Any news on proposals to build an alternative route between Exeter & Plymouth?

[Railwaysceptic]

As long as the cost/benefit ratio was sensible, I'd be in favour of a new build route between Taunton and Plymouth: not for 140 mph which is unnecessary but as a 100 mph railway. Between Taunton and Bristol, I believe speeds are already quite good.

 

[Class37.4]

And why, pray tell, is it acceptable to ignore a BCR for the sake of a few speed fanatics, when its not acceptable to do so to provide decent rail links for central and North Devon ?

Not about speed fanatics but improving journey time to Plymouth and Cornwall which isn't particularly good, along with fixing the Dawlish issue.

 

[Class37.4]

As long as the cost/benefit ratio was sensible, I'd be in favour of a new build route between Taunton and Plymouth: not for 140 mph which is unnecessary but as a 100 mph railway. Between Taunton and Bristol, I believe speeds are already quite good.

No point building a new line to 100mph standard, could be argued you should build it to HS2 standards even the trains don't run at that speed initially, and certainly engineering it to the max capability of IEP would seem to make sense to me even if they only ran initially at 125mph along with Voyagers etc.

The problem with whole idea of a diversionary route is that its too wrapped with the obsession of the fanatics trying to restore a rail service to North Devon, when your looking at whole concept of a Dawlish diversion, you should be looking at what's best way to achieve that and whether you should also look at as an opportunity to improve journey time, not on trying to restore a train service to Okehampton etc. and looking at building it between Taunton and Plymouth might well have some merit.

Of course at present there isn't much likelihood of any of it happening so its a pointless argument anyway.

On a wider note with regard to railway re-openings, I think there is too much obsession with trying to reopen old routes, yes it may the most cost effective option in some cases but it shouldn't blind the fact that a new route or partial new route may be much more fit for purpose in the 21st century.

 

[The Ham]

No point building a new line to 100mph standard, could be argued you should build it to HS2 standards even the trains don't run at that speed initially, and certainly engineering it to the max capability of IEP would seem to make sense to me even if they only ran initially at 125mph along with Voyagers etc.

The problem with whole idea of a diversionary route is that its too wrapped with the obsession of the fanatics trying to restore a rail service to North Devon, when your looking at whole concept of a Dawlish diversion, you should be looking at what's best way to achieve that and whether you should also look at as an opportunity to improve journey time, not on trying to restore a train service to Okehampton etc. and looking at building it between Taunton and Plymouth might well have some merit.

Of course at present there isn't much likelihood of any of it happening so its a pointless argument anyway.

On a wider note with regard to railway re-openings, I think there is too much obsession with trying to reopen old routes, yes it may the most cost effective option in some cases but it shouldn't blind the fact that a new route or partial new route may be much more fit for purpose in the 21st century.

While I agree that HS routes are a good idea to increase capacity and have the side benefit of being able to get places faster. However you still need to deal with the following problems:

Firstly, you'd be limited to 1 fast trains per hour from London still, so for much of the time there would be very few trains on it.

Secondly, at best, you'd get journey times from London reduced by 30 minutes (so at best 2:30).

Third, to get the shortest route (and therefore the quickest) would be across a fairly inhibited area, meaning that a parkway station wouldn't have many passengers and Totnes would lose intercity services (other than those heading to Paignton).

Given the above and the extra costs (over the NR costed routes) with little benefit.

Conversely the could be scope to descope sections of the Okehampton route so that journey times weren't 60 minutes but rather at most 75 minutes (but with passive provision to increase speeds ata later date) so as to reduce costs.

As delaying diverted trains by 15 minutes probably wouldn't be too much of a problem.

As well as looking at what benefits through running using the Waterloo services would bring.

A new HS line from London to Bristol with a branch towards Exeter could be built but a stand alone line in the SW is highly unlikely.

 

[yorksrob]

Not about speed fanatics but improving journey time to Plymouth and Cornwall which isn't particularly good, along with fixing the Dawlish issue.

It would only partially fix the Dawlish issue because stations and settlements between Newton Abbott and Exeter could still be cut off.

