GWR Class 800

[FGW_DID]

Sure it may not be planned (though some certainly are), it may not be deliberate (again, though some certainly are)

If it was ‘planned & deliberate’ then they would be diagrammed for a 5 car, they aren’t, they are diagrammed for 9/10 cars hence the ‘shortforming’. You could probably stretch at a push ‘planned & deliberate’ to include control choosing the actual diagram to short form but as alluded to sometimes they don’t get a choice, especially if it’s a last minute failure.

Wow - I don't think I've come across this sort of desperate message in that a service should not be shortformed. Sounds like a 5-car IET on the 12:03 from Paddington to Penzance is nearly a case of a police assistance waiting to happen!

Not really, it’s more a reminder that if a shortformed formation is necessary then it’s a case of trying to share the pain around.

 

[jayah]

Just been on a ride on this recently to Reading from Paddington and the speed/acceleration under electric power is deffo superb reaching 125mph by 5 mins or so, but the ride quality feels somewhat unstable at the speed as if it's gonna tip over at each slight curve or bend.

The HST ride back felt more solid perhaps due to the heavy steel body build and that massive powerhouse power car, but still bounced about abit as if the suspension is "drunk" or having an overdose. lol

Then again its not that often I catch a ride on GWR services. Then again I found the phone charging a bit disappointing as it struggled to gain another percentage along with ESD interference affecting my touch screen sensitivity till I had to remove the charger.

Is it fair to say the 800 series is as bad as Heihachi's old CRT TVs?

It is not just me that suffers total loss of touch screen functions when charging then!

 

[Bletchleyite]

It is not just me that suffers total loss of touch screen functions when charging then!

My iPad does that anyway, whatever charger I use.

 

[jayah]

I have never said that there are not short forms out there, have I?

But whether you like the meanings of plain old English words or not (apparently not), occasional, random short-forming – the thing that is actually happening on GWR, affecting different services on different days and at different times - is not routine, regular, frequent, planned, deliberate, systematic or any other word you or anyone else cares to pick.

On Monday, presumably one of the days you are referring to, GWR rolling stock was all over the place at the start of the day after the major disruption caused by the overhead wire fault in West London on Sunday, but don't let that get in the way of having a rant, will you?

And at least a train of some sort is operating in those cases on GWR - I don't recommend trying to catch a train in some parts of Wales at the moment - see https://www.journeycheck.com/tfwrail/ - rather a lot of let-down passengers there.



Oh deary me, what do we find when we look at the saintly Virgin's Journeycheck page right now



A five vice 10 Class 221 formation was also in use on some Chester route services earlier in the day. I expect most of the passengers to and from Chester and the North Wales Coast were perfectly happy to use what was provided, rather than have to wait another hour for the next service.

If Virgin trains can deliver 100% of the train 98% of the time on London to Liverpool, I don't accept this is an unreasonable benchmark for anyone else.

Have you any statistics on the relative prevalence of such short formations across both companies, before tarring everyone with the same brush?

 

[jayah]

My iPad does that anyway, whatever charger I use.

My Android is happy being charged anywhere except from the socket on an IET.

 

[404250]

Are the darker seat covers with diamonds a lot newer? There seems to be more padding in them. I've sat in the pale grey seats and felt the seat frame through the minimal padding but these seem better. Or maybe they'll wear out quickly as well?

 

[FGW_DID]

If Virgin trains can deliver 100% of the train 98% of the time on London to Liverpool, I don't accept this is an unreasonable benchmark for anyone else

It’s not an unreasonable benchmark per se but how can you compare a TOC that has two entire fleets (Pendolonos / Voyagers) that has been in service for quite a few years to a TOC with a fleet that’s not even been fully delivered from the manufacturer?

 

[Sean Emmett]

800 028 + 800 029 on today's delayed 15.00 PAD BRI ran RDG SWI 23m 00s start to stop, beating fastest HST run in the RPS archive by 6 seconds.

Up to 124 on electric just after Pangbourne. Still doing 120 thro Didcot on diesel and 118 under power at Causeway LC. Coasted down to 115 then powered back up on AC to reach 124 again by Wantage Road.

Train was 12 late leaving Reading and 7.5 late arriving at Temple Meads. Would have been only 5 late, but held outside Temple Meads for freightliner.

