Class 710 LO

[anamyd]

Yours is not a new opinion; it's been covered on this thread. We all agree it's a shambles. If you want your views to count, a quick search can find the Bombardier Transportation UK contact details. I'm sure they've got an operator waiting to take your call.

"Bombardier Transportation UK, how can I help...?"
"Hello, why are your trains so *bleep*...?"
"That is not a question I can answer over the phone, however if you give us your address we'll be able to get a letter sent out to you".

 

[AS43]

Not what you see every day in the (unelectrified!) Broxbourne tamper siding... 710269.

 

[railfanatic]

Not what you see every day in the (unelectrified!) Broxbourne tamper siding... 710269.View attachment 58291

I was on it last night, no comments on how it got there!!

 

[railfanatic]

This was from last night; Liverpool Street, platform 10.

 

[332 > 444]

Not what you see every day in the (unelectrified!) Broxbourne tamper siding... 710269.View attachment 58291

Someone beat me to it, I just passed it now, didn't realise it's in unelectrified sidings.

 

[AS43]

I was on it last night, no comments on how it got there!!

That's probably for the best . Did it have to be dumped stabled there because of technical issues?

 

[railfanatic]

That's probably for the best . Did it have to be dumped stabled there because of technical issues?

Actually, NO!! The ride was as perfect as it could get!! Let's just say it was a lapse in judgement by someone.

 

[simple simon]

someone who controls points and switch blades?

 

[ijmad]

I originally thought the frontend of the 710 was slightly different to the 345, but I see now it's just a paint job. The 345 seems like it has a 'lip' which I don't really like, but the swish on the Overground paint job totally de-emphasises this and makes it in to a rather good looking machine in my opinion!

 

[Goldfish62]

I originally thought the frontend of the 710 was slightly different to the 345, but I see now it's just a paint job. The 345 seems like it has a 'lip' which I don't really like, but the swish on the Overground paint job totally de-emphasises this and makes it in to a rather good looking machine in my opinion!

The headlight clusters are different.

 

[ijmad]

The headlight clusters are different.

Oh yeah. It looks like the white headlight is recessed on the 710 whereas it's flush on the 345. Is that right? Any idea why this is? (LED vs not LED?)

I hadn't really noticed before, but have these trains done away with the practice of having one bright headlight and the offside as just a marker light? It looks like they're the same brightness based on videos, but it's hard to tell for sure. Was that relaxed along with the yellow front end requirement?

 

[Domh245]

Oh yeah. It looks like the white headlight is recessed on the 710 whereas it's flush on the 345. Is that right? Any idea why this is? (LED vs not LED?)

I hadn't really noticed before, but have these trains done away with the practice of having one bright headlight and the offside as just a marker light? It looks like they're the same brightness based on videos, but it's hard to tell for sure. Was that relaxed along with the yellow front end requirement?

The main difference is that the surround has angled edges, rather than semi-circles. Makes them look a little bit more aggressive


As for the lighting thing - the larger lamp is the headlamp and both are illuminated when at the front of the train. The smaller lamp is the marker lamp which are illuminated red when at the rear of the train, and white when in the depot. Since the class 700s the lighting regulation calls for both headlamps to be illuminated rather than one headlamp and one marker lamp, and yes that was at the same time that the yellow front requirement was relaxed.

 

[Sebastian O]

This was from last night; Liverpool Street, platform 10.View attachment 58300

Cracking photo - long exposure?

 

[ijmad]

The main difference is that the surround has angled edges, rather than semi-circles. Makes them look a little bit more aggressive

As for the lighting thing - the larger lamp is the headlamp and both are illuminated when at the front of the train. The smaller lamp is the marker lamp which are illuminated red when at the rear of the train, and white when in the depot. Since the class 700s the lighting regulation calls for both headlamps to be illuminated rather than one headlamp and one marker lamp, and yes that was at the same time that the yellow front requirement was relaxed.

Thanks for that - I had been assuming that was just the paint job but from your photo it's clear it is detail. Am I right that the 345 in your photo seems to be lacking the skirt cowling around the front coupler? In other photos it usually seems present but looks like a slightly different shape to the 710's, although that again might just be paintwork.

 

[samuelmorris]

In that comparison, yes the front valance is missing.

 

[Domh245]

Thanks for that - I had been assuming that was just the paint job but from your photo it's clear it is detail. Am I right that the 345 in your photo seems to be lacking the skirt cowling around the front coupler? In other photos it usually seems present but looks like a slightly different shape to the 710's, although that again might just be paintwork.

Full disclosure - not my photo, although the green arrows are mine! But yes, the valance is missing off the 345 and it does have a different shape, the 345 has a horizontal piece under the coupler, which the 710 doesn't seem to have

 

[alholmes]

Yes it is although one wonders how long it will be before due to some slight late running or unit failure Platforms 10A or 11 get used instead.

