by staff in the best of the systems of our European neighbours the NHS really stands out as an example of socialist medicine — we'll give you what we choose, when we choose to do it, and you'll just be grateful and pay up in your taxes. Certainly I'd not want to see the US "system" of access to medical care apply here, but who has suggested we should have a US system rather than learn from our European neighbours who have progressed so far beyond us in the last 70 years since Bevin set up the NHS? Why is it that all those who want to praise the NHS always make the comparison with the US and never with Europe? And why do we hear so little of the fairly recent statistics that shew that the NHS is not at all up at the top in terms of outcomes? And the usual, of course. Why is the first non-urgent appointment I can get with a GP three weeks away?
 

DarloRich

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Sorry, no, complete shambles and nothing to do with funding. Recent unpleasant experience caused by system, culture and inattentive staff (yak yak yak yak yak yak, do those nurses ever stop chatting to each other?). My advice to anyone attending hospital in the UK is to make sure you have a chaperone with you at all times, to monitor the process and make sure staff do their job, especially when the patient gets so dosed up on morphine she loses what little cognitive function she has left. Fortunately, the NHS is so screwed, they will actually pay for you to get treatment in France if you say the right thing to your GP.

Yes, if something goes wrong, there is sufficient competence in the NHS to fix it, and with the wind behind you the process might be smooth, but I hardly see people dying on the streets in France, Germany, or Belgium. Dutch state healthcare approaches the UK for its awfulness, but the hospitals are cleaner.

I agree with you completely. In comparison with the medical treatment you get and the way you are treated by staff in the best of the systems of our European neighbours the NHS really stands out as an example of socialist medicine — we'll give you what we choose, when we choose to do it, and you'll just be grateful and pay up in your taxes. Certainly I'd not want to see the US "system" of access to medical care apply here, but who has suggested we should have a US system rather than learn from our European neighbours who have progressed so far beyond us in the last 70 years since Bevin set up the NHS? Why is it that all those who want to praise the NHS always make the comparison with the US and never with Europe? And why do we hear so little of the fairly recent statistics that shew that the NHS is not at all up at the top in terms of outcomes? And the usual, of course. Why is the first non-urgent appointment I can get with a GP three weeks away?

this is silly bordering on preposterous - especially the first quote. You are welcome to your opinion. It does not match mine.
 
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Bromley boy

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NHS wonderful. One minute I was walking along, the next I was on the pavement gasping and panting. Off I went in the big green and white taxi with the blue flashing lights. Aparrently my ticker had decided to go off on one at about 150 BPM. Corr! Now on some magic pills for a while and currently travelling home on the 12.30 Reading to Penzance. I was in Horsham at the time.

Get well soon - sounds like a nasty turn of events and glad to hear you’re on the mend.

Isn't the NHS wonderful - yes, yes it is.

I’m probably more on the side of @TubeMapCentral and @Senex on this one. Certainly based on my experiences with various relatives being treated for things over the years. A case in point: my brother (who suffers from chrone’s disease) had to go into hospital recently. He was unfortunate enough to be admitted on a Friday and the hospital basically shut down and did nothing over the weekend. He ended up staying in for several days, needlessly occupying a bed, when he could have been discharged within 48 hours had the necessary investigations been performed over the weekend.

Add in the usual issues of doctors being as rare as rocking horse droppings, nurses with little in the way of compassion or people skills, a complete lack of information etc.

They treat emergency stuff well, but the system is clearly highly inefficient and we are constantly told it’s near breaking point. The only solution we ever hear proposed is to chuck more money into the bottomless pit, there doesn’t seem to be much appetite to look at other ways it could be improved.

I also wouldn’t favour a US style system, but I worry that people are so blinded by their love for the NHS that they view it through rose tinted glasses and are unwilling to criticise its obvious failings.
 

DarloRich

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Get well soon - sounds like a nasty turn of events and glad to hear you’re on the mend.



I’m probably more on the side of @TubeMapCentral and @Senex on this one. Certainly based on my experiences with various relatives being treated for things over the years. A case in point: my brother (who suffers from chrone’s disease) had to go into hospital recently. He was unfortunate enough to be admitted on a Friday and the hospital basically shut down and did nothing over the weekend. He ended up staying in for several days, needlessly occupying a bed, when he could have been discharged within 48 hours had the necessary investigations been performed over the weekend.

