A chat about Northern with the Mayor of Greater Manchester

[Mathew S]

Yes. Even with the increase I still don’t think my GM Countycard season ticket is expensive compared to the cost of driving from Wigan to Manchester each day.

I would pay a bit more for a guaranteed seat on a decent modern train that actually got me to Manchester on time so I didn’t miss my bus most days. I may be in a minority there though...

If you are, it's a minority of at least two

 

[talltim]

Working in Manchester I hear this from colleagues from other regions all the time. The problem is that every day rail congestion in central Manchester is affecting the wider Northern rail network in Yorkshire, Lancashire and even Merseyside though.

And other TOCs services all around the country. Delay the Liverpool-Norwich service through Mancester and that affects many other services. For example it usually delays an EMT train to London and a XC service to Plymouth at Sheffield, and thats just the one I get to see

 

[yorkie]

To discuss the history of why electrification stopped at Ormskirk please use this thread: https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...ctrification-ended-at-these-locations.175504/

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Sorry, it seems I wasn't clear. I agree that's an obvious non-starter for all sorts of reasons. What I meant was TfGM specifying the elements that operate within GM. A purely hypothetical example might perhaps be that all services within GM must carry a second member of staff on board; or specifying certain frequencies on certain routes. Without wanting to put words into the Mayor's mouth, I think that's the kind of thing we're talking about.

That sort of thing would only work if TfGM were happy to incur the costs of the extra staffing/services or fare increases to pay for them.
Burnham is typical of politicians who make demands but don't have to pay for them.
The devolution of finances is one of the tricky things the government is very reluctant to do, though a formula has been found for Scotland and Wales.
And if northern residents don't want GM dictating their services, it's what already happens with Transport for Wales services in Cheshire and elsewhere.
Whether they like it or not, Cardiff is in charge of a chunk of their rail services, even those at GM stations.

 

[DarloRich]

A good and informative piece. Well done for getting and then sharing the interview

 

[Meole]

2 minutes before any adverse on Northern ?

 

[js1000]

Operationally there would be big question marks if TfGM were allowed to take over some of the Northern services. Which services/paths would be altered/sacrificed that would affect other PTEs. The problem for other PTEs in the north is that what TfGM asks for it generally gets as the largest PTE in the north. And I sense the government would be open to the idea of some devolution of rail services to TfGM a la TfL Rail. They are extremely supportive of Greater Manchester in regards to devolution.

The region already has a solidified revenue farebox from Metrolink and partly owning Manchester Airport that could be reinvested in the rail network in the area. Not to mention Greater Manchester's road network is crumbling so drastic action is needed. It has developed into a European city but transport infrastructure has not. It's not as absurd as it seems - the necessary conditions are there.

 

[jayah]

His comments are deeper than simple platitudes which is good. But there remain the questions:

1. If the railways were nationalised (whatever that actually means);
2. If suburban services were devolved to City Mayors (of course, that raises its own issues since there are few services that operate only within Greater Manchester);
3. If Burnham had more powers;
4. If abellio had no role;

... in view of the issues in May 2018 (late delivery of infrastructure works, the aged fleet, the whole DOO issue, need for staff training on routes and stock);

Would it have been any different?

Burnham is in the pay of the rails unions so he is totally conflicted over the issue. The obvious line on said unions packing in the strike won't be uttered.

He talks of nationalisation and more control but he opposite number in London hasn't ended industrial action. However it isn't as bad when one side isn't being bankrolled by DfT (Northern) to not compromise.

 

[Andrew Holland]

Which radio station was this interview on?

 

[Mathew S]

A good and informative piece. Well done for getting and then sharing the interview

Thank you.

Which radio station was this interview on?

A local station in central Manchester who I do some freelance stuff for; but I believe it was also made available to IRN* for wider distribution. As I've said, though, the Northern segment was tagged on at the end; the main interview was about other things (specifically Brexit, homelessness/housing policy, hate crime, and "Fast Track Cities") that were more relevant to the station's audience.

* IRN (Independent Radio News) is a commercial venture jointly owned by the big radio groups in the UK which provides a news service to the vast majority of non-BBC UK radio stations. It is operated by Sky News from their base in London.

