What sort of computer system do Signallers use?

[pt_mad]

Although the signalling system appears to look like the CCF system, what sort of signalling system do the ROCs use? Is it based on CCF type systems? Considering I'd imagined them to have a big panel full of coloured buttons with a red button for some of the signals, it looks like it's pretty much controlled from a keyboard and mouse? I guess that's probably the most comprehensive and adequate way of controlling large areas?


Not my image.

 

[Highlandspring]

Very briefly, signallers in workstation/VDU based signalling centres interact with the interlockings through three main proprietary control systems -
WestCad by Siemens Rail Automation
MCS by GE Transportation Systems
IECC/Scaleable IECC by Resonate (formerly DeltaRail)

You’ll find more information if you google those terms. The picture above shows an MCS workstation, the giveaways are the mouse incorporating a large trackerball (WestCad/Scaleable IECC uses a conventional mouse and IECC uses a trackerball built into the desk) and the grey menu bar at the bottom of each of the screen views.

There are plenty of signalboxes which do control signals using physical buttons on panels of various types but the whole subject is very complex. CCF isn’t a control system and is due for replacement next year.

 

[edwin_m]

I was involved with developing and introducing the original IECCs from the late 80s and early 90s, and at the time they ran on Motorola 68xxx boards with a custom real-time operating system. Video boards were custom-made with a hardware changeover to ensure that if the standby system took over there was virtually no interruption to the picture (which was displayed on what were probably the largest CRT monitors available, which I can vouch for being extremely heavy). I haven't been involved for many years but I imagine it has now been ported onto something totally different and probably more PC-based.

Today there are several suppliers of such equipment - Resonate produces the current version of IECC and I believe the signalling majors all have their own kit as well - see post just arrived above! I believe the human interface (screen colours, method of operation etc) are defined by a NR standard so all similar to use. You click on a signal and then on the next signal to set a route between them, there is a separate button for cancelling routes, and the keyboard is for things like train describer updates but also allows all mouse/trackerball functions to be carried out if that hardware fails.

 

[superkev]

Interesting. Thinking of the Ukraine's power system being hacked, was it last year, is any of the signalling system linked into the internet (Not a good idea me thinks)
K

 

[takno]

Interesting. Thinking of the Ukraine's power system being hacked, was it last year, is any of the signalling system linked into the internet (Not a good idea me thinks)
K

It's all ultimately networked into Network Rail's systems, and they are ultimately connected to the internet. At both points there are tight controls to make sure you can't just hack in. Air-gapping systems is one approach to security, but it cuts off way too much in the way of information coming out, and it doesn't guarantee that no viruses can get in - sooner or later you are going to have to install updates on the system, and they can come with viruses attached whether they are delivered over the internet or by somebody inserting a disk.

 

[causton]

For the one in the photo, have you downloaded SimSig? Obviously it isn't exactly like the real thing but you can play a demo for a few minutes for free (or pay for a panel you like!) and it gives you a relatively good feel in the comfort of your own home.

 

[pt_mad]

Very briefly, signallers in workstation/VDU based signalling centres interact with the interlockings through three main proprietary control systems -
WestCad by Siemens Rail Automation
MCS by GE Transportation Systems
IECC/Scaleable IECC by Resonate (formerly DeltaRail)

You’ll find more information if you google those terms. The picture above shows an MCS workstation, the giveaways are the mouse incorporating a large trackerball (WestCad/Scaleable IECC uses a conventional mouse and IECC uses a trackerball built into the desk) and the grey menu bar at the bottom of each of the screen views.

There are plenty of signalboxes which do control signals using physical buttons on panels of various types but the whole subject is very complex. CCF isn’t a control system and is due for replacement next year.

Very interesting. Do most of the ROC signalling centres use MCS systems?

Does it take just a matter or like 2 seconds to put a block on if an emergency call is received? E.g. use roller ball, quickly select signal and press one button? That sort of thing? What if you need to block a set of four running lines? Would you have block them seperatly or is there a way a whole station can be selected and blocked in one click?

Just imagioning some of the calls they must receive that require immediate action and how long the actual block would take, e.g. 10 seconds, 20, more, less and how many clicks.