Add in the usual issues of doctors being as rare as rocking horse droppings, nurses with little in the way of compassion or people skills, a complete lack of information etc.

They treat emergency stuff well, but the system is clearly highly inefficient and we are constantly told it’s near breaking point. The only solution we ever hear proposed is to chuck more money into the bottomless pit, there doesn’t seem to be much appetite to look at other ways it could be improved.

I also wouldn’t favour a US style system, but I worry that people are so blinded by their love for the NHS that they view it through rose tinted glasses and are unwilling to criticise its obvious failings.

I don't agree and I wont ever agree. I have my own personal reasons why I don't agree but I don't really want to go into them. All I will say is that the doctors and nurses worked inhumanly hard despite looking dog tired, were professional beyond reproach, displayed a level of compassion and empathy that was incredible and supported us at an very difficult time. The hospital was spotless and the facilities top notch. There is absolutely no chance that we could have ever paid for that service. There is little chance my dad could ever have afforded insurance to pay for it even if he was able to get it - With his health issues he would have been declined anyway. That is why my view doesn't chime with those above. You and they are welcome to air their views. I don't agree with them.

None of that suggests that the NHS is perfect, it isn't. Part of the problem is the system and internal arrangements within the NHS. The other ( perhaps a larger reason) is the Tory approach to public sector spending coupled with their obsession with internal markets and competition. Money alone wont fix the issues but more money would help fix some of the issues and make the service better.

As an aside I think insurance for healthcare is disgusting. My family and I cant afford insurance. I might get it with work but insurance companies will try every trick in the book to gip you out of cover and not pay up. They are ba$tard$. I don't want to beg them to pay for my health treatment and then rund some crowd funder when they refuse to cover you! We are a rich country and should be able to fund a decent health service from general taxation. Perhaps if more rich Tories paid their share rather than stashing their money in a trust fund registered in some tax haven we might be able to afford it.

EDIT - i want to point out i am not having a go at @BromleyBoy . I just don't agree entirely.
 
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Bromley boy

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I don't agree and I wont ever agree. I have my own personal reasons why I don't agree but I don't really want to go into them. All I will say is that the doctors and nurses worked inhumanly hard despite looking dog tired, were professional beyond reproach, displayed a level of compassion and empathy that was incredible and supported us at an very difficult time. The hospital was spotless and the facilities top notch. There is absolutely no chance that we could have ever paid for that service. There is little chance my dad could ever have afforded insurance to pay for it even if he was able to get it - With his health issues he would have been declined anyway. That is why my view doesn't chime with those above. You and they are welcome to air their views. I don't agree with them.

None of that suggests that the NHS is perfect, it isn't. Part of the problem is the system and internal arrangements within the NHS. The other ( perhaps a larger reason) is the Tory approach to public sector spending coupled with their obsession with internal markets and competition. Money alone wont fix the issues but more money would help fix some of the issues and make the service better.

As an aside I think insurance for healthcare is disgusting. My family and I cant afford insurance. I might get it with work but insurance companies will try every trick in the book to gip you out of cover and not pay up. They are ba$tard$. I don't want to beg them to pay for my health treatment and then rund some crowd funder when they refuse to cover you! We are a rich country and should be able to fund a decent health service from general taxation. Perhaps if more rich Tories paid their share rather than stashing their money in a trust fund registered in some tax haven we might be able to afford it.

But isn’t that an emotional argument rather than a dispassionate one? If we are slavishly uncritical of the NHS because of emotion, and give it “sacred cow” status, the danger is that it will never improve.

I’m glad you had and your family had a good experience but sadly, for many of us, that clearly hasn’t been the case.

I agree with you that the problems with the NHS aren’t down to the front line staff, but about the way it functions as an institution: we’ve all seen the headlines about appalling procurement decisions and wastage - how much was spent on that infamous (and abandoned) IT system?

As others have noted it is possible to admit that the NHS is grossly inefficient and in need of fundamental reform without advocating for an insurance based system.

The US insurance system is an appalling one and I would never want that here but, as others have said, other parts of Europe get better healthcare outcomes without that system. Perhaps we could learn something from them?

