Why can't doors open at both sides at stations such as Finsbury Park?

[74A]

I was at Finsbury Park today waiting for a train to Kings Cross. Platform 4 was showing at 1257. There was a platform change to platform 2 so had to cross via the subway. However I noticed that the line had a platform face both sides. There was a platform 3 which does not seem to be used.

Is there any reason that it could not have been used. It would have saved the passengers crossing the subway. I assume thats the way its done. To difficult to change for the benefit of the passenger ?

 

[Intermodal]

Signallers will always try to do a 'cross-platform' platform change where possible. In this case, it wasn't. I am not sure of the exact reason for that as I am unfamiliar with Finsbury Park. Regardless, clearly if there was no issue the platform wouldn't have been changed to begin with.

This is one of the more ridiculous threads I have seen on here. It's fair enough if you are just enquiring as to the reason, but to propose that there is some conspiracy and that the railway is deliberately "not working for the benefit of the passengers" is ridiculously provocative - especially when the substance is that you had to use a subway - god forbid! Maybe if your train was an hour late I could begin to understand...

 

[jopsuk]

is suitable dispatch equipment provided on the platform 3 face?

 

[Spartacus]

No idea why it would have been showing 4 in the first place, it's booked into 2. Generally speaking as little uses platforms 3 & 4 as possible, maybe due to suicide risk, but that's just a guess.

 

[bramling]

I was at Finsbury Park today waiting for a train to Kings Cross. Platform 4 was showing at 1257. There was a platform change to platform 2 so had to cross via the subway. However I noticed that the line had a platform face both sides. There was a platform 3 which does not seem to be used.

Is there any reason that it could not have been used. It would have saved the passengers crossing the subway. I assume thats the way its done. To difficult to change for the benefit of the passenger ?

The dispatch process simply isn’t set up for both sides being opened.

In the case of Finsbury Park platform 3 was the main up platform until the extra island was added. Then it was changed to the other side to provide cross-platform interchange with the Moorgate service which now mainly uses platform 1.

The bigger issue is why little notice is given of any change. Same happens in the down direction too, with platform 6 unused.

 

[jon0844]

The screens will change when the train approaches so that may not give much notice. It may well be that the train is booked on the wrong platform and therefore shows incorrectly on the screens? That would be a planning error and you could contact GTR via Twitter to ask and see what they say. The head code was 1P31.

Having looked it does seem it was on the up fast and moves over just outside.

Maybe there were changes to accommodate the football specials today for Arsenal?

 

[bramling]

The screens will change when the train approaches so that may not give much notice. It may well be that the train is booked on the wrong platform and therefore shows incorrectly on the screens? That would be a planning error and you could contact GTR via Twitter to ask and see what they say. The head code was 1P31.

Having looked it does seem it was on the up fast and moves over just outside.

Maybe there were changes to accommodate the football specials today for Arsenal?

In the up direction at least, the system seems to be set up so that a platform alteration won’t be broadcast until the train has accepted the route. In reality this means that someone waiting away from the stairs on platform 2 will have a very tall order to reach platform 4 in time.

I suspect this wasn’t such an issue before as few people did the journey from Finsbury Park to Kings Cross. In all my years I’ve only done it a handful of times - and even then mainly boarding a down train on its incoming journey to save waiting twenty minutes at Finsbury Park!

 

[Metal_gee_man]

It's obviously achievable to open doors on both sides of the train as the Central line proves at Stratford for example, however if as people have said it's DOO it's impossible to do unless that can see monitors on both platforms or there is a GTR platform dispatcher on both platforms, all in all it sounds like a very good idea in theory but practice dictates otherwise

 

[jon0844]

In the up direction at least, the system seems to be set up so that a platform alteration won’t be broadcast until the train has accepted the route. In reality this means that someone waiting away for the stairs on platform 2 will have a very tall order to reach platform 4 in time.

I suspect this wasn’t such an issue before as few people did the journey from Finsbury Park to Kings Cross. In all my years I’ve only done it a handful of times - and even then mainly boarding a down train on its incoming journey to save waiting twenty minutes at Finsbury Park!

Although today has been okay, when an hourly train to KGX has been cancelled on a weekend, getting the slow and changing at FPK has become a more common event. For the most part, it's probably better staying on the Moorgate train and getting the tube from Highbury & Islington than wondering where the next King's Cross train will be - although inexperienced travellers should make sure to follow for the right exit at King's Cross when alighting!!

