Class 710 LO

[HLE]

They’re going to WMT alright but like everything else on the railway it’s a question of when not if. The delayed introduction of the 710’s is causing 2 cascades to be delayed.

Why bombardier/WMT have kept a unit sitting in a depot doing sod all for the last few months is competely baffling. Get it in service on the goblin or send it up these parts and let’s get the training underway. It doesn’t take 4 months for a bog and new seat covers to be fitted if that’s what they’re up to (that was the from the same Tyseley rumour). Whether it’s happening is anyone’s guess.

Edit: unless they’re fitting it with a gangway cab in line so it can work in multiple with the current 172’s. Or guards panels.....as WMT aren’t DOO....yet.

 

[XCTurbostar]

Or guards panels.....as WMT aren’t DOO....yet.

The 172/0s were built without DOO and retro fitted. They retain theyre guard panels at doors and in cabs.

 

[Goldfish62]

November was the last claim. Has it been put back to the end of the year?

From what I hear November for the first train is looking increasingly unlikely. There are still "major software problems with no imminent solution".

 

[theblackwatch]

From what I hear November for the first train is looking increasingly unlikely. There are still "major software problems with no imminent solution".

Thanks. From the sound of it, the end of the year might be unlikely too.

 

[Goldfish62]

Thanks. From the sound of it, the end of the year might be unlikely too.

I wouldn't be at all surprised. It will start having an impact on the introduction of all those other Aventras that TOCs have ordered.

 

[greatkingrat]

There is a path tonight Willesden - Liverpool Street - Enfield Town and return which if it runs will be the first 710 trip on the West Anglia lines.

 

[Class 170101]

There is a path tonight Willesden - Liverpool Street - Enfield Town and return which if it runs will be the first 710 trip on the West Anglia lines.

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/K91549/2018/10/26/advanced
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/K91550/2018/10/26/advanced
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/K91551/2018/10/27/advanced
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/K91552/2018/10/27/advanced

Looks like its going for a trip to Enfield Town this evening at the following times.

 

[iphone76]

I wonder if the 710s are cleared for Bishopsgate's Tunnel? I ask as the 345s are currently not.

 

[samuelmorris]

Could that be a factor of the 345's longer vehicle length though? I don't think anything else with longer than 20m vehicles goes down there these days does it? No need to have the 345s cleared for it so they probably wouldn't have bothered, doesn't necessarily mean it's a big problem.

 

[iphone76]

That is true. From the platform allocation at Liverpool Street it could enter via the mains or the suburban. Unfortunately, I am not working tonight so won't be able to see it in action.

 

[samuelmorris]

If it is that though, it'd be a non-issue for 710s as they're standard 20m vehicles

 

[Wivenswold]

If it is an issue it will need to be rectified PDQ as the 720s have 23m cars.

 

[samuelmorris]

This is true, but it may be done as part of Anglia's commissioning process rather than ARL, who would have no reason to do it. The first 720s aren't now due in service until almost a year's time and I suspect that too may be late based on the current progress with 710s.

 

[slick]

Could that be a factor of the 345's longer vehicle length though? I don't think anything else with longer than 20m vehicles goes down there these days does it? No need to have the 345s cleared for it so they probably wouldn't have bothered, doesn't necessarily mean it's a big problem.

Class 90s with Mk3 vehicles go down there all the time, they are 23m so must be another reason.

 

[Malcolmffc]

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/K91549/2018/10/26/advanced
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/K91550/2018/10/26/advanced
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/K91551/2018/10/27/advanced
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/K91552/2018/10/27/advanced

Looks like its going for a trip to Enfield Town this evening at the following times.

All those workings appear to have been cancelled.

 

[Class 170101]

I wonder if the 710s are cleared for Bishopsgate's Tunnel? I ask as the 345s are currently not.

Class 90s with Mk3 vehicles go down there all the time, they are 23m so must be another reason.

Class 170s are also 23 metres and went this way on occasion.

I'm wondering, aren't the Class 710 units 23 or 24 metre vehicles? I seem to recall the Mark IIIs weren't permitted via Seven Sisters during the Ipswich Tunnel Blockade and they are 23m as well.

 

[samuelmorris]

20m vehicles I believe, otherwise they'd have issues with being too long in 8-car formation on the West Anglia routes, and probably in 5-car guise on the NLL too.

 

[BlyRF]

Just been reading a few twitter feeds from the Goblin user group and it's been reported the 710s are still having software issues along with some new ones and reports of testing coming to a standstill all of a sudden for a week or two.

https://twitter.com/ridingthegoblin?lang=en&lang=en

At this rate we won't see this train in service till as far as February

 

[Kite159]

Just been reading a few twitter feeds from the Goblin user group and it's been reported the 710s are still having software issues along with some new ones and reports of testing coming to a standstill all of a sudden for a week or two.

https://twitter.com/ridingthegoblin?lang=en&lang=en

At this rate we won't see this train in service till as far as February

Most likely all the 717s will be in service before the first 710 operates a passenger service.