Also, crucially, Plymouth and the West country would still be at the mercy of a long branch line west of Newton Abbott, meaning zero resilience at times of disruption, or even during scheduled engineering improvements.

The Okehampton route is also only a partial solution to the Dawlish issue in that the main line may still be disrupted between Exeter and Plymouth, however it is also about bringing a decent rail service to Okehampton, Tavistock and the rest of Devon, as well as providing additional capacity to Plymouth.

 

[Robertj21a]

I know I'll be shot down but I always think that many people decide to live in Devon or Cornwall partly because it's a bit cut off from all the rush and hassle elsewhere.
By all means sort out Dawlish properly, but does the South West really want much more ?

 

[Cowley]

I know I'll be shot down but I always think that many people decide to live in Devon or Cornwall partly because it's a bit cut off from all the rush and hassle elsewhere.
By all means sort out Dawlish properly, but does the South West really want much more ?

It’s an interesting opinion that there is some truth in, and I don’t think you should be shot down for having it.
Devon and Cornwall can’t be allowed to be completely preserved in aspic though, otherwise the A30 and A38 would still be single carriageway roads and the M5 would’ve only reached Bristol.
I wish I had more time to get into this but I’m off to work now.

 

[yorksrob]

I know I'll be shot down but I always think that many people decide to live in Devon or Cornwall partly because it's a bit cut off from all the rush and hassle elsewhere.
By all means sort out Dawlish properly, but does the South West really want much more ?

Yes. Quite apart from born and bred westerners, who need links with the rest of the world to do business, go to the university/airport etc, people who move there will also still have connections and friends and relatives who may want to visit.

There are also local travel needs that would be served by the Okehampton route, for people getting into Plymouth and Exeter.

I visit north Norfolk regularly, and the lack of a six lane motorway in the vicinity undoubtedly adds to the areas charm. Nevertheless, I would find it much more difficult to get there without the line to Sheringham.

 

[Railwaysceptic]

No point building a new line to 100mph standard, could be argued you should build it to HS2 standards even the trains don't run at that speed initially, and certainly engineering it to the max capability of IEP would seem to make sense to me even if they only ran initially at 125mph along with Voyagers etc.

I disagree. The initial investigation of re-opening the East-West route between Bicester and Bletchley revealed that building for 100 mph was far cheaper than building for higher speeds. There needs therefore to be a major justification for those higher speeds. Over medium distances, e.g. Taunton to Plymouth, higher speeds will not reduce the journey time by a great amount and it is extremely unlikely that a cost/benefit analysis would produce a case for 125 or 140 mph as opposed to 100 mph.

 

[deltic08]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-devon-26874503


The BBC at the time suggested the cost was £35m.

And £15m to remove the landslide and stabilise the cliffs according to Network Rail,

 

[deltic08]

My view is if your going to build an alternate line then you should look the viability of going the whole hog and look at high speed line between Exeter and Plymouth to substancially reduce journey time, and by high speed line I mean an electrified line with at least 140mph top speed which could initially take advantage IET max capability with perhaps 1 intermediate probably Parkway station depending on routing. Possibly it wouldn't have a good BCR but it could be looked at by the government as a commitment to significantly improve infrastructure to the South West.

The problem with Okehampton route is two fold, one is its unlikely to be significantly quicker, and two the diversionary route is a justification by the fanatics desperate to get this route reopened.

But also puts two towns back on the railway map and connects them to each other providing an option to the car, fanatics or not

 

[Class37.4]

I disagree. The initial investigation of re-opening the East-West route between Bicester and Bletchley revealed that building for 100 mph was far cheaper than building for higher speeds. There needs therefore to be a major justification for those higher speeds. Over medium distances, e.g. Taunton to Plymouth, higher speeds will not reduce the journey time by a great amount and it is extremely unlikely that a cost/benefit analysis would produce a case for 125 or 140 mph as opposed to 100 mph.

Well you could cost various option re time saved verses speed, and while the current route isn't the fastest of routes you ought to be looking at bringing the journey time down to around 30 mins, I would also suggest that the idea of looking at a fast route between Exeter and Plymouth might have different criteria to reopening the East- West route.

