Massive difference in bus fares between two bus operators who jointly operate the same route.

[swt class 450]

Route 93 is a West Sussex County Council bus contract between Milland and Midhurst operating three times a week. On Wednesday and Saturday it is operated by Stagecoach whilst on Friday it is operated by Compass Bus.

WSCC allows bus operators to set their own fares on their contracted routes. The difference in fares between the two bus operators for the same bus route is massive. Here is an example:

Milland to Midhurst fares:
£2.80 Single / £4.70 Return - Stagecoach
£5.90 Single / £8.50 Return - Compass Bus

The difference between all other journeys on this route are also huge. Even a Single on Compass Bus is more expensive than a Return on Stagecoach! It is ridiculous!

Although it is a rural route with mostly OAPs there are still some paying passengers. I imagine these passengers must try to avoid the Compass Bus journeys and take Stagecoach where possible.

Does anyone know of any other examples of this anywhere in the UK? I would be interested to hear of other similar examples?

 

[TheWalrus]

I think the activ8 service from Andover to Salisbury jointly operated by Stagecoach and Salisbury reds used to have slightly different fares. Not sure if this is still the case.

 

[Statto]

Merseyside have joint Stagecoach/Arriva routes under Quality Bus Partnership[QBP] but the routes are commercial so operators charge there own fares, & think it's illegal for operators to agree to charge the same fares for commercial routes, however Merseytravel have there own fares for tendered routes. Think Merseytravel are one of the few authorities that have their own fares for tendered routes, rather than letting the bus company set them.

 

[Deerfold]

Merseyside have joint Stagecoach/Arriva routes under Quality Bus Partnership[QBP] but the routes are commercial so operators charge there own fares, & think it's illegal for operators to agree to charge the same fares for commercial routes

I don't think it's as simple as that. I believe Stagecoach and trentbarton charge the same fares on Pronto.

 

[goldisgood]

Lots of Oxford's QBP services have differences in fares, with Stagecoach cheaper for most routes.

 

[Statto]

I don't think it's as simple as that. I believe Stagecoach and trentbarton charge the same fares on Pronto.

As someone who lives outside the area, but would have a ride on the Pronto one day, i'm still not sure what tickets in particular day tickets are valid on the other company, i have a ENCTS disabled pass but i'm not sure whether that's valid, same situation with the X38 Derby-Burton

 

[Mwanesh]

I don't think it's as simple as that. I believe Stagecoach and trentbarton charge the same fares on Pronto.

There are slight differences here and there if they charged the same they will be in breach of the Competition act or MMA whatever it is called.Remember the North East fiasco .

 

[EM2]

This is nothing new. Way back in the late '80s, Maidstone & District used to charge 80p single on the 8 and 9, whereas Nu-Venture charged 40p.

 

[Hophead]

Lots of Oxford's QBP services have differences in fares, with Stagecoach cheaper for most routes.

Period tickets (one-day and up) are identically priced however. That applies to paper and smart cards.

 

[goldisgood]

Period tickets (one-day and up) are identically priced however. That applies to paper and smart cards.

Yeah, Smartzone is identically priced but singles and returns tend to be cheaper on Stagecoach.

 

[randyrippley]

Google "Stagecoach predatory pricing" and then maybe you will understand

They've been at it for years

 

[Deerfold]

As someone who lives outside the area, but would have a ride on the Pronto one day, i'm still not sure what tickets in particular day tickets are valid on the other company, i have a ENCTS disabled pass but i'm not sure whether that's valid, same situation with the X38 Derby-Burton

Both services take ENCTS as normal. Both Derby and Nottingham exclude the Red Arrow from the scheme.

trentbarton's ZigZag is not valid on Pronto. It is valid on their X38s (so, typically, valid on 2 in a row then not on the next 2).

Stagecoach's Day Explorer is not valid on Pronto.

Arriva's Leicester and Derby ZonePlus Day ticket is valid on their own X38s.

 

[Statto]

Both services take ENCTS as normal. Both Derby and Nottingham exclude the Red Arrow from the scheme.

trentbarton's ZigZag is not valid on Pronto. It is valid on their X38s (so, typically, valid on 2 in a row then not on the next 2).