 

[Malcolmffc]

Very interesting. Do most of the ROC signalling centres use MCS systems?

Does it take just a matter or like 2 seconds to put a block on if an emergency call is received? E.g. use roller ball, quickly select signal and press one button? That sort of thing? What if you need to block a set of four running lines? Would you have block them seperatly or is there a way a whole station can be selected and blocked in one click?

Just imagioning some of the calls they must receive that require immediate action and how long the actual block would take, e.g. 10 seconds, 20, more, less and how many clicks.

No, it varies by route. Western is entirely Resonate IECC Scalable, for example.

 

[edwin_m]

Wouldn't the first action be to send out an emergency call on GSM-R? That would stop all trains whether they have a signal in sight or not. Appropriate blocks could then be implemented before unaffected trains were authorised to re-start.

 

[JN114]

Does it take just a matter or like 2 seconds to put a block on if an emergency call is received? E.g. use roller ball, quickly select signal and press one button? That sort of thing? What if you need to block a set of four running lines? Would you have block them seperatly or is there a way a whole station can be selected and blocked in one click?

Just imagioning some of the calls they must receive that require immediate action and how long the actual block would take, e.g. 10 seconds, 20, more, less and how many clicks.

If a GSM-R Emergency Call is made (a REC) then all trains in the same radio cell, all trains in adjoining radio cells, the controlling signaller(s), the controlling ECRO(s) and the relevant route control office will ALL receive the call. Trains will receive hear an “Emergency, Stop Train” automated message as they’re connected to the call; signallers/ECRO/route control get a siren tone on the terminal to distinguish it as a REC.

Most VDU-based signalling interfaces have “Signal Group Replacement Controls” - generally a button either on-screen or on the desk which replaces all signals to danger in a subset of their control area - for example Reading station has one for each “end” of the station. The signaller only needs click/press this button and all signals go back. But that may be overkill. The key is listening to the call and taking appropriate action.

 

[pt_mad]

.
There are plenty of signalboxes which do control signals using physical buttons on panels of various types but the whole subject is very complex. CCF isn’t a control system and is due for replacement next year.

What is planned to replace CCF? Any idea?

 

[whhistle]

CCF isn’t a control system and is due for replacement next year.

It shouldn't be!
P2 is awful compared with CCF but I can understand why they're going to replace it.

 

[DarloRich]

You should see some of the aged computer terminals in some of the boxes!

 

[Aictos]

It shouldn't be!
P2 is awful compared with CCF but I can understand why they're going to replace it.

I disagree, yes P2 has different features then CCF which of course depends on the needs of the user but it is still a very powerful system.

For example P2 has the following features:

Ability to track trains on specific maps covering the UK
Ability to look up the train consist
Ability to set it up to highlight train running information such as delays

Also remember you also have P2 Mobile otherwise known as Tornado Mobile which does much of what the desktop application does which is really helpful for front line staff such as Gateline, Dispatchers and Train Crew.

The only main issue with P2 is the fact that the maps don't get updated as regularly as they ought to be for example take the re signalling at Peterborough at few years ago, it took P2 over a year easily to be updated while Open Train Times for example actually updated their map of the same area in a fraction of the time.

Apart from that, I think P2 like TRUST is a very powerful and effective tool if used rightly!

As to both being replaced eventually, that is something I do wonder about...

 

[Tom Quinne]

I’ve been lucky enough to work all three of the IECC based computer signalling systems, here is my view on each one...

MCS: crap, clunky, slow to react, unuser friendly, poorly drawn maps to work off. Maze like menus to find features. Very poor cheap mans system.

WestCad, decent enough, does the job and does it well. Not a fan of tracked ball control but some swear by it. A little dated compared to Scaleable.

Scaleable: fantastic ! Extremely user friendly, HD screens with a continuous signalling map you can zoom in on, scroll across on, you can set up your own screens to your own preferred setting and save them for your nsxt turn.

The mouse based drop down menus are very quick to use, the drag a box feature is great for possession set ups and take offs.

The only negative is you can’t set a route signal to signal across screens, you need to use the drop down menu route setting which in a complex area you have to careful not to wrong route.

I’d go back to Scaleable like a shot !

 

[Highlandspring]

What is planned to replace CCF? Any idea?