 

[bramling]

It's obviously achievable to open doors on both sides of the train as the Central line proves at Stratford for example, however if as people have said it's DOO it's impossible to do unless that can see monitors on both platforms or there is a GTR platform dispatcher on both platforms, all in all it sounds like a very good idea in theory but practice dictates otherwise

It happens on LU, but it’s far from ideal. The extra length of a mainline train would make it even less ideal. As you say, nice in theory, but a pain in practice.

 

[big all]

going back 25 years i used to open both sides at norwood 1/2 walk across the cab and shut 2 side within say 10 seconds then one side with staff bat displayed
then it was 20 seconds dwell time for electric and 30 seconds for deisel unless seperate arr and dep times not shure what it is now thought
used to announce passengers for london bridge alight on the rhside but please note it is not always possible to open both doors so please expect to allight on platform one and use the subway

 

[jon0844]

As you're not shutting the doors at the same time on both sides, which side gets done first? Do you follow Pit Stop (20 seconds whistle, 30 seconds close doors, 40 right away) so do one side extra early? Or risk the train leaving late? The side that gets done early now has someone arrive that is somewhat aggrieved that the doors locked considerably more than 30 seconds before. They come on here to complain!

Now I realise Finsbury Park now has the driver dispatch him/herself on all but 365s and 313s so the driver can use the bodyside cameras as needed for each side, but for those that still need manual dispatching.. how do you give CD and RA for two sides? You can't do it. So you have two members of staff at the cab window with bats? That seems sensible. Dispatcher gives first CD. Second dispatcher gives second CD. Who gives the green light? They can't see the other side? Do both dispatchers give green and the driver waits for both?

I assume LU has a procedure for its stations, but I think opening the doors both sides is a recipe for disaster and a real safety risk for no significant gain.

 

[bramling]

As you're not shutting the doors at the same time on both sides, which side gets done first? Do you follow Pit Stop (20 seconds whistle, 30 seconds close doors, 40 right away) so do one side extra early? Or risk the train leaving late? The side that gets done early now has someone arrive that is somewhat aggrieved that the doors locked considerably more than 30 seconds before. They come on here to complain!

Now I realise Finsbury Park now has the driver dispatch him/herself on all but 365s and 313s so the driver can use the bodyside cameras as needed for each side, but for those that still need manual dispatching.. how do you give CD and RA for two sides? You can't do it. So you have two members of staff at the cab window with bats? That seems sensible. Dispatcher gives first CD. Second dispatcher gives second CD. Who gives the green light? They can't see the other side? Do both dispatchers give green and the driver waits for both?

I assume LU has a procedure for its stations, but I think opening the doors both sides is a recipe for disaster and a real safety risk for no significant gain.

What should have been done at Finsbury Park was provide a flashing yellow aspect for the route from the up fast to platform 2, a move which was only used very rarely before the extra platforms arrived, but is now booked to be used three times per hour. This in itself would disincentivise the use of platform 4.

They spent money doing it at Potters Bar on the down a couple of years ago - for a crossover that now has I believe zero booked use!

 

[clagmonster]

I'm surprised that there arem't platform train interface issues at stations like this with a platform at both sides of a single line. As one platform face is never used, I would have thought there is a case for a fence to be contructed along the length of the former platform 3, to prevent a case of somebody attempting to board from the wrong side and ending up under the train.

 

[jon0844]

I'm surprised that there arem't platform train interface issues at stations like this with a platform at both sides of a single line. As one platform face is never used, I would have thought there is a case for a fence to be contructed along the length of the former platform 3, to prevent a case of somebody attempting to board from the wrong side and ending up under the train.

This has been discussed, with these points made, in another thread on here not so long ago.

When you had 317s in use, without illuminated door buttons, the other issue was that people on the train had no idea which side to get off when arriving at Finsbury Park. I wonder if anyone ever pulled the alarm because they thought the doors hadn't been released?

 

[whoosh]

As you're not shutting the doors at the same time on both sides....

Ah, but you are! The 'doors close' button on all Thameslink and GN units shuts ALL doors. Both sides.
And as you can't show 24 cameras on two screens, that places the situation firmly in the 'impossible' category, so won't ever happen.


Having said that, I seem to recall late 80s or early 90s, Northbound trains using today's platforms 6 and 7, and the platform 6 side effectively being dispatched using the station PA!

That wouldn't happen now.

 

[bramling]

I wonder if anyone ever pulled the alarm because they thought the doors hadn't been released?

Yes, saw that happen once. Wasn’t a 317 though, it was on a 365 with illuminating buttons. ISTR it was two women who had already made prats of themselves boarding as the doors were closing, then spent the entire journey babbling inane gossip to one another, and were still too engrossed in this to hear the announcement and notice that the doors had been released on the other side.

