Should the Wales and Borders franchise be branded differently e.g. 'Wales & Borders'?

[Meole]

Branding helps customers appreciate the service that TfW provides both inside and outside Wales, without such service many would suffer inferior transport.

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

just a thought, but the TrawsCymru bus services are, according to the Welsh Government, designed to fill in the gaps in the Welsh rail network... so why, if they had a ready made and recognised brand in TrawsCymru why didn't the WAG specify this brand for the new rail franchise.. instead of going for the insipid and uninspired TfW brand?

 

[gazthomas]

TrawsCymru in English is of course AcrossWales. Not really relevant when your services go to Manchester Piccadilly, Birmingham and other places not in Wales. I do admit though that TfW is uninspiring as is the livery. I would have loved to see trains looking like Crosville Cymru Leyland Olympian buses donning white, green with red dragons in the 1980s/1990s. Others have suggested Wales & Borders and in many respects that is the geographical scope of the franchise. Politics and politicians don't necessarily equate to inspiration!

 

[gazthomas]

I can hear less sympathetic folk suggesting "TaffRail" !

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

TrawsCymru in English is of course AcrossWales. Not really relevant when your services go to Manchester Piccadilly, Birmingham and other places not in Wales. I do admit though that TfW is uninspiring as is the livery. I would have loved to see trains looking like Crosville Cymru Leyland Olympian buses donning white, green with red dragons in the 1980s/1990s. Others have suggested Wales & Borders and in many respects that is the geographical scope of the franchise. Politics and politicians don't necessarily equate to inspiration!

well "AcrossWales" is of course the main reason d'aitre of the franchise surely? though I agree with your livery idea... perhaps in the shades now used by TrawsCymru... at least then there would be a visual cue to the oneness of the public transport options in Wales

 

[iantherev]

Perhaps it would be a good idea to get the buses used on Traws Cymru routes in Traws Cymru livery before worrying about the trains.

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

Perhaps it would be a good idea to get the buses used on Traws Cymru routes in Traws Cymru livery before worrying about the trains.

That's an unfortunate weakness of the TrawsCymru brand... operators are only allowed to use the buses on TrawsCymru routes... therefore operators tend to have only enough to cover PVR which leads to non-branded buses if there's a breakdown

 

[iantherev]

It’s not helped by the expansion in my area which has led to an increase in Stagecoach corporate liveried vehicles pending delivery of new vehicles next year.

 

[jimm]

well "AcrossWales" is of course the main reason d'aitre of the franchise surely?

For many people living in the English counties of Herefordshire, Shropshire and Cheshire and in the western part of Gloucestershire this franchise is the principal or sole railway service available to them, so giving it a Welsh language brand name would be a bit much frankly - especially given the cloth ear many people living in those places believe is turned to their concerns by the WAG when it comes to timetable changes and services at their stations generally.

Unless the WAG is also planning a takeover bid for Hennfford, Amwythig, etc...

Wales & Marches would be a far better brand name - I would suggest that as far as most people are concerned Borders equals the south-east of Scotland.

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

For many people living in the English counties of Herefordshire, Shropshire and Cheshire and in the western part of Gloucestershire this franchise is the principal or sole railway service available to them, so giving it a Welsh language brand name would be a bit much frankly - especially given the cloth ear many people living in those places believe is turned to their concerns by the WAG when it comes to timetable changes and services at their stations generally.

Unless the WAG is also planning a takeover bid for Hennfford, Amwythig, etc...

Wales & Marches would be a far better brand name - I would suggest that as far as most people are concerned Borders equals the south-east of Scotland.

Isn't "AcrossWales" a lot less antagonistic towards customers on services in England than Transport for Wales?

Transport for Wales could be construed as "we only care about our services in Wales... we only operate your service because we have to"

 

[Bertie the bus]

The Welsh are quite insistent on trains in Wales being announced in their language therefore it is only polite that if they run trains in England the branding is in English. ScotRail may mean Scottish or Scotland’s railway but it is in English.

 

[Cardiff123]

Oh no here we go again, this is quickly going to turn into another Welsh Vs English thread and how dare anything Welsh branded or carrying the Welsh language set foot in England.
To answer the original Q, I have no doubt that once TfW start running bus services the Traws Cymru brand will disappear and will be replaced by the TfW brand, as that's the whole reason for TfW's existence, to eventually be running all public transport in Wales.

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

Oh no here we go again, this is quickly going to turn into another Welsh Vs English thread and how dare anything Welsh branded or carrying the Welsh language set foot in England.
To answer the original Q, I have no doubt that once TfW start running bus services the Traws Cymru brand will disappear and will be replaced by the TfW brand, as that's the whole reason for TfW's existence, to eventually be running all public transport in Wales.

yes but why not just go with the branding that is already established? apart from the fact that the colours of TrawsCymru have some Welsh significance

 

[mmh]

Oh dear Lord, not this nonsense yet again.

Isn't "AcrossWales" a lot less antagonistic towards customers on services in England than Transport for Wales?