They don't have them on the Shinkansen

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

It’s not an unreasonable benchmark per se but how can you compare a TOC that has two entire fleets (Pendolonos / Voyagers) that has been in service for quite a few years to a TOC with a fleet that’s not even been fully delivered from the manufacturer?

Added to which the 390s had a very fraught early life, with many train faults and a difficult acceptance period; the 221s not so much.
Also there was not the same pressure to retire the Mk2/3 sets/locos, most of which went into store (some Mk3s to the GEML).

 

[gallafent]

It is not just me that suffers total loss of touch screen functions when charging then!

… me too! iPhone is close to unusable when charging on an IET, the touch screen is very jumpy and unresponsive / over-responsive. Seems to be fine to use it while plugged in on a Chiltern 168 (or indeed a refurbed GWR 165!) … ho hum!

 

[jayah]

Added to which the 390s had a very fraught early life, with many train faults and a difficult acceptance period; the 221s not so much.
Also there was not the same pressure to retire the Mk2/3 sets/locos, most of which went into store (some Mk3s to the GEML).

There doesn't seem to be the same pressure now, given we are two months from what was to be the new era but with only around half the actually HSTs gone.

However judging by the required availability figures posted, they are consistently 1-2 HSTs ahead of themselves to give any sort of margin or stable footing and have been for a long time.

 

[jayah]

800 028 + 800 029 on today's delayed 15.00 PAD BRI ran RDG SWI 23m 00s start to stop, beating fastest HST run in the RPS archive by 6 seconds.

Up to 124 on electric just after Pangbourne. Still doing 120 thro Didcot on diesel and 118 under power at Causeway LC. Coasted down to 115 then powered back up on AC to reach 124 again by Wantage Road.

Train was 12 late leaving Reading and 7.5 late arriving at Temple Meads. Would have been only 5 late, but held outside Temple Meads for freightliner.

They don't have them on the Shinkansen

London Reading in 23 then Reading to Swindon in 23. This sounds like a new benchmark.

I will still maintain that you could close most of the HST to AC gap with a high performance DMU that isn't being deliberately throttled but this is still impressive.

Are there many non stop runs to Reading in 180s to compare to this?

 

[Mordac]

London Reading in 23 then Reading to Swindon in 23. This sounds like a new benchmark.

I will still maintain that you could close most of the HST to AC gap with a high performance DMU that isn't being deliberately throttled but this is still impressive.

Are there many non stop runs to Reading in 180s to compare to this?

I would love to see what a Voyager would be able to do if they removed its speed limiters.

 

[404250]

Good performance on electric. It's a shame 40yrs hasn't improved it further though. Bristol Paddington will have an insignificant reduction in journey time.

 

[Nippy]

It is a completely different railway now though to the ones the HSTs were introduced to. We must be running more than double what the Western were for pretty much the whole day from 06:00 to 20:30. Add into that, defensive driving and ATP to name a few things and you aren't going to get the increases in journey time that HST bought us. You may get a few minutes here and there. It will be interesting to see how the extra Bristols that run non stop to Parkway (I think?) will do, but getting a clear run through Reading is a challenge. By and large, once the 800s settle down they will do the job. Imagine if these forums had been around in the 1970s when the Westerns were being displaced and then the other locos......

 

[jimm]

You carry on playing with your dictionary. In the real world, short forming is a daily occurrence - most people would describe that as "regular". One 5-vice-10 out today according to journeycheck, in case you are wondering.

I'm not sure what the relevance of Virgin or TfW is - other than you trying to deflect from the issue(s) at hand. We're talking about GWR. It is rather interesting, too, to read Clarence Yard's rather more informed commentary as to what is happening, rather then your repeated standard corporate PR messages - who are you really, Karen Boswell or Mark Hopwood (if so, we've finally found him!)?

I'm sure you will carry on huffing and puffing.

Is that the best you can do? Even if there are short forms 'daily' - how are these regular if they are on a South Wales train or trains one day, Bristols the next and Penzance on another? Please enlighten us.

I was well aware there was one short form this morning, the 09.29 Swansea-Paddington to be precise, but that was it - so unless the GWR secrecy police suppressed any further Journeycheck mentions for the rest of the day, it appears the set was swapped out of the diagram or another five-car was added at Paddington.