A system called TMV, Train Movement Viewer, which is in the early stages of development just now.

 

[Aictos]

A system called TVM, Train Movement Viewer, which is in the early stages of development just now.

Is that just for these working in a control room environment or is it intended to replaced both P2 and CCF as one application vs two?

 

[Tim M]

WestCad, decent enough, does the job and does it well. Not a fan of tracked ball control but some swear by it. A little dated compared to Scaleable.

I suspect the use of trackerball comes from its use on the original IECC which predated the common, and therefore proven reliability, of the mouse. Remember that IECC dates from the 1980’s in places such as York, Liverpool Street etc. Indeed when a WestCAD was added at a later date at Liverpool Street, Tracker-ball was specified for user familiarity purposes. Where WestCAD has been used elsewhere, e.g. Oslo T-Banen, Australia, Stratford Market Depot on the Jubilee Line, and any subsequent installations, the mouse is used.

Does anyone know what was/is used at the Central Line Control Centre at White City, mouse or tracker-ball? The system itself is a bespoke development of that used on Singapore MRT.

 

[Tom Quinne]

Our MCS was installed with a desk mounted mini tracker ball and NCR buttons, but later supplemented with a mouse.

 

[edwin_m]

I believe the tracker ball was first chosen because it is firmly bolted down to the desk so can't be lost or its cable pulled out.

 

[Llanigraham]

You should see some of the aged computer terminals in some of the boxes!

Are they still running 98?

 

[FGW_DID]

We have a WestCad workstation, at Reading TCD, with Tracker Ball and big chunky buttons:

 

[Tom Quinne]

I think the last WestCad desks at TVSC went in December 2016, the idea behind Scaleable is all the kit we use can be brought down PC would I should cheaper than the specialised kit other systems use.

Regards to MCS we now have the option to unplug the steel ball and use a mouse which I much better, even if it is a crap system.

 

[Tom Quinne]

We have a WestCad workstation, at Reading TCD, with Tracker Ball and big chunky buttons:

View attachment 55332

That’s an impressive little set up there, I bet it’s manic on nights with all the ons and offs, not to mention shunting movements.

 

[JN114]

I think the last WestCad desks at TVSC went in December 2016, the idea behind Scaleable is all the kit we use can be brought down PC would I should cheaper than the specialised kit other systems use.

Regards to MCS we now have the option to unplug the steel ball and use a mouse which I much better, even if it is a crap system.

There’s no WestCAD at TVSC nor has there ever been, it’s always been IECC - first Classic then Scaleable versions 1 and 2

 

[FGW_DID]

That’s an impressive little set up there, I bet it’s manic on nights with all the ons and offs, not to mention shunting movements.

It certainly has its moments

 

[FGW_DID]

There’s no WestCAD at TVSC nor has there ever been, it’s always been IECC - first Classic then Scaleable versions 1 and 2

I thought TVSC was WestCAD at some stage because that’s why it was installed at the TCD so it matched Didcot.

 

[JN114]

I thought TVSC was WestCAD at some stage because that’s why it was installed at the TCD so it matched Didcot.

According to BPSR it’s always been variants of IECC on all workstations, which tallys with my own visits there over the years where I’ve never seen a WestCAD workstation in there.

Whether there was an intention to replace the IECC Classics with WestCAD at one stage I don’t know; but it’s all on scaleable 2 now.

EDIT: BPSR - British Power Signalling Register - https://www.s-r-s.org.uk/archivebpsr.php

 

[nom de guerre]

MCS: crap, clunky, slow to react, unuser friendly, poorly drawn maps to work off. Maze like menus to find features. Very poor cheap mans system.

I quite like it!

Can only speak for my place, but I don't find it slow to react and the maps and menus are fine.

How many menu items do you really need to use regularly, anyway? 95% of the time, mine just sit on F8!

The only complaint we have is that a couple of areas aren’t covered by the possession controls. Always good fun individually removing multiple SPAD inhibits at 4am...

 

[GusB]

I'm not a signaller, and have no experience of any of these systems first-hand, but I do enjoy dabbling with SimSig every now and again. While I realise the experience probably related as much to a real signaller's job as much as TrainSim is to a driver's, is it modelled on a particular system?