EDIT - i want to point out i am not having a go at @BromleyBoy . I just don't agree entirely.

No worries, I didn’t take it as that at all. It’s an interesting discussion.
 

DarloRich

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But isn’t that an emotional argument rather than a dispassionate one? If we are slavishly uncritical of the NHS because of emotion, and give it “sacred cow” status, the danger is that it will never improve.

maybe - but it should be a sacred cow. We should all celebrate the fact that if we are ill the NHS treats us, free at the point of use. That doesn't mean it shouldn't change but i would rather we didn't sell it down the river to save a few quid for rich Tories. Too many people seem happy to do that. I wonder why.

I’m glad you had and your family had a good experience but sadly, for many of us, that clearly hasn’t been the case.

it wasn't a good experience in any way but that wasn't the fault of the NHS

I agree with you that the problems with the NHS aren’t down to the front line staff, but about the way it functions as an institution: we’ve all seen the headlines about appalling procurement decisions and wastage - how much was spent on that infamous (and abandoned) IT system?

I agree - however I wonder if you agree more money might also help.

As others have noted it is possible to admit that the NHS is grossly inefficient and in need of fundamental reform without advocating for an insurance based system.

The US insurance system is an appalling one and I would never want that here but, as others have said, other parts of Europe get better healthcare outcomes without that system. Perhaps we could learn something from them?

Get the rich Tories to pay their share and I will agree to look at other systems. Why should we give up something that makes out lives better to help them make theirs slightly better?
 

GusB

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I currently have mixed feelings about the NHS. Generally speaking, NHS staff do a fantastic job, and they do it under huge pressure, but the system does have its faults. My dad recently had a stroke, and was discharged from hospital and classed as being "independent". With a visual impairment and the loss of memory of the most recent events in his life, it has been a struggle for him to get used to being back home. I was initially supposed to stay with him for a few days to help him settle back in, but a fortnight later I was still there. It was a week before the stroke nurse visited him at home, and even then it seemed that it was just a box-ticking exercise. There was a lack of proper communication between the stroke ward and his local GP practice - the fact that his medication had changed, and that it should also be supplied in a dosette box was not passed on. After the initial week's supply of drugs from the hospital ran out, I had to dish out his meds from what he had in the house already, but for some pills the dosage had changed and I hadn't spotted that right away - I was terrified that I'd buggered things up! Once we'd got the correct pills sorted out, and purchased a dosette box from Boots, only then did I feel able to actually get home for a few days. Even then, I felt extremely guilty for leaving him, but a) he is going to have to learn to cope on his own again, and b) I needed a break.

In principle I would agree the NHS is a Good Thing. In practice, though, it often does seem to be very disjointed. In the cases where they do provide excellent care for the patient, they often forget the impact on those at home who deal with the aftermath of events like this. An information pack containing the contact details for various charitable organisations isn't exactly the best support!
 
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Bromley boy

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maybe - but it should be a sacred cow. We should all celebrate the fact that if we are ill the NHS treats us, free at the point of use. That doesn't mean it shouldn't change but i would rather we didn't sell it down the river to save a few quid for rich Tories. Too many people seem happy to do that. I wonder why.

We should certainly celebrate the good bits, but we should also lament the bad bits: profligate waste; gross inefficiency; health outcomes and cancer survival rates that lag behind much of the developed world. I’m sure you’ll agree none of those are “wonderful”?

It strikes me that the NHS is similar to the railway in many respects: institutional, old fashioned with good bits, bad bits, things that could be done better etc. The difference is that, while the railway is everyone’s favourite whipping boy, people are blind to the failings of the NHS for irrational reasons and it therefore gets away with murder!

I agree - however I wonder if you agree more money might also help.

I’d like to know the money being spent already isn’t being wasted. If hundreds of millions per year are being squandered (and it seems they are), hundreds more millions won’t help.

Keep in mind the NHS budget increases every year and was ringfenced from austerity. I’m not for one minute suggesting it shouldn’t have been, but I’d like a bit more budgetary oversight to prevent stories like this:

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/nhs-forced-to-pay-1-500-for-2-pot-of-moisturiser-3d0ckn3gh

The owner of the high street chemist Boots charged the NHS as much as £1,500 for single pots of moisturiser that others have sold for less than £2.