And your standards are slipping in the search for catastrophic, epidemic-level failings in IET operations, as the 06.09 from Newbury was cancelled due to fault on the set. The diagram was then picked up by a five-car IET at Paddington, with a 30-minute late departure of the 07.22 to Oxford, which I saw heading into the sidings there shortly before 9am.

In case you hadn't noticed, jayah was the one who brought Virgin Trains into this, so I was simply pointing out that the said TOC, which has been coupling up five-car trains to make a 10-car formation for a lot longer than GWR, was not immune from turning out a short-formed 221 service on occasion either - but for some reason you don't seem to want get in a lather about that. Why not? Oh, because it's not GWR, so that's all right then...

And perhaps because of the belief you and others posting here seem to have that somehow the IET fleet is supposed to be delivering flawless performance - unlike just about any other type of train ever built - see above for a description of the 390s' early days in traffic. I must have missed the clause in the technical specification requiring 100 percent availability of every 80x set in traffic, seven days a week...

I do sometimes wonder why Clarence Yard, FGW_DID, Nippy and others even bother to try to provide informed insight from within GWR given the response they sometimes get and the kind of attitudes about 80xs displayed for so many years in this thread and other threads, such as this gem on the previous page

Sure it (short-forming, my add for clarity) may not be planned (though some certainly are), it may not be deliberate (again, though some certainly are) ...

Ah yes, those secret GWR policies to ruin their own services being deployed again...

And when northernbelle posted this on Tuesday

I am on the 1203 Paddington to Penzance right now. It has 5 coaches vice 10.

Everybody is seated and catering is being provided in both classes. No seat reservations or Pullman available though.

I'm not suggesting this for the 1203 PNZ, but there are plenty of headcodes on the Bristol and South Wales route where a 5 car is appropriate.

his words were totally twisted yesterday by jayah, who claimed what had been said was

We were told here the other day that "headcode" was suitable for a downgrade as it ran with empty seats earlier in the week.

PS: I am not Mark Hopwood, or Karen Boswell, come to that. I have no idea what GWR's corporate PR messages are and couldn't care less what they might be.

 

[CMRail]

Do people fail to understand the facts here? It’s not particularly that difficult. As I mentioned earlier, IETs are providing 20% more reliablty than the HSTs. That means that they are more suitable for operation. Does anyone who sits at home all day staring at Journey Check atcually use these regularly? People on here who use these a couple of times a week know that they are not as bad as suggested from certain individuals. I don’t care about your one journey from Reading to Didcot, because you have evaluated one journey. They are cleaner and more helpful on my line and of course the North Cots when it comes to platform lengths. All I want is a seat, a comfortable train environment and no hassle. I don’t care if the HST beat IET performance by half a second, your points are useless. The trains are keeping to the HST schedule well so what is the issue? If anything HSTs are not keeping to their own schedules; dare I mention it.

Why have people got the urge to spend their days typing their IET experience, they have been in service nearly 13 months and most people on here have an experience. Not once have I been on an 800 where it has had a fault other than no hot water. I doubt anyone cares about your thoughts on the train and the seats have been mentioned so much it hurts my eyes (and ears) if someone mentions them. What if I feel trapped in on anHST? Am I not allowed to mention it?

 

[404250]

Why don't you just let people complain about the short forms and not try to knock them down? It's a valid complaint and is a significant problem for anyone regularly using the service.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I would love to see what a Voyager would be able to do if they removed its speed limiters.

When first built they used to accelerate like a 737 taking off - a proper kick back in your seat. Unfortunately they were modified in some way (or drivers were instructed to change their driving style, one or the other) to prevent this happening.

 

[59CosG95]

When first built they used to accelerate like a 737 taking off - a proper kick back in your seat. Unfortunately they were modified in some way (or drivers were instructed to change their driving style, one or the other) to prevent this happening.

They were indeed modified - all the engines on every unit were derated from 750hp to 700hp - mainly due to their insatiable appetite for diesel.

 

[CMRail]

Why don't you just let people complain about the short forms and not try to knock them down? It's a valid complaint and is a significant problem for anyone regularly using the service.