There used to be a daily LO service just after the evening peak which terminated in platform 11, which I believe then returned empty to Willesden. It was certainly running about two years ago, but I don’t believe any LO service operates into that platform now.

 

[Class 170101]

There used to be a daily LO service just after the evening peak which terminated in platform 11, which I believe then returned empty to Willesden. It was certainly running about two years ago, but I don’t believe any LO service operates into that platform now.

One or two services per day is one thing, but with the Stratford to Angel Road / Meridian Water coming along soon, this will see even more demand for trains to use Platforms 11 and 12. Plus also the ECS moves to / from Orient Way CS between the paks and early morning and late at night, these are going to be on a busy piece of track soon.

 

[railfanatic]

Cracking photo - long exposure?

Yes, 0.25 seconds with HDR on

 

[keirlawson]

Letter posted by our Local Councillor Clyde Loakes in Waltham forest on the topic (from TfL)

I’m writing following our email earlier this month about the ongoing disruption and inconvenience to customers using the Gospel Oak to Barking line.

We are sorry about the continuing delays to the introduction of the new trains. We, along with the Mayor and Deputy Mayor, are continuing to press the manufacturer, Bombardier Transportation, to do all they can to bring them into service.

Unfortunately, Bombardier has still not been able to fix the software problems that are causing the delays. We do not yet have a date for when the new trains will be ready for driver training to start, so we are implementing contingency plans to maintain a service on the line.

As you may know, we have twice extended the lease on the current diesel trains to cover the delay to the new trains. At the end of this week, one of the six remaining diesel trains will be released for use elsewhere in the country. A further two will leave in mid-February, with the final three following in mid-March.

What this means for your service

To ensure continuity of service while we continue to wait for the new trains to arrive, we have decided to modify three of our existing electric trains used elsewhere on the Overground network for temporary use on the Gospel Oak to Barking Line, meaning customers should continue to see a full timetable on the line at this point. These trains are currently used as spare trains. While we will still be able to provide a full timetabled service elsewhere on the Overground, we will have fewer spare trains to restore the service if there are any travel disruptions.

These modified electric trains will have four walk-through carriages, offering around double the capacity of the diesel trains. In the same way as they have been doing for the current diesel trains, Bombardier will deliver an enhanced maintenance programme for the modified electric trains to ensure maximum reliability in this interim period.

Looking ahead

If Bombardier does not have the new trains ready for passenger service before the last diesel trains have been released in mid-March, we will unfortunately need to reduce the weekday service on the Gospel Oak to Barking Line to two trains per hour – though given the modified electric trains can carry twice as many passengers as the existing trains, there should be adequate capacity for anyone wishing to travel along this route.

We will also need to look at further reducing the weekend service to carry out essential maintenance on these trains, but we will work hard to minimise the impact of this. We may also offer a supplementary bus service if it is needed and will keep customers informed via local and social media, posters, station announcements and journey planner.

We are sorry for the inconvenience this likely reduction in frequency will cause and apologise for the disruption and uncertainty customers on the Gospel Oak to Barking line have experienced due to the delay in the new trains becoming available.

The Mayor has spoken directly with Bombardier and asked them to fund a month’s free travel to customers on the Gospel Oak to Barking line when the new trains are fully introduced, however, we recognise that this is no substitute for a fully-functioning service. We will provide more detail on how this will work closer to the time.

We will keep you and our customers updated, but in the meantime, please do get in contact if you have any questions. Please be assured that we will continue to do all we can to minimise disruption for our customers.

 

[Railperf]

Noticed an unfortunate 710 sitting at Willesden TMD has been daubed with graffitti ..'test train...test vandalism' !!!!

 

[railfanatic]

Noticed an unfortunate 710 sitting at Willesden TMD has been daubed with graffitti ..'test train...test vandalism' !!!!

Oh no!! Bloody vandals.

 

[plcd1]

Colour me not at all surprised at this news. In essence the GOBLIN service likely to be down to half hourly in March and beyond due to delays with the 710s.

https://twitter.com/BBCTomEdwards/status/1090571832632188929

https://twitter.com/BBCTomEdwards/status/1090572081182490624

They can't run those 3 4-car 378s forever without maintenance breaks. The service will be very vulnerable to any failure / breakdown / accident. There are suggestions the weekend service may fall to hourly or be withdrawn completely to allow the 378s to be maintained.

Just listened to the relevant part of today's TfL Board webcast about this. Here are the key points.

- TfL have had to adjust the maintenance schedules on the 378s to support the release of three trains for conversion to 4 car.
- A class 710 is not likely to be available for driver training until the end of February.
- Even if a train is available there is still ongoing software development needed which may take at least a further month. Another software version has to be released and then a train has to go for final ORR certification. This confirms a comment that someone from Rail Magazine made a while back. No timescale was indicated for this process.
- Trains cannot be used in passenger service until the ORR sign off is achieved.
- TfL were pretty clear that all this means the GOBLIN service reduces to half hourly before any 710s enter service.
- There was a final caveat that all of the above is subject to Bombardier's ability to develop software in line with the anticipated schedule.