 

[BlyRF]

Most likely all the 717s will be in service before the first 710 operates a passenger service.

That I can deffo agree with.

The Siemens Desiro series seems to be well solidly built with fantastic acceleration and ride quality and minimal issues, I'm surprised TFL (and some other TOCs) decided to mass order Aventuras knowing early on these have massive software issues that still not rectified.

Bombardier should be embarrassed for their massive marketing on this series and now we hearing about a high speed bi mode version being developed too. Sorry but you all can see why I'm venting.

 

[samuelmorris]

The 710s were ordered well before the issues with the Aventra platform were known (though arguably, as a new product platform, they should have been anticipated). The most recent orders may have had some inkling, but the product was probably chosen as part of the franchise bids, before any delay to the first Aventras was of much concern. Software has certainly not been trouble-free on the Desiro City units either. They have had a full year's headstart on the Aventra and are still posting generally poor reliability figures, though admittedly better than the 345s. The 710s seem particularly problematic, but at the moment there isn't much to place the Bombardier units as inferior to the Desiro City, it's too early to say.

 

[87015]

Just been reading a few twitter feeds from the Goblin user group and it's been reported the 710s are still having software issues along with some new ones and reports of testing coming to a standstill all of a sudden for a week or two.

https://twitter.com/ridingthegoblin?lang=en&lang=en

At this rate we won't see this train in service till as far as February

Wouldn’t read much into their conjecture and guesswork. They’ve been screaming blue murder about all the 172s being off lease at end of October, that didn’t happen. Not every part of testing needs trains rolling up the WCML.

 

[HLE]

I’d be pretty annoyed if I couldn’t get on a train when one of the units they had to put on an extra service in the peaks has been sat around for months in a depot.

What a mess. Should have kept with the desiro style of train. Tried and tested in the UK.

 

[superkev]

I wonder who does Bombardias software. In house or outsourced.
Not something you can change suppliers like other things as a change would probably mean a start from scratch.
K

 

[Mordac]

One does wonder why quality assurance is so bad for software on trains (as @samuelmorris mentioned, the Desiro Cities certainly weren't immune from this in the early days either), especially compared with what can be achieved by aeroplane manufacturers.

 

[samuelmorris]

I'm assuming because, apart from meticulous attention to detail in the aerospace industry, there's far less of a systems integration issue. Apart from some fairly standardised radio communication, the systems inside the aircraft are inside the aircraft. With the railways the train has to integrate with the network infrastructure, often all built to various different standards and generally a bit of a mess, more difficult to test with. I am somewhat sympathetic to these issues, but there comes a point when a particular product does start looking like a bit of a disaster compared to its contemporaries. We aren't quite at that stage yet with the Aventras, but it's certainly heading in that direction.

 

[td97]

The 710s were ordered well before the issues with the Aventra platform were known (though arguably, as a new product platform, they should have been anticipated). The most recent orders may have had some inkling, but the product was probably chosen as part of the franchise bids, before any delay to the first Aventras was of much concern. Software has certainly not been trouble-free on the Desiro City units either. They have had a full year's headstart on the Aventra and are still posting generally poor reliability figures, though admittedly better than the 345s. The 710s seem particularly problematic, but at the moment there isn't much to place the Bombardier units as inferior to the Desiro City, it's too early to say.

The Northern CAF Class 331 will be the baseline to compare against as it's also a completely new product to the UK. Testing seems to be more promising than this 710 farce too.
Contracts were announced on
Northern 331: January 22 2016
LO 710: June 19 2015
Meaning CAF have had 7 months fewer, but 331s are still meant to start in service next month.

 

[HLE]

3 years + from order to entry into service? That’s embarrassing!

 

[td97]

3 years + from order to entry into service? That’s embarrassing!

Yep
https://www.bombardier.com/en/media...olling-stock-and-maintenan.bombardiercom.html

Bombardier Signs Major Rolling Stock and Maintenance Contracts for Transport for London’s LOTRAIN Project

July 3, 2015
Berlin Transportation,
Press Release

• Bombardier to deliver 180 new vehicles to Transport for London
• New 20-metre BOMBARDIER AVENTRA platform will increase passenger capacity and reduce travel time on key London Overground routes

 

[samuelmorris]

3 years + from order to entry into service? That’s embarrassing!

Closer to 4 years. June 2018 has long been and gone.