Fatal bus crash sparks calls for tougher laws on driving PCVs

[Teflon Lettuce]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-coventry-warwickshire-45561937

A bus driver who crashed into a shop, killing two people, was driving dangerously when he caused the deaths, a trial of facts has found.

The double-decker bus driven by Kailash Chander smashed into a Sainsbury's supermarket in October 2015.

He had worked for more than 70 hours in the week leading up to the crash.

Following today's verdict on the fatal Coventry bus crash there have been calls for tougher laws on driving pcv's in old age and also for stricter controls on the number of hrs a driver can work each week.

It was reported that the driver involved, who was 78 at the time of the crash and had regularly been working over 70 hrs a week. Whilst I think it ridiculous that a 78 yr old would want to work full time in any job, let alone doing something as stressful as bus driving and even more incredulous that they would want to effectively do two weeks work every week I do think it's about time that the laws on driving hrs were looked at.

I'm sure that most members of the public are unaware that, technically, a bus driver can legally work 102.5 hrs {driving for 70 of those hrs} in any given week, and furthermore a bus driver can technically work 7 days a week 52 weeks a yr. Whilst this is extreme and I'm not suggesting that any bus driver would even attempt to do so, many bus drivers are forced to work long hrs and work many of their rest days just to make ends meet due to the almost poverty wages in many parts of the industry... indeed it isn't unheard of for bus drivers to be paid either the minimum wage or barely above it.

what are other members views on the matter?

 

[GusB]

I'm aware that the 48-hour limit imposed by the Working Time Directive doesn't apply to certain professions, but I had absolutely no idea that bus drivers were allowed to work anywhere near that. I was under the impression that there was a lower ceiling imposed. Is this down to the differences between UK and EU driving rules?

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

I'm aware that the 48-hour limit imposed by the Working Time Directive doesn't apply to certain professions, but I had absolutely no idea that bus drivers were allowed to work anywhere near that. I was under the impression that there was a lower ceiling imposed. Is this down to the differences between UK and EU driving rules?

EU rules are a lot stricter as to the number of hrs you can drive. Under British rules which apply to local bus services under 50km you can drive up to 10 hrs a day with no weekly limit... whereas EU rules which apply to all other psv work limit you to a maximum 90hrs driving per fortnight... but even with EU rules those driving hrs can be spreadover a 15hr period {22 hrs if double manning}

 

[GusB]

It's ludicrous. If I was to head down the A9, it wouldn't be long before I came across a sign saying "Tiredness kills - take a break" (actually, I haven't been down the A9 in a long time, so perhaps they're not there now), yet we insanely allow professional drivers to work such long hours. I've had experience working in the taxi trade (office-based), and while it's nice when one of your drivers lands an Aberdeen - London run due to a cancelled flight/late train, the last thing I expected was for them to turn around straight away and drive back up north without proper rest.

I've already commented in the forum about the fact that the Inverness - Aberdeen service run by Stagecoach is now split into segments. Inverness - Nairn (for Aberdeen), Nairn - Elgin (for Aberdeen) etc. If this is to allow the service to be run under UK regs instead of EU, which doesn't seem to offer that much protection to drivers, we really are scraping the barrel.

What is it about our society that makes us force people to work for so long without a break? It isn't a sign of weakness to want to be able to take your mind off the job for a few minutes and have a bit of a breather.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

It's ludicrous.

What is it about our society that makes us force people to work for so long without a break? It isn't a sign of weakness to want to be able to take your mind off the job for a few minutes and have a bit of a breather.

So very true - Americans are worse -trust me.

 

[Gingerbus1991]

Im 27 and I cope, 70 odds is extreme, for those driving buses or truck etc

 

[philthetube]

Believe it or not the hours are actually very similar to those allowed to drive a train.

 

[Robertj21a]

The age issue is always going to cause debate. There's many people in their 70s who are more than capable - and many in their 20s who clearly aren't. I agree that driving anything that includes many passengers must become a slightly higher risk as you get older but where do you stop ? - a small car can cause just as many deaths/casualties.
In this particular case it does seem that the bus operator *may* have been unduly lenient with the driver, given that there's a record of many failings etc - but that's all too easy to say with hindsight.

 

[Eyersey468]

There are quite a few services that are split to get round tachograph laws and enable services to be run under domestic driving hours instead of EEC, there's a few routes we operate that are split for that reason.

I've always been told under domestic driving hours you can work a maximum of 13 days straight.

 

[philthetube]

There are quite a few services that are split to get round tachograph laws and enable services to be run under domestic driving hours instead of EEC, there's a few routes we operate that are split for that reason.

