Buffet cars v Trolleys

[Killingworth]

Pros and cons of both.

Long distance a buffet is better - define long distance! On a recent XC journey I joined at Sheffield but trolley didn't get to me until Darlington. I was offered a hot bacon roll, but it would have to be arranged by going back to first, heating it, and returning to me. I was leaving at Newcastle. The challenge was accepted (by then I was happy to wait until arrival for station food, but it seems there was one left he wanted to get rid of) and my very hot roll arrived near Durham, last bite taken as we entered the platform at Newcastle. But there's no room for a buffet on 4 and 5 car sets.

Trolley is offered on 4 car 158 and 3 car 185s between Sheffield and Manchester. Buffet would not be an option - and on many 185s the trolley can't get down the train for standees anyway. An EM 158 I used recently had a good range of cold food.

On an EM London service the issue I had on XC can arise if no buffet, the trolley may not arrive at my seat for an hour or more. When a buffet is available I can go and get a wider choice of food and drink whenever it's open. But when travelling alone there's the fear of losing one's seat and leaving valuables unattended

I recall travelling on a newly introduced HST out of Paddington around 1977 when a trolley was a novelty. The young lady was brilliant, stopping at every seat and the option was tea or coffee, sir? The way she put it avoiding a drink was unthinkable. Probably due to the novelty she sold to every passenger. But in those days my return journey northwards was in the first class restaurant car, available to standard class diners. A 3 course meal would take me as far as Doncaster for Hull or Derby for Sheffield, after which I was never asked to leave my seat. Further back, a dining car from Fort William towards Glasgow across Rannoch Moor........ but those days aren't coming back!

 

[NoOnesFool]

Sorry, that’s not what I was meaning, I was thinking more of being able to order, either from the trolley operator or electronically and have it made & delivered from the galley. Basically offering the opportunity to purchase the sort of stuff the first class passengers get thrown in, with at-seat delivery. To do it right & avoid the disappointment you describe you’d need to offer a pretty accurate delivery eta at the time of ordering

A system like that could well be possible in certain circumstances, i.e. if someone got on at Corby, where we have ample time to do stock management and sign in our EPOSs, scan our LOBs and fill our pump pots, then we might have time to prepare and bring it to the customer, as we can usually get a full run of even a 5 car between Corby and Kettering. On a Peak HST from Sheffield to London or the 19:01 off of ST Pancras though, it may be a different story. On Companies like LNER, the pre-order system works because there are more catering staff and they are better integrated. A First Onboard host on XC for example, as the only catering staff member onboard, simply would be having to stretch themselves in all places at once, which would probably result in First Class pax complaining about a lack of service (I know 170s don't have food heating facilites btw, just an example).

 

[theblackwatch]

My preference is neither - I prefer my bag which I have taken with me! I generally find that it contains what I want, rather than 'we are out of stock of that' or it doesn't turn up/is closed due to a staff shortage. I do realise that the majority of people appear to be able to plan far enough ahead to actually take something with them for the journey.

In all seriousness, I tend to prefer a buffet but the most I'll normally buy is a cuppa. If there's a trolley, I have to wait for it rather than being able to buy it when I want it. On the last occasion I fancied a drink, the trolley turned up 5 mins before I was due to alight. Trolleys also have a habit of being in the way when you want to go to the loo!

 

[fgwrich]

For Intercity services, a Buffet. I've had many a trip out of Paddington over the past few years where I and over commuters have enjoyed a simple beer in, and either had a nice conversation with my friends and colleagues on the way home, or every now and again my fellow commuters. I also feel that as long as they are stocked properly, ala FGW / GWR with proper coffee machines and fridges then they can rival any station shop en-route. FGW did rather well out of me a few years ago when they started stocking the instant noodle type pots (the decent ones, not the ever omni-present student food Pot Noodle!) which was a brilliant offering vice a late night sandwich or McDonalds. Not forgetting the brilliant and much missed Travelling Chef once offered by First Great Western in their prime, and the Pullman Dining too.

The trolley is a comedown, and unsurprisingly has resulted in a reduction in sales from the trolley. It's offerings are also far more limited, and from recent trips on the IETs have appeared to be hastily stocked with whatever was available, usually limited supplies chocolate bars.

A trolley can have it's uses, but not as a replacement for a buffet or onboard shop. Unfortunately, the ideology of a trolley service can be manipulated, as we currently see on the Great Western - the First Group / DfT survey asking people if they wanted an old fashioned "Buffet Car" service or "An At Seat Full Trolley Service" - Which sounds nice, but of course in reality is the opposite.

 

[NoOnesFool]

Are you referring to Mr Lee's gourmet noodles? They are rather delicious. If you ever fancy a trip up to the East Midlands or Sheffield, then I'm pleased to announce that we sell them in a range of flavours on our services out of St Pancras.

 

[LLivery]

Prefer buffets. I always know where it is if I need it. That said, I rarely use it and save money buying food and drink before I board. The thing what seems really annoying about the trolly is that it just gets in the way. Every journey you see people stuck behind a trolly stopping at every seat. Also, heaven forbid there is an emergency, isn't the trolly just blocking the way out - doing exactly what you're told not to do?