Stagecoach's Day Explorer is not valid on Pronto.

Arriva's Leicester and Derby ZonePlus Day ticket is valid on their own X38s.

Cheers for that, always get confused as to what's valid on what, but surprised Stagecoach & TrentBarton don't accept there own day tickets on the Pronto.

 

[James101]

Regarding the original post, could it be to do with ENCS reimbursement? Are Compass attempting to inflate the average fare to get a greater pay back?

 

[ashworth]

Cheers for that, always get confused as to what's valid on what, but surprised Stagecoach & TrentBarton don't accept there own day tickets on the Pronto.

Stagecoach and TrentBarton not even accepting their own day tickets on Pronto has been discussed many times in the Nottingham Bus Wars thread. There just doesn’t ever seem to be any sign of a solution to this ridiculous and inconvenient situation. It’s so annoying for the fare paying passenger who has already purchased a Stagecoach Day Explorer or a Trent Barton Zigzag to then board a Pronto bus and have to pay an additional fare.

 

[James Wake]

Another one and it involves Compass Bus again, I only found this out on Saturday when the driver sold this ticket to a fellow passenger.

Redhill to Reigate (single shown)

Metrobus 420/435/460 £2.50 (10-15 min average journey)

Southdown 357 £2.50 (15-20 min average journey)

Compass Bus 32 £4.00 (20 min average journey)

 

[Typhoon]

Another one and it involves Compass Bus again, I only found this out on Saturday when the driver sold this ticket to a fellow passenger.

Redhill to Reigate (single shown)

Metrobus 420/435/460 £2.50 (10-15 min average journey)

Southdown 357 £2.50 (15-20 min average journey)

Compass Bus 32 £4.00 (20 min average journey)

Interesting.
Both Southdown and Metrobus have farecharts on their websites (I couldn't find one for Compass). Southdown has a return fare (same as Compass' single), Metrobus does not for that journey so adding a further adding complexity (no clue about Compass).
The three companies take completely different routes to go between the two places so that only passengers travelling from Redhill to Reigate would be affected. Metrobus wins on frequency (4 an hour) and speed so I wonder whether the other two have taken different approaches to pricing, Compass pricing by distance (longer journey higher fare) and Southdown trying to maximise passenger numbers. I'm not surprised about Southdown, I have always found them a passenger-centred business. The 32 isn't a Surrey contracted route by any chance?

 

[Busaholic]

Interesting.
Both Southdown and Metrobus have farecharts on their websites (I couldn't find one for Compass). Southdown has a return fare (same as Compass' single), Metrobus does not for that journey so adding a further adding complexity (no clue about Compass).
The three companies take completely different routes to go between the two places so that only passengers travelling from Redhill to Reigate would be affected. Metrobus wins on frequency (4 an hour) and speed so I wonder whether the other two have taken different approaches to pricing, Compass pricing by distance (longer journey higher fare) and Southdown trying to maximise passenger numbers. I'm not surprised about Southdown, I have always found them a passenger-centred business. The 32 isn't a Surrey contracted route by any chance?

I wonder whether ENCTS reimbursement isn't behind this. The passholder doesn't need to care how much the fare is, so academic to them. Compass may be on a different reimbursement scheme than the other companies? I've heard this about a couple of counties, where the 'big boy' companies' claims are treated differently, arguably more favourably, and this is an attempt at a more level playing field. Shame for the fare-paying passenger, though! As said, I've NO evidence of this, just conjecture.

 

[swt class 450]

Here are the full fares in regards to the Redhill to Reigate example you mentioned:

Redhill to Reigate:
• £4.00 Single / £5.40 Return - Compass Bus
• £2.50 Single / £5.00 Day (No Returns) - Go Ahead
• £2.50 Single / £4.00 Return - Southdown PSV

The 32 is a fully commercial bus route.