Because it’s not OTT when every single day people point out short forms? We get it, there’s a short form. There is a website called JourneyCheck and you don’t need to repeat what it says? It’s like me saying that the seats are hard, it’s something over mentioned.

 

[jimm]

Why don't you just let people complain about the short forms and not try to knock them down? It's a valid complaint and is a significant problem for anyone regularly using the service.

I've been using IETs since their first week in service - sum total of short-formed IETs I have ridden on in that time is one, comfortably outweighed by the number of short-formed HSTs I have used.

Some of those complaining here have informed us that they couldn't care less about the short-forming that has gone on for years elsewhere on GWR/FGW - or when it happens at other TOCs.

In essence, it's just the latest variation of long-running 'lets knock anything to do with 80x trains' posting on this forum. I expect another newly-discovered catastrophic failing will be coming along shortly...

 

[404250]

I disagree. It was a mistake to order 5 car trains in the first place. Why not just order 9 cars that are much less staff heavy and use other trains for routes that don't require 9? Short forms are a massive problem. HS1 is an example of better planning.

 

[FGW_DID]

I disagree. It was a mistake to order 5 car trains in the first place. Why not just order 9 cars that are much less staff heavy and use other trains for routes that don't require 9? Short forms are a massive problem. HS1 is an example of better planning.

The how’s and the whys have been covered many many times on this thread and others like it. What other trains do you suggest are used to cover the routes that ‘don’t require 9’.

As to short formations, yes it’s an ‘issue’ especially for those actually travelling on a shortformed service if it’s full & standing, but the reasons why there are shortforms have been done to death. Have you read through the thread?

 

[Geoff DC]

If you live in Bristol you should think yourselves lucky to have an IET vice 150 for a journey under 2 hrs. A similar Journey in Cornwall - say Penzance to Plymouth would be/is usually a 150

So people in Cornwall complaining about the downgrading of services from HST to IET is of a completely different order to Bristolians complaining about an upgrading of a commuter service to London

 

[404250]

Yes I have read some the thread. My point was that if fewer 5 car trains had been ordered in the 1st place we wouldn't have this problem with half size trains and standing passengers. I have been on them many times and 5 trains are common. In % terms small but any regular user would notice the problem.

 

[FGW_DID]

Your right, there wouldn’t be a problem with standing passengers, there would be no train for them to stand in!

That’s the reason for the majority of the shortforms, a 10 car being split into the two parts to cover all diagrams and therefore not having any cancellations!

For the umpteenth time, not all the units have been delivered into service. If Hitachi are not providing the required number of sets daily something has to give. Not ideal but several half length trains covering all the services are certainly better than cancelling services for not having enough full length trains.

 

[404250]

That's fine, and working ok for the transition period. Long term, what's the reason for having so many 5 car trains?

 

[samuelmorris]

I'm sure you will carry on huffing and puffing.

Is that the best you can do? Even if there are short forms 'daily' - how are these regular if they are on a South Wales train or trains one day, Bristols the next and Penzance on another? Please enlighten us.

This really is just a conflicting understanding of terminology. For better or for worse people don't always use these words exactly as per their dictionary definitions. Regular, Routine, common, whatever word you want to use, the short forms (real ones, i.e. 5 vs 9/10) do seem to happen daily, which is too often. That doesn't mean they happen to a particular pattern, or always in similar amounts, but they do happen often, too often - anybody that's offered real numbers has agreed with that, which in my opinion renders any of the words above, a suitable description for casual conversation. Disagreeing with that I feel is a matter of semantics and nothing more.

I don't really think the number of 5-car units ordered is wrong, it's simply an inadequacy with how quickly the units entered service and how available they are.

 

[Siemens Staines]

It also means massive congestion on the country end footbridge to/from the H & C.

Most folk on here will be looking at National Rail, RTT, OTT, Traksy, Tiger etc to get advance gen on the platform number, but they aren't always accurate. Meanwhile Jo public gears up for the stampede.

RPS colleague reports 07.30 PAD PNZ is 2x800 today, 30 mins late at Plymouth.

The 0730 Paddington - Penzance was 802101 when it left Paddington but I suspect the 2x800/0 off the preceding 0700 Paddington - Bristol may have worked it forward because the 0930 Bristol - Paddington was cancelled due to a problem with the traction equipment.