Transport for Wales could be construed as "we only care about our services in Wales... we only operate your service because we have to"

As has been mentioned countless times before, nobody is antagonised by the use of the word "Wales". Well, perhaps some ludicrous people are, and if so, tough. The new franchise name has exactly the same number uses of the W-word as the previous one, and one before that.

The Welsh are quite insistent on trains in Wales being announced in their language therefore it is only polite that if they run trains in England the branding is in English. ScotRail may mean Scottish or Scotland’s railway but it is in English.

I think you'll more likely find "the Welsh" don't do anything of the sort and we couldn't care less what the train company name is. Being annoyed by seeing the Welsh language used is a bizarrely English trait that we really can't fathom the reason for. Jealousy?

Oh no here we go again, this is quickly going to turn into another Welsh Vs English thread and how dare anything Welsh branded or carrying the Welsh language set foot in England.
To answer the original Q, I have no doubt that once TfW start running bus services the Traws Cymru brand will disappear and will be replaced by the TfW brand, as that's the whole reason for TfW's existence, to eventually be running all public transport in Wales.

Quite, and Traws Cymru is far from a well-known brand. My memory of it is from 30 odd years ago as Traws Cambria, and even back then you had to get a train to Bangor to get one. Perhaps it's different in the south, but in the north next to nobody will ever have heard of it.

 

[krus_aragon]

Quite, and Traws Cymru is far from a well-known brand. My memory of it is from 30 odd years ago as Traws Cambria, and even back then you had to get a train to Bangor to get one. Perhaps it's different in the south, but

And that name change happened to try to get away from the derogative name that was being used for Traws-Cambria: Traws-Crwban (Cross-Turtle).

 

[Bertie the bus]

I think you'll more likely find "the Welsh" don't do anything of the sort and we couldn't care less what the train company name is. Being annoyed by seeing the Welsh language used is a bizarrely English trait that we really can't fathom the reason for. Jealousy?

The Welsh do exactly that. When trains weren't being announced in Welsh at Cardiff Queen St the First Minister himself got involved. Here's the story about him getting upset about it:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-28282600

The first minister and Arriva Trains Wales (ATW) have clashed publicly on social media over the absence of Welsh language announcements at a Cardiff station.
Carwyn Jones used his AM Twitter account to question the rail company on Saturday about Queen Street station, quipping: "Has the border moved?"
He then criticised ATW's response as "shirty" and "unprofessional".
ATW said "we sincerely apologise" for an inappropriate response to the query.
The comments from the first minister came after he had been to open the Tafwyl festival at Cardiff Castle, an event to celebrate the use of the Welsh language in the capital city.
But he turned to Twitter after being at the nearby station, stating: "English only announcements at Cardiff Queen Street today. Has the border moved?"

Saying something is polite doesn't imply I would be annoyed otherwise and I have absolutely no idea what you think I should be jealous of.

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

Oh dear Lord, not this nonsense yet again.

perhaps before describing something I say as nonsense you would have the courtesy to find out what I am responding to... my comments that you describe as "nonsense" were a response to someone who said that "TrawsCymru" was too Welsh for the English to stomach

Quite, and Traws Cymru is far from a well-known brand. My memory of it is from 30 odd years ago as Traws Cambria, and even back then you had to get a train to Bangor to get one. Perhaps it's different in the south, but in the north next to nobody will ever have heard of it.

TrawsCymru didn't exist 30 yrs ago! and certainly the brand/ image is no more than 5 yrs old... but in that time it has become an established public transport brand... as a bus driver I can confirm people do say they are catching the Traws in the same way that yrs ago Londoners would say they were getting the Green Line...and my original point was that TrawsCymru buses are meant to provide plugs to the gaps in the train service therefore surely it would make sense for the trains to be using the same brand for both!

 

[jimm]

Isn't "AcrossWales" a lot less antagonistic towards customers on services in England than Transport for Wales?

Transport for Wales could be construed as "we only care about our services in Wales... we only operate your service because we have to"

The TOC in question does not just provide services 'for Wales' or 'AcrossWales'. It provides services, as everyone knows, for a substantial part of England as well - and, yes, some people living in those places do construe such branding as meaning that 'we only care about our services in Wales'.

A branding on the trains that made a nod to the geographical reality - that this is not solely a TOC for Wales - would simply be an honest reflection of reality.

As has been mentioned countless times before, nobody is antagonised by the use of the word "Wales". Well, perhaps some ludicrous people are, and if so, tough. The new franchise name has exactly the same number uses of the W-word as the previous one, and one before that.

]I think you'll more likely find "the Welsh" don't do anything of the sort and we couldn't care less what the train company name is. Being annoyed by seeing the Welsh language used is a bizarrely English trait that we really can't fathom the reason for. Jealousy?

A brand name that was 'Wales & something constituting a nod to the large parts of England served by the franchise' would go down a lot better than something that just mentions Wales - in whatever language. A view that was commonplace in those parts of England throughout the life of Arriva Trains Wales and won't change in the era of Transport for Wales.

So the Welsh would be completely laid-back and relaxed if Labour renationalised everything and started sending trains branded 'Transport for England' to Swansea and Holyhead, would they? I have my doubts.