What a mess.

 

[samuelmorris]

Yes, pretty much exactly as I called though at least better than full bustitution thanks to the redeployment of 378s.

 

[SteveOfTheStow]

Wouldn't be surprised to see the weekend service withdrawn soon rather than later to protect weekdays, sadly.

 

[HLE]

So it's going to be down to half hourly but 4 car. So the same capacity just increased waiting time. Surely the passengers can live with that for a couple of months, and to be fair TFL should take some credit for arranging the 378 stopgap, after all the faults with the 710's aren't down to them.

That's got to be better than no service which was feared, and still better than buses.

 

[ijmad]

So it's going to be down to half hourly but 4 car. So the same capacity just increased waiting time. Surely the passengers can live with that for a couple of months, and to be fair TFL should take some credit for arranging the 378 stopgap, after all the faults with the 710's aren't down to them.

That's got to be better than no service which was feared, and still better than buses.

Same capacity, but considerably less convenient if you just miss a train (or can't board a train -- the line is overcrowded). I think commuters have every right to be rather upset at this. Especially if as @SteveOfTheStow says we see weekend bustitution to cope with the 378 maintenance needs (seems likely).

 

[plcd1]

So it's going to be down to half hourly but 4 car. So the same capacity just increased waiting time. Surely the passengers can live with that for a couple of months, and to be fair TFL should take some credit for arranging the 378 stopgap, after all the faults with the 710's aren't down to them.

That's got to be better than no service which was feared, and still better than buses.

Well it's marginally better than buses but a lot worse than today. Yes the trains are longer and if you're lucky enough that your travel times align with the future timetable then no great issue. Ludicrous, IMO of course, if you just miss a train for whatever reason. No one wants to wait for 30 mins for a train in London when they've had years of a 15 minute service and may well have just alighted from a tube service running every 1-2 minutes. I know I certainly don't and the GOBLIN is a local service for me.

The other problem here is that the timescale for 710s actually carrying passengers remains indeterminate. Even getting one 710 in service may be 2-3 months away with restoration of the full timetable possibly 4-6 months away depending on how well or badly Bombardier perform and how quickly ARL can get drivers trained. We then have the issue of getting 710s tested and signed off for use on DC tracks. I'm not aware that any of the trains at Willesden have done any test runs on DC power / tracks. I assume Bombardier have to demonstrate that dual voltage 710s can run on both power sources and can achieve a switchover (even if not needed for in service runs at this stage - will be needed for the 5 car units). We then have to get the Watford and West Anglia routes converted, get the 378 refresh programme restarted and then prepare for the second batch of LO 710s to turn up for NLL / WLL duties. Somewhere in between all that a few hundred units have to built, delivered, tested and handed over to other TOCs. So no great issue.

 

[Peter Sarf]

Well it's marginally better than buses but a lot worse than today. Yes the trains are longer and if you're lucky enough that your travel times align with the future timetable then no great issue. Ludicrous, IMO of course, if you just miss a train for whatever reason. No one wants to wait for 30 mins for a train in London when they've had years of a 15 minute service and may well have just alighted from a tube service running every 1-2 minutes. I know I certainly don't and the GOBLIN is a local service for me.

The other problem here is that the timescale for 710s actually carrying passengers remains indeterminate. Even getting one 710 in service may be 2-3 months away with restoration of the full timetable possibly 4-6 months away depending on how well or badly Bombardier perform and how quickly ARL can get drivers trained. We then have the issue of getting 710s tested and signed off for use on DC tracks. I'm not aware that any of the trains at Willesden have done any test runs on DC power / tracks. I assume Bombardier have to demonstrate that dual voltage 710s can run on both power sources and can achieve a switchover (even if not needed for in service runs at this stage - will be needed for the 5 car units). We then have to get the Watford and West Anglia routes converted, get the 378 refresh programme restarted and then prepare for the second batch of LO 710s to turn up for NLL / WLL duties. Somewhere in between all that a few hundred units have to built, delivered, tested and handed over to other TOCs. So no great issue.

A thirty minute frequency will be a lot better than busses as London roads are awfully slow. The halving in frequency is a real nuisance and will reduce the demand somewhat.

I wonder, if the problems will be for so long, will it be worthwhile considering 313s or other AC units (along with all the training etc) ?. Dual voltage units means Willesden can service the Goblin units and of course Willesden will have spare capacity if the 710s are kept out of the way. At the end of the day there are plenty of EMUs becoming spare !. Would it be an incentive to Bombardier if they were told - take your units away and don't send them back until they work (a lot) better.

 

[AlexNL]

will it be worthwhile considering 313s or other AC units (along with all the training etc)

Not unless you manage to fit DOO cameras to the units you're thinking of, or retrofitting all stations along the Goblin with the necessary platform equipment for DOO dispatch, or manage to recruit and train a bunch of guards. All of these options will take months to realise and will cost a lot of money.