 

[dk1]

Always prefer a buffet but have to say I'm impressed with XC trolley on Voyager services where the choice is usually pretty good.

Nice to see GA have returned to standard class trolley to supplement the buffet on around 24 services per day.

 

[route:oxford]

Prefer an M&S at my departure or interchange station.

Trolley for treats, or maybe a hot drink.

Ideally, would prefer an at-seat service app for cooked food, toasties and bacon rolls etc.

 

[Jonfun]

The idea of an at seat service app gets mooted quite a bit, but its downfall usually relates to the staffing. The person running the trolley would be unlikely to be able to facilitate it as they'll be too busy taking the trolley up and down, and the number of First Class hosts on a train isn't consistent.

Pre-order has been proved to work, though, as you can manage the passenger's expectations appropriately (ie it'll be delivered within a certain timeframe rather than at a set time) and also make sure the resources are there in the right place to facilitate it and are aware of the pre-order to manage their time around it.

 

[londonbridge]

When travelling on LNER and it's previous incarnations I tend to go for a seat in the quiet coach (B), so I usually wait for the trolley as opposed to walking half the length of the train.

 

[extendedpaul]

No buffets or trolleys on Southeastern but we do have Metro vouchers. For me nothing beats a £1.99 Big Mac and fries and a flat white coffee once or twice a week on a late evening train home from Victoria. The £1.99 price has not increased for at least ten years and there is now the option of a side salad instead of the chips.

Otherwise I go for a sandwich/snack/drink deal from a station outlet. I used to patronise the trolley/buffet back in the 20th Century but there wasn't the range of choices on and near stations back then.

 

[Master29]

When travelling on LNER and it's previous incarnations I tend to go for a seat in the quiet coach (B), so I usually wait for the trolley as opposed to walking half the length of the train.

You won`t have this problem when the Azumas enter service but how long is a piece of string when that happens. At least the EC is getting them. Penzance trains should have buffets no question in my opinion.

 

[Essexman]

I asked the First Class host on GWR a couple few weeks ago and was told that on the new IEP trains Standard Class passengers can still order hot food (bacon rolls etc.). Passenger asks trolley person. They phone First Class host with order and seat number and host cooks it in kitchen and delivers to seat. This doesn’t seem to be advertised and I haven’t had a chance to try it yet.

 

[PeterC]

Prefer buffets. I always know where it is if I need it. That said, I rarely use it and save money buying food and drink before I board. The thing what seems really annoying about the trolly is that it just gets in the way. Every journey you see people stuck behind a trolly stopping at every seat. Also, heaven forbid there is an emergency, isn't the trolly just blocking the way out - doing exactly what you're told not to do?

I haven't made regular use of services with catering for several decades. As others have noted, while it is nice to have the trolley turn up at your seat that may not be when you want a drink or a snack. I don't know what they are like now but in the past you simply couldn't rely on the buffet being open or being stocked when it was. I suspect that most occasional travellers of my generation will take any advertising of catering with a fairly large pinch of salt and stock up at the station or a bring a flask from home.

 

[Tobberz]

As long as it is a *proper*, fully stocked buffet, then a buffet car. However I do have a few disappointing memories from various operators of turning up at the buffet area and being presented with effectively a trolley service which doesn't move.

But more than the practicalities of larger choice, hot food, etc... I prefer the experience of taking a walk down the train, spending a short time in the buffet car, having a chat, and so on. If there's decent space to eat there honestly I often will. Maybe its just a deranged romanticism of a different era, but there's something special about it.

 

[rs101]

Anything would be nice on most of the Greater Anglia trains between Colchester/Manningtree and London!

I'm okay if I get one of the 'fast' trains - they tend to have a buffet car, with half decent snacks and coffee. However if it's the older trains which stop everywhere, then there's nothing available..
So 50 minute journey with drink or 1.5hr without it ...

 

[Bletchleyite]

You know the "older" trains are actually quite a bit newer?

 

[gallafent]

I asked the First Class host on GWR a couple few weeks ago and was told that on the new IEP trains Standard Class passengers can still order hot food (bacon rolls etc.). Passenger asks trolley person. They phone First Class host with order and seat number and host cooks it in kitchen and delivers to seat. This doesn’t seem to be advertised and I haven’t had a chance to try it yet.

Yup. I've never heard it advertised either but remember its being promised before the IETs' introduction. Some kind of menu would be useful too, ideally one which I can look at before the trolley person actually arrives. The onboard WiFi welcome page might be an ideal place for a link to that menu these days (to avoid loads of card menus having to be left all over the place. Oh for a return of the “tariff” stainless steel clips at the tables — only just remembered those, and couldn't find an image, so could just be my imagination … and that would also allow the menu to be “live” with what is actually available too, rather than just an aspiration!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Putting menu cards at each seat would be an excellent idea. They could even do something useful like DB style "Ihr Reiseplan" leaflets containing the train's timing and connections as well.