 

[Class37.4]

But also puts two towns back on the railway map and connects them to each other providing an option to the car, fanatics or not

By all means look at improving rail links in North Devon but don't try put it on the back of another project because the Okehampton - Plymouth has absolutely NO business case on its own, hence the fanatics desperation that we must have diversionary route and the only option is OKEHAMPTON

Of course we have yet to see a regular service to Okehampton from Exeter despite the fact this could be reinstated at fairly moderate cost in the grand scheme of things.

 

[yorksrob]

By all means look at improving rail links in North Devon but don't try put it on the back of another project because the Okehampton - Plymouth has absolutely NO business case on its own, hence the fanatics desperation that we must have diversionary route and the only option is OKEHAMPTON

Of course we have yet to see a regular service to Okehampton from Exeter despite the fact this could be reinstated at fairly moderate cost in the grand scheme of things.

You clearly have an axe to grind by your use of the words 'fanatic' and 'desparate'.

How is trying leveraging in a high speed line, any less "on the back" of the project to increase resilience, than the Okehampton route ?

Both proposals would by-pass the affected stretch during times of disruption, Okehampton by-passing rather more potentially disrupted route, so both proposals demonstrably increase resilience.

 

[Robertj21a]

Yes. Quite apart from born and bred westerners, who need links with the rest of the world to do business, go to the university/airport etc, people who move there will also still have connections and friends and relatives who may want to visit.

There are also local travel needs that would be served by the Okehampton route, for people getting into Plymouth and Exeter.

I visit north Norfolk regularly, and the lack of a six lane motorway in the vicinity undoubtedly adds to the areas charm. Nevertheless, I would find it much more difficult to get there without the line to Sheringham.

I accept that I'm not a local but this ongoing fascination about Okehampton always intrigues me. Its only a fairly tiny place, but already has the A30 dual-carriageway nearby which, presumably, meets the needs of the vast majority who might want to travel to Exeter, Plymouth or Cornwall. Indeed, it seems far better placed than many other towns in the area. I recognise that some locals can't drive, or just prefer trains, but it's a bit difficult to see how that justifies significant expenditure.

 

[The Ham]

By all means look at improving rail links in North Devon but don't try put it on the back of another project because the Okehampton - Plymouth has absolutely NO business case on its own, hence the fanatics desperation that we must have diversionary route and the only option is OKEHAMPTON

Of course we have yet to see a regular service to Okehampton from Exeter despite the fact this could be reinstated at fairly moderate cost in the grand scheme of things.

You fail to realise that there's more than just Okehampton to Plymouth. There's also Exeter to Tavistock (and to a lesser extent Plymouth).

It also depends on where trains run, in that if they start from Waterloo that would add a lot of towns and cities with a direct, or one change of, train to Plymouth, Okehampton and Tavistock. Often significantly reducing journey times over the existing situation.

 

[Railwaysceptic]

Well you could cost various option re time saved verses speed, and while the current route isn't the fastest of routes you ought to be looking at bringing the journey time down to around 30 mins, I would also suggest that the idea of looking at a fast route between Exeter and Plymouth might have different criteria to reopening the East- West route.

No-one is disputing that the current route is inadequate and that higher speeds would be very welcome. The question is 100 mph or 125 mph. The reasons for re-opening East/West Rail might be different but the issue of value for money is the same for all projects.

 

[deltic08]

There is no realistic diversion route for York-Northallerton when total closure happens 7 times a year on average.

Reinstating Harrogate/Starbeck-Ripon-Northallerton would solve this problem at a stroke and is a very valid reason to reinstate but not strong enough in the business case as East Coast and TPE refused to confirm if they would use it in an emergency.

Reinstating Okehampton should be a no brainer as it would have to be used for diversions for resilience.

There are another dozen valid reasons to reinstate the Ripon line.

