jonesy3001
Established Member
Are the FLEX trains being refurbished before they hand them to the TOCs?
That's because they were prepared for and intensively used on very busy services. Northern have a lot to learn about providing trains suitable for large volumes of passengers.With the current state of Northern’s recently “refurbished” units we probably won’t notice much improvement...
There is one thing. Travelling on a packed ex Thameslink (?) Northern 319 the other day I noticed the standing provision was much better than on Northern,s 15xs. Handrails extending down from the parcel shelves, vertical poles extending upwards from the seat backs to the ceiling. Much better, I hope that stuff is retained when the are refurbed.
driving trailers are fitted with one engine each. All the traction equipment is in the pantograph car, 2x motors per bogie, 4 powered axles.So obviousness the Class 769 are 4 car units. How many of those cars are powered cars and in total how many powered axles are there?
driving trailers are fitted with one engine each. All the traction equipment is in the pantograph car, 2x motors per bogie, 4 powered axles.
Thats two 390kw (523hp) engines to full 4 cars so performance on diesel prob not too exhilarating. The doner 319 weigh in at around 145 tons.Thanks for the help.
if the ultimate aim of these units is to work 2* 14x/15x diagrams then it's unlikely these units will ever see much above 90mph anyway.they'll spend most of the time on semi rural routes at no more than 75mph, with the extra being used at mainline connection to improve pathing and reduce blockages.Thats two 390kw (523hp) engines to full 4 cars so performance on diesel prob not too exhilarating. The doner 319 weigh in at around 145 tons.
At a guess with engines fuel etc say 150 tons the 769s will be around 7hp a ton which is same as a 150.
May be of interest.
K
The same 4 powered axles as before, in the central power car with the pantograph/transformer. There are two engines, one in each driving vehicle, but they are not in the same location as the traction motors (and therefore powered axles)
Thats two 390kw (523hp) engines to full 4 cars so performance on diesel prob not too exhilarating. The doner 319 weigh in at around 145 tons.
At a guess with engines fuel etc say 150 tons the 769s will be around 7hp a ton which is same as a 150.
May be of interest.
K
Thank you for that. Are the routes that these trains are going to be used on hilly or flat as extreme hills like the Lickey or even the Devon Banks such as the climb from Exeter St Davids to Exeter central could certainly be an issue. Of course those two engines supply power to the middle car which then of course means that they don't contribute to adhesion.
The TfW ones due in South Wales may have more of a challenge at the top end of the Valleys.
The Northern routes targeted for 769s are quite flat, but the GWR versions will be on the North Downs line which undulates quite a bit around Dorking.
The Thames Valley branches are flat and low-speed.
None of them are planned to go up the Lickey or over the Devon banks.
I guess some of Northern's might find their way across the Pennines from time to time.
The TfW ones due in South Wales may have more of a challenge at the top end of the Valleys.
The main difference being that the full power of the diesel engines, (less generator/traction electronics losses) will be available at the wheels at all speeds from standstill upwards, and its use only limited by adhesion. With a hydraulic transmission as found on class 150s, power available at the wheel is limited by transmission efficiency until the input/output speeds are more equal. When the diesel engine is run at low speeds there is torque available. It has been suggested here that the 769s, despite having a slightly lower power to weight ratio then the 150s, will have better acceleration - maybe at speeds up to around 40-50mph. When they are running under OLE, of course there is no contestThats two 390kw (523hp) engines to full 4 cars so performance on diesel prob not too exhilarating. The doner 319 weigh in at around 145 tons.
At a guess with engines fuel etc say 150 tons the 769s will be around 7hp a ton which is same as a 150.
May be of interest.
K
Thought Buxton was one of the planned 769 routes for Northern?
The main difference being that the full power of the diesel engines, (less generator/traction electronics losses) will be available at the wheels at all speeds from standstill upwards, and its use only limited by adhesion. With a hydraulic transmission as found on class 150s, power available at the wheel is limited by transmission efficiency until the input/output speeds are more equal. When the diesel engine is run at low speeds there is torque available. It has been suggested here that the 369s, despite having a slightly lower power to weight ratio then the 150s, will have better acceleration - maybe at speeds up to around 40-50mph. When they are running under OLE, of course there is no contest
I thought Buxton is supposed to start sharing units with the Mid-Cheshire when Northern get their act together.Thought Buxton was one of the planned 769 routes for Northern?
whilst the number off driven axles are important as is the weight off the overall train along with driven axle weightAlthough surely the added weight of the engines that are not contributing to adhesion would limit this acceleration even more? For example a 2 car 150 has 4 powered axles for two cars so 50% of the weight is on powered axles, however, as previously mentioned by other after my question regarding this issue, the 769's only have 4 powered axles for 4 cars. So less than 25% of the weight will be on powered axles seeing as the engines are at either end and the motor car is in the middle.
whilst the number off driven axles are important as is the weight off the overall train along with driven axle weight
it not all that important in the grand sceme off things you have more than enough weigh and grip to power the motor coach
you have perhaps 60% power to the motor coach on diesel as compared to a 319 on electric
you will also have an additional say 20 tonnes extra dead weight again not a problem
yes the unit will be perhaps 5-7% less efficient because its dragging an extra say 20 tonnes about but no big deal
in all but the worst adhesion situations no problem will exist
assuming a 319 is perhaps 38 tonnes on a motor coach it will happily power the say 150-170 tonnes with engines off a 769 compared to a diesel loco with perhaps double the axle weight but asked to haul around 500 -700tonnes with minimal wheelslip under normal day to day opperation
The class 319/4 weighs approximately as follows:whilst the number off driven axles are important as is the weight off the overall train along with driven axle weight
it not all that important in the grand sceme off things you have more than enough weigh and grip to power the motor coach
you have perhaps 60% power to the motor coach on diesel as compared to a 319 on electric
you will also have an additional say 20 tonnes extra dead weight again not a problem
yes the unit will be perhaps 5-7% less efficient because its dragging an extra say 20 tonnes about but no big deal
in all but the worst adhesion situations no problem will exist
assuming a 319 is perhaps 38 tonnes on a motor coach it will happily power the say 150-170 tonnes with engines off a 769 compared to a diesel loco with perhaps double the axle weight but asked to haul around 500 -700tonnes with minimal wheelslip under normal day to day opperation