Boots sent a £1,579 bill to the health service for one 500ml tub of a specially made cream for patients with skin problems in 2016, according to payment records seen by The Times.

And this:

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...ry-tim-briggs-professor-quality-a7876326.html

"If you could get the infection rate across the country down to 0.2% just in hip and knee replacements, you'd save the NHS every year £250 million [to] £300 million, just by improving the quality of care."

Prof Briggs' audit has identified means of saving hundreds of millions of pounds every year if the most efficient practices are rolled out across the country.

Get the rich Tories to pay their share and I will agree to look at other systems. Why should we give up something that makes out lives better to help them make theirs slightly better?

Nobody is asking for the NHS to be given up, they’re simply asking why it never seems to improve and we see the same old Groundhog Day headlines year after year, despite its gold plated, ringfenced budget.

I don’t really see the relevance of the comments about rich Tories not paying enough tax (that has the makings of another long discussion about tax!) when the NHS’s budget has been ringfenced?
 
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Bromley boy

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I currently have mixed feelings about the NHS. Generally speaking, NHS staff do a fantastic job, and they do it under huge pressure, but the system does have its faults. My dad recently had a stroke, and was discharged from hospital and classed as being "independent". With a visual impairment and the loss of memory of the most recent events in his life, it has been a struggle for him to get used to being back home. I was initially supposed to stay with him for a few days to help him settle back in, but a fortnight later I was still there. With the loss of peripheral vision on his left side, and the loss of short to medium term memory, he really struggled. It was a week before the stroke nurse visited him at home, and even then it seemed that it was just a box-ticking exercise. There was a lack of proper communication between the stroke ward and his local GP practice - the fact that his medication had changed, and that it should also be supplied in a dosette box was not passed on. After the initial week's supply of drugs from the hospital ran out, I had to dish out his meds from what he had in the house already, but for some pills the dosage had changed and I hadn't spotted that right away - I was terrified that I'd buggered things up! Once we'd got the correct pills sorted out, and purchased a dosette box from Boots, only then did I feel able to actually get home for a few days. Even then, I felt extremely guilty for leaving him, but a) he is going to have to learn to cope on his own again, and b) I needed a break.

In principle I would agree the NHS is a Good Thing. In practice, though, it often does seem to be very disjointed. In the cases where they do provide excellent care for the patient, they often forget the impact on those at home who deal with the aftermath of events like this. An information pack containing the contact details for various charitable organisations isn't exactly the best support!

Thanks for that.

That’s another sad and very personal example of the human cost of the NHS’s scandalous failure to get the basics right.

Free at the point of use healthcare is a good strategy, but it clearly needs to be delivered better.
 

Senex

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I don't agree and I wont ever agree. I have my own personal reasons why I don't agree but I don't really want to go into them. All I will say is that the doctors and nurses worked inhumanly hard despite looking dog tired, were professional beyond reproach, displayed a level of compassion and empathy that was incredible and supported us at an very difficult time. The hospital was spotless and the facilities top notch.
So you have your experiences, and I have mine which are clearly very different indeed under all the heads you mention. Yours colour your views and mine colour mine, and it's quite clear not only from what others contribute here but also from the string of hospital horror stories from Stafford onwards that whilst some people do have brilliant expieriences of the NHS (especially when it's been a question of emergency care) others of us have had very different experiences indeed. And some of us are in a position to compare the care we have received in Germany or France or some other countries (and also have friends who have told us all about the horrors of the US system).
 
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I will just add that personal anecdotes of the NHS doing its basic job correctly are worthless, in the context of just how low the NHS can sink. This is what we have to guard against as individuals, hence my chaperone comment. If you hit the NHS on a bad day, and you have something nasty wrong with you, and you don't have a hospital chaperone, then that experience could literally kill you. To the people who have been lucky so far, fantastic, but do you think you will always be lucky? Good! I personally would not trust something as important as the rest of my life to luck. My personal bad experiences, and the bad experiences of people I know personally, span hospitals in Newcastle, Colchester, and Liverpool. They are all basically the same, and match the newspaper stories in all their unpleasant detail, patients being neglected in hospitals stuffed with indifferent staff.