 

[Ash Bridge]

I accept that I'm not a local but this ongoing fascination about Okehampton always intrigues me. Its only a fairly tiny place, but already has the A30 dual-carriageway nearby which, presumably, meets the needs of the vast majority who might want to travel to Exeter, Plymouth or Cornwall. Indeed, it seems far better placed than many other towns in the area. I recognise that some locals can't drive, or just prefer trains, but it's a bit difficult to see how that justifies significant expenditure.

Have you ever driven from Okehampton to Exeter via the A30? Exeter has rather awful traffic congestion and not just at peak times. The A30 dual carriageway is also prone to bad congestion during the holiday season and also when any traffic incident may have occurred which generally makes it grind to a halt. Should you be lucky and have a clear run; this will soon be spoiled upon leaving the A30 at Alphington to join the A377 into the city centre which for most of the day is pretty much a solid queue in both directions, I could therefore imagine a 30 minute train journey between these two stations would prove to be a rather attractive alternative to a somewhat hit and miss (at the best of times) car journey. Parkway stations sited either side of Okehampton would surely attract business from places such as Launceston and other surrounding towns and villages which currently have the only option of the A30.

 

[Class37.4]

You fail to realise that there's more than just Okehampton to Plymouth. There's also Exeter to Tavistock (and to a lesser extent Plymouth).

It also depends on where trains run, in that if they start from Waterloo that would add a lot of towns and cities with a direct, or one change of, train to Plymouth, Okehampton and Tavistock. Often significantly reducing journey times over the existing situation.

Oh here we go, oh yes a through train to Waterloo just like the old days!! the typical lets reopen an old line mentality, will it include Steam Loco's as well? and then you wonder why I have no time for many so called rail campaign groups.

Tavistock Plymouth fairly cheap to implement without the need to spend hundreds of millions and for the size of market Exeter to Tavistock could go via Plymouth but despite various noises that hasn't happened either. That leaves Tavistock-Okehampton which has no reasonable business case other than as part of a Dawlish Diversionary route, but that should be considered as what is the best solution to the Dawlish issue not what's best for North Devon.

Of Course both Plym-Tavistock and Exeter-Okehampton can be reopened fairly cheaply with a basic service and basic capacity, as soon as it becomes part a diversionary route, then your looking at being engineered to a much higher capacity and cost.

 

[Class37.4]

There is no realistic diversion route for York-Northallerton when total closure happens 7 times a year on average.

Reinstating Harrogate/Starbeck-Ripon-Northallerton would solve this problem at a stroke and is a very valid reason to reinstate but not strong enough in the business case as East Coast and TPE refused to confirm if they would use it in an emergency.

Reinstating Okehampton should be a no brainer as it would have to be used for diversions for resilience.

There are another dozen valid reasons to reinstate the Ripon line.

So your basically saying TPE/EC might just stick with buses, perhaps the TOC's might just do the same with Okehampton.

 

[Robertj21a]

Have you ever driven from Okehampton to Exeter via the A30? Exeter has rather awful traffic congestion and not just at peak times. The A30 dual carriageway is also prone to bad congestion during the holiday season and also when any traffic incident may have occurred which generally makes it grind to a halt. Should you be lucky and have a clear run; this will soon be spoiled upon leaving the A30 at Alphington to join the A377 into the city centre which for most of the day is pretty much a solid queue in both directions, I could therefore imagine a 30 minute train journey between these two stations would prove to be a rather attractive alternative to a somewhat hit and miss (at the best of times) car journey. Parkway stations sited either side of Okehampton would surely attract business from places such as Launceston and other surrounding towns and villages which currently have the only option of the A30.

Yes, although I don't live in the area, I've driven along the A30 on a number of occasions. I recognise that Exeter can be a bit of a pain to get in to at busy times (I use the P&R) but then so are most cities and big towns nowadays. It just doesn't sound like there's anything like enough passengers, in what is quite a large catchment area. Is there a likelihood of significant freight that could boost a business case ?