 

[Andrew Holland]

Thank you.

A local station in central Manchester who I do some freelance stuff for; but I believe it was also made available to IRN* for wider distribution. As I've said, though, the Northern segment was tagged on at the end; the main interview was about other things (specifically Brexit, homelessness/housing policy, hate crime, and "Fast Track Cities") that were more relevant to the station's audience.

* IRN (Independent Radio News) is a commercial venture jointly owned by the big radio groups in the UK which provides a news service to the vast majority of non-BBC UK radio stations. It is operated by Sky News from their base in London.

I'm trying to guess which local station this would be (I live in Greater Manchester), sounds interesting! Any chance of a hint please?

 

[kieron]

Burnham is in the pay of the rails unions so he is totally conflicted over the issue. The obvious line on said unions packing in the strike won't be uttered.

For anyone interested in Andy Burnham's view of the Northern strike, there's a statement he and Steve Rotheram made previously here.

My understanding of this statement (it's a bit long to quote) is that he would have liked that week's strke to be called off, and would like a review of how Northern will ensure that their DCO proposal does not make it harder to use their trains at remote unstaffed stations.

 

[Starmill]

Burnham is in the pay of the rails unions so he is totally conflicted over the issue.

Er, what are you on about?

 

[jayah]

Er, what are you on about?

Burnham is in the pay of ASLEF / RMT and therefore has a massive conflict of interest on this subject.

 

[Mathew S]

Burnham is in the pay of ASLEF / RMT and therefore has a massive conflict of interest on this subject.

I think @Starmill was wondering - as am I, frankly - in what way be is "in the pay of ASLEF/RMT". Don't suppose you've evidence to back that claim up per chance?

 

[krus_aragon]

At a guess, it may be that Andy Burnham is from the Labour party, which is supported by trade unions. But that overlooks the fact that the RMT hasn't been affiliated to the Labour party for over a decade, and that the Rail unions haven't held back from striking under Labour governments in the past.

 

[Mathew S]

At a guess, it may be that Andy Burnham is from the Labour party, which is supported by trade unions. But that overlooks the fact that the RMT hasn't been affiliated to the Labour party for over a decade, and that the Rail unions haven't held back from striking under Labour governments in the past.

That's a fair point. I've just looked, and he has received £2,000 from Aslef and nothing at all from the RMT. To put that figure into perspective, the total donations were more than £125,000. I don't imagine that buys Aslef any influence at all.
All the information is on the Greater Manchester Combined Authority website.

 

[jayah]

That's a fair point. I've just looked, and he has received £2,000 from Aslef and nothing at all from the RMT. To put that figure into perspective, the total donations were more than £125,000. I don't imagine that buys Aslef any influence at all.
All the information is on the Greater Manchester Combined Authority website.

That must be why all these different unions give all this money to all these MPs - for nothing.

Like most Labour MPs he is completely captured by the Trade Unions and his position on the strike and who is to blame are almost the same as theirs.

 

[Mathew S]

That must be why all these different unions give all this money to all these MPs - for nothing.

Like most Labour MPs he is completely captured by the Trade Unions and his position on the strike and who is to blame are almost the same as theirs.

@jayah I spend an annoying amount of my working life talking to politicians. I have never met any one of them - with the possible exception of Ken Clarke - less beholden to interest groups (such as trade unions) than Andy Burnham. Just because a politician gets donations from unions does not mean he does anything to favour those unions that he/his party wouldn't have done anyway.
I suspect nothing I can say is going to change your point of view one iota but if you can point to anything at all pro-union that AB has done while he's been Mayor of GM I'll be amazed; because I certainly can't.

 

[jayah]

@jayah I spend an annoying amount of my working life talking to politicians. I have never met any one of them - with the possible exception of Ken Clarke - less beholden to interest groups (such as trade unions) than Andy Burnham. Just because a politician gets donations from unions does not mean he does anything to favour those unions that he/his party wouldn't have done anyway.
I suspect nothing I can say is going to change your point of view one iota but if you can point to anything at all pro-union that AB has done while he's been Mayor of GM I'll be amazed; because I certainly can't.

Has he ever condemned the union calling these strikes?