 

[clagmonster]

This has been discussed, with these points made, in another thread on here not so long ago.

When you had 317s in use, without illuminated door buttons, the other issue was that people on the train had no idea which side to get off when arriving at Finsbury Park. I wonder if anyone ever pulled the alarm because they thought the doors hadn't been released?

Apologies, I must have either missed or forgotten the previous discussion.

To counter the issue of people onboard not knowing which side to alight from, which I imagine happens even with illuminating buttons and release sounders, you could even have signs along the fence reading something along the lines of:
"Alight from the other side of the train"

 

[jon0844]

Apologies, I must have either missed or forgotten the previous discussion.

To counter the issue of people onboard not knowing which side to alight from, which I imagine happens even with illuminating buttons and release sounders, you could even have signs along the fence reading something along the lines of:
"Alight from the other side of the train"

If fencing was put up then signs like this would very much be possible and a good idea. I suppose the only reason against it would be the fencing stopping an emergency evacuation on the other side, but how likely is that?

 

[clagmonster]

I suppose there could be gates in the fence, similar to those found preventing access to fast line platforms elsewhere, but only openable from the platform side for emergency egress. I'm sure for staff access it could be possible to open it with a T key or a number 1 key from the platform4 side.

 

[whhistle]

It's fair enough if you are just enquiring as to the reason, but to propose that there is some conspiracy and that the railway is deliberately "not working for the benefit of the passengers" is ridiculously provocative...

Not sure where you got that from the OP.
It's a genuine question as to why a certain platform face can't be used

 

[jopsuk]

Not sure where you got that from the OP.
It's a genuine question as to why a certain platform face can't be used

This is the problem of changing thread titles- the original title was about the railway "not working for the benefit of passengers" rather than about dual-side opening.

 

[whhistle]

This is the problem of changing thread titles- the original title was about the railway "not working for the benefit of passengers" rather than about dual-side opening.

*like*
Thank you for the explanation.

 

[dcbwhaley]

Apologies, I must have either missed or forgotten the previous discussion.

To counter the issue of people onboard not knowing which side to alight from, which I imagine happens even with illuminating buttons and release sounders, you could even have signs along the fence reading something along the lines of:
"Alight from the other side of the train"

Would it be possible for the sign which informs you that "Your next station stop is Stockport" to say "Your next station stop is Stockport. Alight on the right hand side"

 

[Esker-pades]

Would it be possible for the sign which informs you that "Your next station stop is Stockport" to say "Your next station stop is Stockport. Alight on the right hand side"

Platform alterations can easily change that. It works on the London Underground when trains can only use one platform (most of the time). NR platforming is much more complicated.

 

[jon0844]

Having an illuminated sign (akin to the 'DOORS NOT IN USE' one) saying that the doors are open on the other side isn't a bad idea. Maybe something for retrofitting to stock in the years to come, but probably won't happen.

 

[Dr_Intoxicated]

If fencing was put up then signs like this would very much be possible and a good idea. I suppose the only reason against it would be the fencing stopping an emergency evacuation on the other side, but how likely is that?

This seems to have been done at Ascot, a few years ago when I regularly traveled between Reading and Feltham one could open the doors on both sides in the UP direction at Ascot. Now they have built a fence on one of the platforms and the doors are only released on one side.

 

[Esker-pades]

This seems to have been done at Ascot, a few years ago when I regularly traveled between Reading and Feltham one could open the doors on both sides in the UP direction at Ascot. Now they have built a fence on one of the platforms and the doors are only released on one side.

I think Ascot and other 3rd rail stations are a slightly different case. I was under the impression that doors would not open on the side where the 3rd rail is because of the increased risk of death from falling down the cap (IE: being electrocuted by the 3rd rail).

 

[43096]

This seems to have been done at Ascot, a few years ago when I regularly traveled between Reading and Feltham one could open the doors on both sides in the UP direction at Ascot. Now they have built a fence on one of the platforms and the doors are only released on one side.

Doors have only been released one side at Ascot for many years - certainly way before the fence was put up (which was done when the 10-car platform extensions were done). I think it dates back to when the Junipers were introduced.

Now a question: does the "doors close" system on modern stock only close doors on the side that the panel is? I ask, because on CDL fitted slam-door stock as I understand it the "door lock" controls locks both sides.

 

[geoffk]

At Manchester Victoria, trams from the Airport which terminate there have doors opened on both sides so passengers can change on to a Bury or Rochdale-bound tram without having to walk all the way round and across the track. However, boarding the Airport tram is supposed to be from the island platform used by other inbound trams - logical really. This may happen elsewhere on light rail systems (DLR?) where the regulations are different from railways.