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

The TOC in question does not just provide services 'for Wales' or 'AcrossWales'. It provides services, as everyone knows, for a substantial part of England as well - and, yes, some people living in those places do construe such branding as meaning that 'we only care about our services in Wales'.

but how much of that "substantial part" of England are served exclusively by the TfW services? very little I should think, especially once out of the Marches

 

[OrangeJuice]

but how much of that "substantial part" of England are served exclusively by the TfW services? very little I should think, especially once out of the Marches

I think there will be commuters between Chester and Manchester or Crewe to Shrewsbury which would disagree with you. Although Northern adding Chester to Leeds would change this.

Part of the reason for the issue could be due to the previous no growth franchise (let by DfT) and a perceived belief that the Welsh operator didn't care about peak Manchester commuters - does anyone know who introduced the LHCS to improve capacity?

 

[Eccles1983]

but how much of that "substantial part" of England are served exclusively by the TfW services? very little I should think, especially once out of the Marches

The bits that make money. Chester-Manchester/Chester-Crewe.

 

[jimm]

but how much of that "substantial part" of England are served exclusively by the TfW services? very little I should think, especially once out of the Marches

Are you trying to suggest by putting quote marks around 'substantial part' that a Cardiff-Manchester service covering 50 miles in Wales and 150 miles in England, and making a lot more stops in England, is 'for Wales' or 'across Wales"?

GWR services between London and Swansea and beyond cover more distance than that within Wales and less in England. Maybe they should also be branded as 'Transport for Wales'?

Do I really needs to tell you which bits of the TfW network are in England? It's not that hard to work out, nor which bits have no other TOC sharing a route, such as the entire distance from the southern edge of Herefordshire to Crewe, or the bits where the 'Welsh' operator is running half the services.

Not that anyone would get a clue about geographical reality looking at the official TfW map, which manages to make Aberystwyth appear to be at the end of a branch line somewhere in the heart of Wales. While the London Underground map has always played around with proportions and distance, it does give some approximate idea of London geography and has the Thames running through it to help - other than ferry ports being indicated on this thing, it has nothing to suggest where the Welsh coast might be, never mind the border with England.

https://tfwrail.wales/sites/tfwrail.wales/files/2018-10/Accessibility Map A4 241018 v6.pdf

 

[Dai Corner]

Not that anyone would get a clue about geographical reality looking at the official TfW map, which manages to make Aberystwyth appear to be at the end of a branch line somewhere in the heart of Wales. While the London Underground map has always played around with proportions and distance, it does give some approximate idea of London geography and has the Thames running through it to help - other than ferry ports being indicated on this thing, it has nothing to suggest where the Welsh coast might be, never mind the border with England.

https://tfwrail.wales/sites/tfwrail.wales/files/2018-10/Accessibility Map A4 241018 v6.pdf

There were geographical maps on the TfW website but they had to be withdrawn after a day or two for the reasons noted on this page, where they have been preserved. No new ones have yet appeared.

http://www.projectmapping.co.uk/Reviews/atw_wales_train_rail_maps.html

 

[Gwenllian2001]

Perhaps those people who go on and on and on about this are unaware, or don't care, that three large operaters serving Wales, and stations in Wales, make no mention of this in their titles. Great Western, Virgin and Cross Country. Nobody, to my knowledge, has died or been otherwise seriously inconvenienced by this so please give it a rest and find something sensible to grumble about.

 

[johnnychips]

^
Good. I would suggest that if the trains turned up on time, were of sufficient length and frequency, you could call it ‘Transport for Argentina’ and everybody would be delighted.

 

[urbophile]

Can somebody explain why the automatic barriers at Liverpool Central (in England, believe it or not, and served exclusively by Merseyrail) are now proudly bearing stickers saying 'Transport for Wales: your new rail operator'??

 

[Bletchleyite]

Can somebody explain why the automatic barriers at Liverpool Central (in England, believe it or not, and served exclusively by Merseyrail) are now proudly bearing stickers saying 'Transport for Wales: your new rail operator'??

Are TfW paying for advertising? I've seen paid advertising on barrier paddles before, and I'm sure I've seen the TfW thing in places where they'd have to pay for it (i.e. places other than the normal railway poster frames).

 

[Gwenllian2001]

^
Good. I would suggest that if the trains turned up on time, were of sufficient length and frequency, you could call it ‘Transport for Argentina’ and everybody would be delighted.

For many years buses branded Western Welsh operated routes in Gloucestershire and Somerset. I can't recall the pitchforks being brandished at the interlopers nor Rhondda buses stopping short at Porth for that matter. As the youngsters say, some people should 'get a life's.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Maybe people should get less worked up on "branding" and pay more concern to actual train service provision. ? (which for all sorts of reasons is not good at the moment - in Wales , and elsewhere !)

Not that I am suggesting a return to "Austerity" grey and wooden slatted seats on buses ...

 

[Sir Felix Pole]

Wilmslow station has TfW posters in Welsh, although I am able to admire the route diagram. It is only right and proper, however, that the UIC standard for station naming should be adopted - even the Gare du Nord in Paris shows London rather than Londres on the departure boards. Manceinion, Amwythig - pah!