Has he ever condemned the basis for these strikes?

His position on the strikes is little different from that of the unions and a million miles away from those of the travelling public and his electors.

Personally I am sympathetic to some of those arguments, but he is both in the pay of unions and completely at odds with the voters.

 

[Mogster]

I’m far from being an AB supporter but in the statement above he does suggest the RMT should suspend the strikes while Northern provide more detail about how DCO/DOO will actually work.

 

[jayah]

I’m far from being an AB supporter but in the statement above he does suggest the RMT should suspend the strikes while Northern provide more detail about how DCO/DOO will actually work.

He spent the first 4 para basically stating the union position about keeping guards on trains.

He then mentions unacceptable disruption caused by the emergency timetable - as though it had nothing to do with the Unions only the company.

Somewhere near the very end there is a very vague watery statement suggesting that it would be better to talk. No condemnation.

 

[jayah]

@jayah I spend an annoying amount of my working life talking to politicians. I have never met any one of them - with the possible exception of Ken Clarke - less beholden to interest groups (such as trade unions) than Andy Burnham. Just because a politician gets donations from unions does not mean he does anything to favour those unions that he/his party wouldn't have done anyway.
I suspect nothing I can say is going to change your point of view one iota but if you can point to anything at all pro-union that AB has done while he's been Mayor of GM I'll be amazed; because I certainly can't.

Ken Clarke has got into all sorts of trouble during his political career taking far out positions on tobacco despite having so many interests it is hard to tell where Ken ends and the tobacco industry begins.

 

[6Gman]

He spent the first 4 para basically stating the union position about keeping guards on trains.

He then mentions unacceptable disruption caused by the emergency timetable - as though it had nothing to do with the Unions only the company.

Somewhere near the very end there is a very vague watery statement suggesting that it would be better to talk. No condemnation.

This could be because of that £2,000 from ASLEF (who, of course, are not party to the current dispute).

Or it could simply be ... that he agrees with the RMT's position (despite receiving no funding from them).

 

[Mathew S]

Thanks all for your responses about the interview. While I concentrate on other things, such as the ever entertaining task of trying to nail down the Northern press office, I'm bowing out of the discussion.
M

 

[jayah]

This could be because of that £2,000 from ASLEF (who, of course, are not party to the current dispute).

Or it could simply be ... that he agrees with the RMT's position (despite receiving no funding from them).

Then he should be honest about it instead of hiding behind weasel words like the emergency timetable causing unacceptable disruption.

One of the biggest issues facing Manchester right now and the Mayor wants to say as little as possible for fear of upsetting his union paymasters or taking a wildly divergent position to the electorate.

Sadly the media seem to be letting him get away with it.

 

[furnessvale]

Thanks all for your responses about the interview. While I concentrate on other things, such as the ever entertaining task of trying to nail down the Northern press office, I'm bowing out of the discussion.
M

I should think nailing down the RMT is an even harder task, but do you even try?

 

[RPM]

If you were to replace the word "Northern" with "DfT" in Burnham's responses, then most of what he says would be pretty reasonable. This pretence that all the woes are down to greedy private TOCs is a distortion of the truth. The TOCs by and large do the DfT's bidding. But it is so convenient for the political class to have this insulating layer between them and the mess their ilk have imposed on the railway.

 

[Mathew S]

I should think nailing down the RMT is an even harder task, but do you even try?

Yes. Actually the RMT are very approachable and, last time I spoke to them put me in touch with one of their regional officials who couldn't do enough to help. I have never had any issues getting what I need from the RMT, with Northern it's like getting blood from a stone.

 

[6Gman]

Then he should be honest about it instead of hiding behind weasel words like the emergency timetable causing unacceptable disruption.

One of the biggest issues facing Manchester right now and the Mayor wants to say as little as possible for fear of upsetting his union paymasters or taking a wildly divergent position to the electorate.

Sadly the media seem to be letting him get away with it.

I'm no fan of Burnham, nor of the RMT ... but my comments were in response to your claim that he was "owned by" (which I think was one of the phrases you used) the rail unions.

And regarding the highlighted remark above do you have any evidence of his receiving funding from the RMT in his current role?