I've always been told under domestic driving hours you can work a maximum of 13 days straight.

After 13 consecutive days, (7 to many imo) you must have a 24 hour break, this can be lunch time to lunch time or any other period.

 

[Eyersey468]

After 13 consecutive days, (7 to many imo) you must have a 24 hour break, this can be lunch time to lunch time or any other period.

Aah right thanks

 

[Bletchleyite]

To be honest I think EU rules and tachos should have been enforced on all PCV work in the UK. Domestic hours are way, way too lenient and result in people doing dangerous hours.

I also think that for overnight coach it should not be allowed to count sleeping on the vehicle as a break. Nobody sleeps truly restfully in a coach seat.

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

After 13 consecutive days, (7 to many imo) you must have a 24 hour break, this can be lunch time to lunch time or any other period.

there's the nub... yes you are right.. after 13 days you must have 24 hrs rest but if you finish at 1400 on your 13th day and your next shift starts at 1401 you have had 24 hrs rest but you haven't had a day off

 

[Clip]

I'm aware that the 48-hour limit imposed by the Working Time Directive doesn't apply to certain professions, but I had absolutely no idea that bus drivers were allowed to work anywhere near that. I was under the impression that there was a lower ceiling imposed. Is this down to the differences between UK and EU driving rules?

You can opt out of that working time directive should you wish i do believe

 

[Mwanesh]

After 13 consecutive days, (7 to many imo) you must have a 24 hour break, this can be lunch time to lunch time or any other period.

You need to have a proper full day .If you work the next day you havent had a break you have worked 14 days.If someone is doing a schedule like that its illegal.When your working days are checked you will be in front of the TC .

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

You need to have a proper full day .If you work the next day you havent had a break you have worked 14 days.If someone is doing a schedule like that its illegal.When your working days are checked you will be in front of the TC .

you're wrong... the law specifically states that after 13 consecutive days you must have a 24 hour rest.... as long as you have 24 hrs between your 13th and 14th shift you have fulfilled the law and you are 100% legal.

Actually technically speaking what the law actually says is that in any 2 traffic weeks you must have a 24 hr rest, so even if you don't go to the extreme you can still work 19 days without a break as such:

Week 1: Sun Rest Mon work Tue work wed work Thu work Fri work Sat work
Week 2: Sun work Mon work Tue work wed work Thu work Fri work Sat work
Week 3: Sun work Mon work Tue work wed work Thu work Fri work Sat Rest

 

[pompeyfan]

The company I used to work for mandated that you had to have a clear rest day after 13 on. Technically you could have finished at 0200 on a Monday morning and be back for work at 0300 on the Tuesday because because the 0200 finish was classed as Sundays turn.

People in the bus industry are told that there is no money whatsoever and that efficiency is key. Apparently it’s a fine line between paying reasonably and the depot gates closing.

All you have to do is look at some of the figures for the various OpCos and there’s not a huge amount of profit in there, even if there is a high turnover.

Lots of bus drivers now are on 12 hour days with 2 1 hour unpaid breaks.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

From what I've read in the media, it seems that the driver in question was quite severely affected by both his advancing years, and the hours he was working- the former being borne out by him not actually being tried in open court for driving offences due to dementia.

More importantly, it appears that there were prior warning signs about the quality of his driving which weren't heeded by management. Whether this was down to a lack of staff to take over, or out of respect for his seniority as a pillar of his community (a former mayor, no less) is by the by. The incident was preventable, if only management (or failing that, traffic inspectors) had intervened.

The worry is that while this was clearly both an extreme situation and an extreme end result, just how much of an extreme was it?

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

People in the bus industry are told that there is no money whatsoever and that efficiency is key. Apparently it’s a fine line between paying reasonably and the depot gates closing.

All you have to do is look at some of the figures for the various OpCos and there’s not a huge amount of profit in there, even if there is a high turnover.

Lots of bus drivers now are on 12 hour days with 2 1 hour unpaid breaks.

And therein lies the nub of the problem.. even with drivers on poverty wages many routes/ companies are operating at such low profit margins that any tightening of the restrictions on working hrs would mean wages would have to go up {to retain the staff} which would mean more routes/ companies becoming loss making... leading to even more loss of network... which would lead to a crisis in the bus industry. Already, in many places, the industry is teetering on a knife edge. However, in this day and age, it is surely unacceptable that there is such very poor restriction on the number of hrs a driver can work?

Surely a starting point could be that no driver can drive more than 9 hrs a day spread over a maximum of 11 hrs and a requirement that no driver can work more than 6 consecutive days without taking a minimum of 36 hrs rest?