Perhaps the experience of sitting with your partner, who is doubled up in agony, vomiting, who has been promised pain killers and anti-emetics, and which have still not turned up an hour later (I was watching the clock, what else can you do?) might change an opinion. Asking nurses for assistance had no effect (they were not stressed, and overworked, they just did not care, their constant yacking about everything except their hospital duties became somewhat unpleasant in this context after a while) and I was only able to see the ward manager to complain after my second request for her to see me. She inspired no confidence whatsoever. Previous and subsequent events all demonstrated that everything was an inefficient shambles at every level.

The waiting list for gallstone operations is up to ten months (dragging London into the equation of bad places to be ill), people die on the waiting list, the complications are very unpleasant. There are entire forums of people on the waiting list, trying to manage their symptoms by diet, desperate for treatment, hoping the time bomb ticking inside them will not go off. So much for free treatment for everyone, if you die on a waiting list, it is irrelevant that the treatment is free, because you did not get any. The cost of going private is around £5000, that is what rich people do without insurance. So much for free healthcare for everyone.

The French experience was a revelation, efficient, clean (all British hospitals I have ever set foot in smell dirty no matter how they look), effective. The specialist had his diary on computer, booked straight into a time slot, with availability from SEVEN days ahead, the anaesthatist was seen in advance, all relevant medical history checked out before surgery commenced. I joke about French bureaucracy, but it does the job. Patients get a personal room, and for a nominal fee the partner can sleep overnight in the same room. The NHS pays for this, but you really need to speak French to get through the process fluidly. Perhaps the French system goes wrong sometimes too, and fails patients, but the lack of a waiting list is massively important for wellbeing.

My partner is Dutch, and has worked extensively throughout Europe, and therefore knows well that UK and Dutch healthcare is amongst the worst, and that other countries are so much better. One of the big topics of itinerant Europeans is surviving British healthcare if they have to relocate to the UK.

The point that the NHS is often capable of dong its job eventually is irrelevant, this is negated by the fact that all other European countries can do this too. The clincher is that the NHS can often, through indifference and disorganisation, fail to function to the point that it can occasionally literally kill the patient. Throwing more money at this toxic culture won't fix anything, rather, it will only reinforce the bad behaviour: imcompetence leads to financial rewards. It is preposterous to stick ones head in the sand, ignore the data, and refuse to consider that alternatives might be better, this is definitely a situation where certain opinions are demonstrably misguided.
 

AlterEgo

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The NHS enjoys an unhealthily privileged political position where it’s untouchable and verboten to discuss its failings.

I’d invite anyone - and that includes me - who’s had their life saved by the medical profession in Britain to consider whether they’d be dead in Germany. (Clue: you probably wouldn’t be!)
 

NSEFAN

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yak yak yak yak yak yak, do those nurses ever stop chatting to each other?)
On this very specific point, perhaps you are interpreting chatter to mean that they are not doing their job? Have you considered how miserable it must be to be surrounded by sick and dying people all day, and the effect this might have on their own health? I'd much rather the nurses retain some sanity and humanity by being able to have friendly conversation, even if, God forbid, they do this within ear shot of a patient.[/QUOTE]
 
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Read my second post, absence of attention, competence, and humanity observed. As the non-sick member of the duo, I was able to monitor the situation very carefully. The chatter disturbs the patients and distracts attention from their job. Buses have a sign at the front saying 'do not talk to the driver or distract his attention' for good reason.
 

trash80

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Re: people comparing the UK health system to the US and not Europe

To be honest people compare the UK to the US all the time rather than Europe and it really annoys me. People get seduced into thinking UK-US is a valid comparison because of the language but in reality the two countries are very distinct in culture, society and system. We do need to compare more with systems and cultures that are much closer to ourselves i.e. Europe, though of course thats unlikely in the current climate :p
 

underbank

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No, I don't think the NHS is wonderful at all. It killed my mother and father in law due to incompetence, inactivity, negligence and general systematic failures. I could write a book about the catalogue of foul ups that killed my FIL. If it were just one dept or one employee, it would just about be acceptable, but it was time and time again, with later staff covering up mistakes of earlier ones. 2 or 3 times we were told he wouldn't last the night, but when we delved deeper, it was simply that they couldn't be bothered to give him treatment, each time, we insisted and he lived through it - this wasn't a bed-ridden 90 year old, it was a healthy/fit newly retired 65 year old who doctors/nurses time and time again decided (without us knowing) that he wasn't worth treating! That's the thing I hate most about it - I can accept lack of resources etc., but I can't accept the incompetence and institutional covering-up that's endemic.
 