 

[yorksrob]

I accept that I'm not a local but this ongoing fascination about Okehampton always intrigues me. Its only a fairly tiny place, but already has the A30 dual-carriageway nearby which, presumably, meets the needs of the vast majority who might want to travel to Exeter, Plymouth or Cornwall. Indeed, it seems far better placed than many other towns in the area. I recognise that some locals can't drive, or just prefer trains, but it's a bit difficult to see how that justifies significant expenditure.

It's not just Okehampton though. It's also Tavistock as well as Crediton and wider areas of North Cornwall.

Taken apart, you potentially have two dead end branchlines which add congestion to the existing mainline and do nothing for resilience. If you have it as a through route, you increase resilience, provide extra capacity to the main line and improve connections between the West Country and the South of England, if run as an extension from Waterloo.

 

[The Planner]

Ive asked this one before in the past and will again, if Okehampton and opening up North Cornwall is such a winner, why aren't GWR attempting to run there or pushing for the existing track to be upgraded?

 

[Sir Felix Pole]

Plan 'B' for Dawlish - rockfall shelter now on the agenda.

https://www.devonlive.com/news/devon-news/major-announcement-future-dawlish-rail-2225042

But at Thursday morning’s Teignbridge Locality Committee meeting, David Lovell, Network Rail Programme Manager for the Western and Wales region revealed that although the line is still set to be realigned, it won’t move as far away from the cliffs and across the beach as initially planned.

Mr Lovell said: “Our designer is currently development the track alignment to reduce reclamation and are continuing to work up options based on extensive investigations. We are proposing a design that will be similar to a rockfall shelter and will reduce the impact on the beach. The issue is that we have is that we cannot physically present what it will look like at the moment.”

 

[yorksrob]

Plan 'B' for Dawlish - rockfall shelter now on the agenda.

https://www.devonlive.com/news/devon-news/major-announcement-future-dawlish-rail-2225042

Well, they have these on the Kyle line, so it's possible. I hope the front wall isn't solid so we can keep the sea views.

 

[yorksrob]

Ive asked this one before in the past and will again, if Okehampton and opening up North Cornwall is such a winner, why aren't GWR attempting to run there or pushing for the existing track to be upgraded?

Because you know as well as I do that TOC's are primarily concerned with running what they have to without making a loss.

 

[swt_passenger]

Plan 'B' for Dawlish - rockfall shelter now on the agenda.

https://www.devonlive.com/news/devon-news/major-announcement-future-dawlish-rail-2225042

More evidence that there’ll be no inland route, IMHO.

 

[The Ham]

Oh here we go, oh yes a through train to Waterloo just like the old days!! the typical lets reopen an old line mentality, will it include Steam Loco's as well? and then you wonder why I have no time for many so called rail campaign groups.

Tavistock Plymouth fairly cheap to implement without the need to spend hundreds of millions and for the size of market Exeter to Tavistock could go via Plymouth but despite various noises that hasn't happened either. That leaves Tavistock-Okehampton which has no reasonable business case other than as part of a Dawlish Diversionary route, but that should be considered as what is the best solution to the Dawlish issue not what's best for North Devon.

Of Course both Plym-Tavistock and Exeter-Okehampton can be reopened fairly cheaply with a basic service and basic capacity, as soon as it becomes part a diversionary route, then your looking at being engineered to a much higher capacity and cost.

I never said that it would be just like it was in the old days. In fact there's several times where I've said that a reopening wouldn't have been sensible because capacity of the existing lines wouldn't allow it. However there are some cases when reopenings make sense (such as East West, or should we build that as a HS line too?).

I would argue that building the line to bridge the gap to allow through services via Okehampton would make the business case for a HS line better as more people would be using trains to travel between Exeter and Plymouth, and so the economic benefit would be greater as it would benefit more people.

If you are looking for a high speed line going through the Devon countryside is probably one of the last places that will have one built given that it would only have 1 tph using it in each direction from London because of capacity constraints elsewhere.

I've highlighted this problem (and other problems) with a HS route and no one has responded.

 

[swt_passenger]

I never said that it would be just like it was in the old days. In fact there's several times where I've said that a reopening would’ve be sensible because capacity of the existing lines wouldn't allow it...

Did you mean “wouldn’t be sensible”?