 

[WelshBluebird]

the former being borne out by him not actually being tried in open court for driving offences due to dementia.

In which case surely the conversation about hours is a bit of a red herring?

I have had very close first hand experience with dementia (me and my parents cared for my Gran until she passed away) and the idea of someone with the condition where it had progressed so far (for it to be a reason to avoid an open court trial means it must be pretty bad) being legally able to drive a public bus full of passengers is utterly terrifying.

From reading the details it looks like he wasn't diagnosed until after the crash, but surely there needs to be some kind of regular testing / audit to make sure drivers are still fit to drive? I would suggest that should be case for all bus drivers too not just those who are at risk from things like dementia etc.

Edit - 4 crashes in 3 years - how the hell was he still driving!!??

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

The worry is that while this was clearly both an extreme situation and an extreme end result, just how much of an extreme was it?

I'll declare my hand at this point... this story has really struck a chord with me due to my recent experience as a professional bus driver...
Due to redundancy I had to take a new job paying little over the minimum wage... working 13-14 hr spreads on a 4 day week... however just to make ends meet {ie pay my bills} I was having to work 6 days a week...in fact I was having to work 1 day a week just to pay my travel costs {being in a very rural area I had a 40 mile commute}. On top of my working day I was further spending 1.5-2 hrs a day travelling to/ from work.

If I wanted any "extras" or if I needed to have work done on my car I then had to work my 7th day and I was frequently working to the "19 day rule" {see my post above for an explanation}.

Although I appeared perfectly fit, and only being 50, suddenly without warning the long hrs caught up with me and for no reason at all I nodded off at the wheel and had a crash. I only nodded off for a second.. but it was long enough. Obviously, there and then I quit my job... literally the first thing I said to my manager when I phoned for assistance is "I quit" not to abdicate responsibility... but because I knew that I had to protect my health and the safety of other road users and my passengers.

Afterwards I worked out that some weeks I'd been out of the house for over 100 hrs a week... most of those hrs driving {the company I worked for didn't pay breaks and used every legal loophole to ensure they got the maximum amount of driving out of you as possible}

As to how common it is? many of the drivers at the company worked 1 or 2 of their rest days every week {it was a 4 day rota} meaning they were at work 60-70 hrs a week.

 

[Mwanesh]

I'll declare my hand at this point... this story has really struck a chord with me due to my recent experience as a professional bus driver...
Due to redundancy I had to take a new job paying little over the minimum wage... working 13-14 hr spreads on a 4 day week... however just to make ends meet {ie pay my bills} I was having to work 6 days a week...in fact I was having to work 1 day a week just to pay my travel costs {being in a very rural area I had a 40 mile commute}. On top of my working day I was further spending 1.5-2 hrs a day travelling to/ from work.

If I wanted any "extras" or if I needed to have work done on my car I then had to work my 7th day and I was frequently working to the "19 day rule" {see my post above for an explanation}.

Although I appeared perfectly fit, and only being 50, suddenly without warning the long hrs caught up with me and for no reason at all I nodded off at the wheel and had a crash. I only nodded off for a second.. but it was long enough. Obviously, there and then I quit my job... literally the first thing I said to my manager when I phoned for assistance is "I quit" not to abdicate responsibility... but because I knew that I had to protect my health and the safety of other road users and my passengers.

Afterwards I worked out that some weeks I'd been out of the house for over 100 hrs a week... most of those hrs driving {the company I worked for didn't pay breaks and used every legal loophole to ensure they got the maximum amount of driving out of you as possible}

As to how common it is? many of the drivers at the company worked 1 or 2 of their rest days every week {it was a 4 day rota} meaning they were at work 60-70 hrs a week.

I agree with you the commute to work is also another one that plays havoc with drivers.When i became a bus driver i moved to the Welsh Valleys and lived a few metres from the bus depot where i can walk in under 6minutes .

 

[Bletchleyite]

I agree with you the commute to work is also another one that plays havoc with drivers.When i became a bus driver i moved to the Welsh Valleys and lived a few metres from the bus depot where i can walk in under 6minutes .

It plays havoc with everything. At one point I was commuting from MK to Slough daily by car, and switched to the train (taking an hour longer and costing twice as much) after nearly causing an accident (avoided only by the other driver's actions) because I was so tired my attention lapsed. And that was with doing a desk job during the day which is far easier on the body and mind than driving a bus.

 

[Robertj21a]

It appears that the annual medical itself warrants some further attention. The long hours/days will make matters worse and I can't help thinking that drivers may need to be limited to a reduced number of hours driving once, say, 70.
In any event, in this case, I do think that Stagecoach have some questions to answer.