I have been looking in to this more and Compass Bus seem to charge very high fares compared to their other bus operators in the area. Here are some more examples:

Bramber to Steyning:
• £3.30 Single / £5.20 Return - Compass Bus
• £2.00 Single / £3.80 Return - Go Ahead

Henfield to Woodmancote:
• £2.20 Single / £3.50 Return - Compass Bus
• £1.50 Single / £2.50 Return - Stagecoach

Lancing to Worthing:
• £5.30 Single / £8.30 Return - Compass Bus
• £3.00 Single / £5.10 Return - Stagecoach

Pulborough to Storrington:
• £5.30 Single / £8.30 Return - Compass Bus
• £3.70 Single / £6.30 Return - Stagecoach

So it looks like the Milland to Midhurst fares are not the only example of this (although i think the Milland to Midhurst example still wins so far as the biggest difference).

I imagine it could indeed be something to do with the ENCTS reimbursement considering that many of their routes are rural routes that carry mostly OAPs. Or perhaps they are indeed on a different reimbursement scheme to the big operators. Who knows.

 

[Hophead]

Further to the Redhill examples, Metrobus used to have ticket inter-availability on a number of their services, and these were listed on the website. On a trawl last night, I found nothing. It would certainly be a retrograde step for these to be withdrawn, but perhaps that is now the case?

On a further note regarding the fares quoted above, a one-day ticket covering Redhill & Reigate is £4.40 when used on The Key, or mobile app.

And, finally, I have now managed to track down the list of other operators accepting Metrobus tickets. For Southdown 357 it says:

Route 424, Southdown PSV - Redhill & Reigate Metroriders (including mobile tickets) accepted between Redhill and Salfords Church between points that could also have been made on Metrobus services. Crawley Metroriders accepted between Horley and Burstow. Metrovoyagers (including mobile tickets) accepted between Redhill and Horley Waitrose between points that could also have been made on Metrobus services. If using a key card, please show the driver a printed receipt of your ticket purchase, along with your key card.

 

[RT4038]

I wonder whether ENCTS reimbursement isn't behind this. The passholder doesn't need to care how much the fare is, so academic to them. Compass may be on a different reimbursement scheme than the other companies? I've heard this about a couple of counties, where the 'big boy' companies' claims are treated differently, arguably more favourably, and this is an attempt at a more level playing field. Shame for the fare-paying passenger, though! As said, I've NO evidence of this, just conjecture.

Instead of the conspiracy theory, I should think it is more like that this route (which is really shopping excursions rather than a joint bus 'service') is just being treated as two completely separate services with completely different pricing policies from the two operators.

 

[Busaholic]

Instead of the conspiracy theory, I should think it is more like that this route (which is really shopping excursions rather than a joint bus 'service') is just being treated as two completely separate services with completely different pricing policies from the two operators.

What conspiracy theory? When Cornwall (or, more accurately, the central and western parts which still had decent bus services) was effectively divided between First and Western Greyhound, the administrators for the latter found in their report that WG was treated totally differently by Cornwall Council for remuneration purposes: indeed, it may be the case they still 'owe' the administrators hundreds of thousands of pounds. It's all in their reports.

 

[Bwsbro]

When both Lloyds Coaches and Express Motors operated the TrawsCymru T2 Service both operators charged different fares. With Lloyds prices higher for local journeys whilst Express Motors maximum fare was hire for the full distance.

Both companies stated that the different prices were charged due to competition rules, stating that both companies weren’t allowed to charge the same price for a fear of a monopoly

 

[swt class 450]

That's interesting to hear. I would of though that the Welsh Government would set the fares for the Traws Cymru contracts. Any idea if Gwynfor Coaches and Lloyds Coaches (who now both operate the T2 jointly) charge different fares? Or do they now charge the same fares?

 

[Busaholic]

When both Lloyds Coaches and Express Motors operated the TrawsCymru T2 Service both operators charged different fares. With Lloyds prices higher for local journeys whilst Express Motors maximum fare was hire for the full distance.

Both companies stated that the different prices were charged due to competition rules, stating that both companies weren’t allowed to charge the same price for a fear of a monopoly

It's untrue that they were not ALLOWED to charge the same fare: it's just that, if they both charged the same fares, they could be suspected of collusion i.e. operating a cartel. In view of what happened later with Express, they'd probably rather be accused of a cartel!