 

[BanburyBlue]

I always prefer a proper buffet because of 1, variety, choice and quality, and 2, you can get it when you want it.

One of my regular journeys is Banbury to Derby and return. On the return leg, you normally get the 'trolley service is now closed for stock check ready for a staff handover at Birmingham' just as the train pulls out of Derby, with the trolley normally reappearing somewhere between Leamington Spa and Banbury!

If the train is busy, you normally have to go and find the trolley anyway, and you do get the occasional lazy (I assume) catering manager who makes the 'come and find me' announcement even when the train isn't busy.

When Arriva took over XC from Virgin, I was particularly annoyed with the 'we're introducing trolleys because that's what our customers asked for'. Well they never asked me! I did write to Arriva and ask them the source of this statement and the evidence of who they asked - I never got a reply.

 

[DarloRich]

What do we want from a buffet? A brew and a kit kat? I think they can be provided by a trolley. If I want a butty I am going to get one fro m Greggs or Tesco before travel and not be rinsed for doing so. Same with tea or coffee. At the weekend i take my thermos mug from home. I think some posters need to acknowledge that the world has changed and the food people want on a train, if they want any, is snackable rather than formal.

I usually travel alone. I don't want to risk losing my seat or bags being stolen, so it's trolley for me.

No one is going to pinch your bag!

When Arriva took over XC from Virgin, I was particularly annoyed with the 'we're introducing trolleys because that's what our customers asked for'. Well they never asked me! I did write to Arriva and ask them the source of this statement and the evidence of who they asked - I never got a reply.

I filled in an online survey at the time. The problem is that the questions are designed to deliver the answer the promoter wants. Of course people want a selection of foods brought to their seat.

Maybe its just a deranged romanticism of a different era, but there's something special about it.

that is exactly what it is. a nice time certainly but not the world we live in today.

 

[Geoff DC]

Living in Penzance most journeys are a minimum of 5hrs so a buffet every time, the trolley just doesn’t cut it.

If I have to use XC, I travel as far as I can on GWR (or have done prior to the IETs) often changing at Newton Abbott for an XC HST connection. If using XC I always prepare a travel bag of food & wine as there is no buffet – I guess from now on I’ll do the same with GWR unless I know I’m getting an HST.

However the refurbished Bar/Café/Buffet on the Night Riviera sleeper is superb, great design & fitting out, an example of how things could be if rail was more customer focused

 

[kristiang85]

In Europe, where buffet cars are a social area and quite pleasant, and my seat is allocated so nobody will take it, I far prefer that.

But on British trains the buffet cars are pokey, crowded and for all the reasons stated above, usually impractical to get to for many. So trolley for me, although this means that drinks are not refrigerated, so I tend to pass and just take my own.

 

[rs101]

You know the "older" trains are actually quite a bit newer?

They certainly don't look it.. and lack luxuries like power sockets, tables, decent number of toilets, etc...

 

[DarloRich]

However the refurbished Bar/Café/Buffet on the Night Riviera sleeper is superb, great design & fitting out, an example of how things could be if rail was more customer focused

The sleeper is a very different world. The pressure on space isnt the same as a day time intercity service. I don't think it is a fair comparison.

 

[Geoff DC]

The sleeper is a very different world. The pressure on space isnt the same as a day time intercity service. I don't think it is a fair comparison.

However the 2 serving areas, one for premium fare payers and one for standard could be applied if you had a train make up similar to an HST and refurbished the buffet car K (or provided similar) - obviously more for the long distance services over4 hrs rather than short hops like Bristol/London

 

[DarloRich]

However the 2 serving areas, one for premium fare payers and one for standard could be applied if you had a train make up similar to an HST and refurbished the buffet car K (or provided similar) - obviously more for the long distance services over4 hrs rather than short hops like Bristol/London

ok - but on a normal train it eats up a great deal of space. Which is worth more to passengers and the TOC? Butties/brews or bums on seats?

 

[Bletchleyite]

No one is going to pinch your bag!

People do steal laptop bags (though theft of large luggage is rare). It is very ill advised to leave a laptop bag unattended on a train even for a short time, and in many companies would be considered a very serious disciplinary offence, as if it was stolen not only have you lost a grand's worth of laptop, but potentially you also have a GDPR breach on your hands or leaks of other commercially sensitive information.

 

[westv]

Trolley?Buffet car?
No, a dining car where I am greeted by a by a pleasant rail employee asking me if I wish to dine this evening before passing me the menu.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

In Europe, where buffet cars are a social area and quite pleasant, and my seat is allocated so nobody will take it, I far prefer that.

But on British trains the buffet cars are pokey, crowded and for all the reasons stated above, usually impractical to get to for many. So trolley for me, although this means that drinks are not refrigerated, so I tend to pass and just take my own.

This, a thousand times over...

But with the addition that buffets and trollies in Europe don't seem as extortionate (there's still a mark up, but not one which extracts the urine). Even now the Euro is almost 1:1 with sterling.

Then again, any form of catering at all would be welcome on French sleeper services! A 12 hour journey and there's not even a paper thimble of Nescafe available!