Welly

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Can I point out that in terms of money per head of population the UK's publically funded NHS is the lowest cost healthcare provider in the developed world? The infamous US insurance funded healthcare provision is twice the amount! Other European countries have a mixture of publically and insurance funded healthcare.
 

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Can I point out that in terms of money per head of population the UK's publically funded NHS is the lowest cost healthcare provider in the developed world? The infamous US insurance funded healthcare provision is twice the amount! Other European countries have a mixture of publically and insurance funded healthcare.

Glad to hear we aren’t paying too much for the crap healthcare we get from the NHS.
 

DarloRich

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We should certainly celebrate the good bits, but we should also lament the bad bits: profligate waste; gross inefficiency; health outcomes and cancer survival rates that lag behind much of the developed world. I’m sure you’ll agree none of those are “wonderful”?

It strikes me that the NHS is similar to the railway in many respects: institutional, old fashioned with good bits, bad bits, things that could be done better etc. The difference is that, while the railway is everyone’s favourite whipping boy, people are blind to the failings of the NHS for irrational reasons and it therefore gets away with murder!

I’d like to know the money being spent already isn’t being wasted. If hundreds of millions per year are being squandered (and it seems they are), hundreds more millions won’t help.

Keep in mind the NHS budget increases every year and was ringfenced from austerity. I’m not for one minute suggesting it shouldn’t have been, but I’d like a bit more budgetary oversight to prevent stories like this:

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/nhs-forced-to-pay-1-500-for-2-pot-of-moisturiser-3d0ckn3gh



And this:

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/nhs-money-funding-wasting-standards-care-improve-healthcare-inquiry-tim-briggs-professor-quality-a7876326.html

I am very keen to challenge and fix waste an inefficiency however more money would fix things like a shortage of Doctors and nurses. It is interesting you cant concede that point. I doubt money is wasted in employing health care professionals.

And while the NHS budget may be protected ( i disagree) other budgets have been slashed forcing the NHS to pick up the slack nor does the NHS budget increase as much as needed year on year. Government policy is directly in whole or part responsible for the problems in the NHS.

Nobody is asking for the NHS to be given up, they’re simply asking why it never seems to improve and we see the same old Groundhog Day headlines year after year, despite its gold plated, ringfenced budget.

the problem is that the first change starts the slide to an insurance based system.

I don’t really see the relevance of the comments about rich Tories not paying enough tax (that has the makings of another long discussion about tax!) when the NHS’s budget has been ringfenced?

perhaps if they paid tax like we have to we might be able to afford a better service and I would be less suspicious about their motives to "reform" the NHS.

So you have your experiences, and I have mine which are clearly very different indeed under all the heads you mention. Yours colour your views and mine colour mine, and it's quite clear not only from what others contribute here but also from the string of hospital horror stories from Stafford onwards that whilst some people do have brilliant expieriences of the NHS (especially when it's been a question of emergency care) others of us have had very different experiences indeed. And some of us are in a position to compare the care we have received in Germany or France or some other countries (and also have friends who have told us all about the horrors of the US system).

I am not in a position to compare care in other countries.

I will also point out we only ever hear the bad news stories in the papers.

I will just add that personal anecdotes of the NHS doing its basic job correctly are worthless, in the context of just how low the NHS can sink. This is what we have to guard against as individuals, hence my chaperone comment. If you hit the NHS on a bad day, and you have something nasty wrong with you, and you don't have a hospital chaperone, then that experience could literally kill you. To the people who have been lucky so far, fantastic, but do you think you will always be lucky? Good! I personally would not trust something as important as the rest of my life to luck. My personal bad experiences, and the bad experiences of people I know personally, span hospitals in Newcastle, Colchester, and Liverpool. They are all basically the same, and match the newspaper stories in all their unpleasant detail, patients being neglected in hospitals stuffed with indifferent staff.