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

It appears that the annual medical itself warrants some further attention. The long hours/days will make matters worse and I can't help thinking that drivers may need to be limited to a reduced number of hours driving once, say, 70.
In any event, in this case, I do think that Stagecoach have some questions to answer.

There isn't any legal requirement for an annual medical for drivers under 70.. The only legal requirements for medicals is for you to have one at your initial application for a PCV licence... and then not another medical until you reach 45 after which you're required to undergo a medical at every 5 yr license renewal. Unbelievably this is something that has become more lax in recent yrs. When I originally passed my test the requirement for medicals was that you had to have your first medical on your 45th birthday now, since the scrapping of paper licences the medical requirement has been "harmonised" with the requirement to renew your photocard licence every 5 yrs... in my case, because my licence needed renewing when I was 44 I wasn't required to have a medical until I was 49!

 

[Robertj21a]

There isn't any legal requirement for an annual medical for drivers under 70.. The only legal requirements for medicals is for you to have one at your initial application for a PCV licence... and then not another medical until you reach 45 after which you're required to undergo a medical at every 5 yr license renewal. Unbelievably this is something that has become more lax in recent yrs. When I originally passed my test the requirement for medicals was that you had to have your first medical on your 45th birthday now, since the scrapping of paper licences the medical requirement has been "harmonised" with the requirement to renew your photocard licence every 5 yrs... in my case, because my licence needed renewing when I was 44 I wasn't required to have a medical until I was 49!

Yes, I knew it started to be annual at 70, hence why it's also an appropriate time to do some tightening up.
I agree that it also needs more frequent checks at younger ages.

 

[Statto]

From what I've read in the media, it seems that the driver in question was quite severely affected by both his advancing years, and the hours he was working- the former being borne out by him not actually being tried in open court for driving offences due to dementia.

More importantly, it appears that there were prior warning signs about the quality of his driving which weren't heeded by management. Whether this was down to a lack of staff to take over, or out of respect for his seniority as a pillar of his community (a former mayor, no less) is by the by. The incident was preventable, if only management (or failing that, traffic inspectors) had intervened.

The worry is that while this was clearly both an extreme situation and an extreme end result, just how much of an extreme was it?

Yep, what i've read the driver had a few incidents & had 8 warning letters about his driving leading up to the crash, makes you wonder then why he wasn't suspended at the time, & this is not a minor company either.

 

[Megafuss]

If you look at every Bus operators website, you will see what the problem is. A shortage of bus drivers. Current driver's are under pressure from controllers, ops staff etc to do overtime or work rest days. You then have the folk that will grab every hour they can. When ops staff are desperate to cover part a shift, they are not going to look to closely to see how far inside the legal window the driver is.

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

If you look at every Bus operators website, you will see what the problem is. A shortage of bus drivers. Current driver's are under pressure from controllers, ops staff etc to do overtime or work rest days. You then have the folk that will grab every hour they can. When ops staff are desperate to cover part a shift, they are not going to look to closely to see how far inside the legal window the driver is.

it's a vicious circle... the wage rates are so low for the responsibility involved, therefore people don't want the job, therefore the company relies on overtime working... at the same time, because the wages are so low the drivers HAVE to do the overtime to make ends meet... therefore there is no incentive for companies to put the rates up.. it should be noted that wages within the industry fell to real poverty levels after the recessions of the 80's and 90's when people were willing to take any job they could get... then came the boom yrs with near full employment and suddenly companies started to struggle to recruit and wages went up fairly fast {though nowhere near as much as needed to restore to previous standard of living} now, even though there is near full employment the attitude from many employers since the financial crisis is "be glad you've got a job.. in any case we can't afford to pay more"

Is it really reasonable to expect someone to take the responsibility and stress of driving a bus for £8.50 an hr? and then expect them to work 60 hrs a week to make ends meet?

 

[Statto]

If you look at every Bus operators website, you will see what the problem is. A shortage of bus drivers. Current driver's are under pressure from controllers, ops staff etc to do overtime or work rest days. You then have the folk that will grab every hour they can. When ops staff are desperate to cover part a shift, they are not going to look to closely to see how far inside the legal window the driver is.

That is true, however comes a point were passenger safety is compromised by overworking drivers.

Not helped either by drivers, driving some long routes which companies have split in order to get around the EU regulations, the bus involves was on X18 Coventry-Evesham which single journey takes over 2 hours 30 minutes, not sure if there's a mandatory driver change at Stratford on every journey, but if there isn't, with layover time can be over 5 & a half hour shift on that route alone.