Perhaps the experience of sitting with your partner, who is doubled up in agony, vomiting, who has been promised pain killers and anti-emetics, and which have still not turned up an hour later (I was watching the clock, what else can you do?) might change an opinion. Asking nurses for assistance had no effect (they were not stressed, and overworked, they just did not care, their constant yacking about everything except their hospital duties became somewhat unpleasant in this context after a while) and I was only able to see the ward manager to complain after my second request for her to see me. She inspired no confidence whatsoever. Previous and subsequent events all demonstrated that everything was an inefficient shambles at every level.

So only your bad experiences of any evidential value but my good experience on what was the worse day of my life so far is worthless. What a roaster.

My dad didn't have a chaperone when he died, the staff were fantastic in what was a futile but bloody hard fought ( and ruinously expensive) battle to keep him alive. The hospital didn't "smell" dirty. it was spotless and was equipped with the kind of equipment I last saw on star trek. The staff talked to us regularly and let us know what was going on. This wasn't mid week office hours. it was late at night on new Years day.

The waiting list for gallstone operations is up to ten months (dragging London into the equation of bad places to be ill), people die on the waiting list, the complications are very unpleasant. There are entire forums of people on the waiting list, trying to manage their symptoms by diet, desperate for treatment, hoping the time bomb ticking inside them will not go off. So much for free treatment for everyone, if you die on a waiting list, it is irrelevant that the treatment is free, because you did not get any. The cost of going private is around £5000, that is what rich people do without insurance. So much for free healthcare for everyone.

And could that, perhaps, be due to cuts in funding and a declining number of staff overseen by our Tory government? Could it? Nah bound to be incompetence.

The French experience was a revelation, efficient, clean (all British hospitals I have ever set foot in smell dirty no matter how they look), effective. The specialist had his diary on computer, booked straight into a time slot, with availability from SEVEN days ahead, the anaesthatist was seen in advance, all relevant medical history checked out before surgery commenced. I joke about French bureaucracy, but it does the job. Patients get a personal room, and for a nominal fee the partner can sleep overnight in the same room. The NHS pays for this, but you really need to speak French to get through the process fluidly. Perhaps the French system goes wrong sometimes too, and fails patients, but the lack of a waiting list is massively important for wellbeing.

My partner is Dutch, and has worked extensively throughout Europe, and therefore knows well that UK and Dutch healthcare is amongst the worst, and that other countries are so much better. One of the big topics of itinerant Europeans is surviving British healthcare if they have to relocate to the UK.

I have worked in this country and been treated, free, in this country. I don't want to give that up. Perhaps you can afford expensive insurance and so can have access to good quality care. We cant. What happens to us less fortunate? I doubt i would get affordable insurance due to our family health history. What should do for health care? Crowdfunding?

The point that the NHS is often capable of dong its job eventually is irrelevant, this is negated by the fact that all other European countries can do this too. The clincher is that the NHS can often, through indifference and disorganisation, fail to function to the point that it can occasionally literally kill the patient. Throwing more money at this toxic culture won't fix anything, rather, it will only reinforce the bad behaviour: imcompetence leads to financial rewards. It is preposterous to stick ones head in the sand, ignore the data, and refuse to consider that alternatives might be better, this is definitely a situation where certain opinions are demonstrably misguided.

You are welcome to your opinion. I d do not agree with it. That doesn't mean change but does mean i am very reluctant to dismantle something we should be very proud of in order to save you a few quid. More money will fix some things. More money would buy more doctors and nurses. Is that a bad thing? OF COURSE waste needs to be challenged and dealt with. That should be obvious to anyone with even a smidge of brain.

Using your vast experience what is the alternative?

Read my second post, absence of attention, competence, and humanity observed. As the non-sick member of the duo, I was able to monitor the situation very carefully. The chatter disturbs the patients and distracts attention from their job. Buses have a sign at the front saying 'do not talk to the driver or distract his attention' for good reason.

Goodness me - this silliness removes any weight your postings may have! Bizarre.

I am off for a cup of tea and a clam down.
 
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