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Why are people opposed to HS2? (And other HS2 discussion)

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Bletchleyite

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Yes. It will kinda tick them off won't it though.

Well, it depends. If someone offered to buy my house off me for more than it is worth then I wouldn't mind too much, could have a change of scene. Though it sort of depends on whether you consider your present home as a forever home, I don't really.
 
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BR Boy 125

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Or dig underneath their land which costs even more. If HS2 was just buying and flattening properties in its way the total cost would have been much lower.
Yes well that can't be the case for every property that stands in their way.
 

Meole

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Apparently the Channel 4 programme tomorrow will suggest the project will be cancelled due to costs anyway.
 

si404

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And, if true, yet again, we remain with this pre-Victorian rail alignment as our most major mainline.

We'll probably then spend nearly as much as HS2 would have cost ekeing out an extra path or two by screwing over intermediate stops and doing sticking plaster solutions - just like last time...
 

Modron

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Would a better alternative not be rebuilding the Great Central?

I appreciate that around Leicester it could be difficult to join up the existing route at Leicester North.
 

kylemore

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Perhaps if it had been less grandiose from the start - all classic compatible in order to serve existing terminals and city approaches - did France build vast new city centre terminals when they started to develop the TGV?

The keyword should have been "Incremental".

It's under attack from the Tory brexiteer right and on the left I believe Corbyn and McDonnell would love to use the cash elsewhere whatever they say in public just now.

This is going to be a turbulent year and HS2's chances are about 50/50 of making it through it!
 

Sad Sprinter

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Perhaps if it had been less grandiose from the start - all classic compatible in order to serve existing terminals and city approaches - did France build vast new city centre terminals when they started to develop the TGV?

The keyword should have been "Incremental".

It's under attack from the Tory brexiteer right and on the left I believe Corbyn and McDonnell would love to use the cash elsewhere whatever they say in public just now.

This is going to be a turbulent year and HS2's chances are about 50/50 of making it through it!

I second this, running into existing stations seems like a much better idea. Any capacity problems in existing stations can be freed up by building short Crossrail lines for local trains. Surely that would benefit the region more than a massive high-speed railway station (that wouldn't even allow through running).
 

The Ham

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And, if true, yet again, we remain with this pre-Victorian rail alignment as our most major mainline.

We'll probably then spend nearly as much as HS2 would have cost ekeing out an extra path or two by screwing over intermediate stops and doing sticking plaster solutions - just like last time...

Quite, you also have to bear in mind that if it is cancelled then not only will there be the money already spent on it (circa £3 billion for 2016/17 & 2017/18, plus whatever has been spent in 2018/19 which will probably double that) but there would also be a lot of costs associated with cancelling the contracts already in place.

However even at circa £6bn that's about 20% of the cost of phase 1. Do we really want to throw that money down the drain (if not more) and have next to nothing to show for it?
 

ABB125

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Quite, you also have to bear in mind that if it is cancelled then not only will there be the money already spent on it (circa £3 billion for 2016/17 & 2017/18, plus whatever has been spent in 2018/19 which will probably double that) but there would also be a lot of costs associated with cancelling the contracts already in place.

However even at circa £6bn that's about 20% of the cost of phase 1. Do we really want to throw that money down the drain (if not more) and have next to nothing to show for it?
What do you mean, "next to nothing"? We'll have all the shiny expensive consultants' reports recommending further reports into the findings of the previous report. :D:D:D
 

Ianno87

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I second this, running into existing stations seems like a much better idea. Any capacity problems in existing stations can be freed up by building short Crossrail lines for local trains. Surely that would benefit the region more than a massive high-speed railway station (that wouldn't even allow through running).

Only two platforms at existing Euston can currently take 400m long trains. So it would need a hefty disruptive rebuild anyway, even in your suggestion. So might as well just do it by expanding to add high speed terminal platforms.
 

PR1Berske

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Apparently the Channel 4 programme tomorrow will suggest the project will be cancelled due to costs anyway.
Fantastic news if true. Politicians love being attached to high profile projects but they hate being attached to out of control budgets.

Here's to the best news the railway industry could receive: the death of HS2.
 

Andy25

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Fantastic news if true. Politicians love being attached to high profile projects but they hate being attached to out of control budgets.

Here's to the best news the railway industry could receive: the death of HS2.
From your user name are you from Preston?
 
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And, if true, yet again, we remain with this pre-Victorian rail alignment as our most major mainline.

We'll probably then spend nearly as much as HS2 would have cost ekeing out an extra path or two by screwing over intermediate stops and doing sticking plaster solutions - just like last time...

It would have been better to allow the Luftwaffe to completely destroy the UK rail network in the same way that the RAF and USAAF destroyed the German, Dutch and French network. Then we'd have had to use the Marshall Aid money we got from the USA after the war to rebuild, as the latter three countries did.

Instead we gave the money we got to the UK car industry (amongst others) and encouraged them to build "stuff" to export to the remains of the Empire and elsewhere in a vain attempt to export our way out of the financial disaster that was winning WWII. All we got was more austerity at home, bread rationing into the 1950s and more than 1,000 obsolete steam engines that were then consigned prematurely to the scrapheap.

Oh, and don't forget that we had to pay the USA for all the "war materiel" it provided under Lend-Lease. Every Sherman tank destroyed on the Normandy battlefields had to be paid for eventually by the Exchequer.

I'm no great fan of HS2. I think its a white elephant and a political vanity project designed to line the pockets of those people in industry who bankroll the current political status quo. But - time and time again, we've seen the politicians demonstrate their complete inability to think strategically about what the country needs to keep it moving (they only think as far as the next election). The result has been paralysis and financial constraints applied to major engineering, infrastructure and rolling stock improvement programmes. Politicians are loathe to agree to spend any "public" funds on any project that either (a) isn't guaranteed to deliver a tangible improvement within the term of the current Parliament, or (b) is so grandiose that the benefits won't be seen until well into the next Parliament or even the one after that, so they can threaten the electorate that if they vote the other guys in, they might cancel the project and waste all the money already spent.

I agree that the current network is creaking at the seams, but I don't agree that there's nothing that can be done based around the current infrastructure and shape of the network. Capacity improvements could be achieved in very short order by a programme of platform lengthening and and end to the specification of trains comprised of 2, 3, 4 and 5 carriages. Hell, in many places, the platforms are already long enough to accommodate 12 coach trains, but all they see are inadequate short trains. There should be an end to the mass fascination with multiple unit trains (unless they're through gangwayed and provide an adequate level of comfort for long distance journeys). Bring back loco-haulage and reinstate turnround and release facilities at terminus stations. Look at common practice throughout Europe and the rest of the world. A loco (or two) at the head of a long train when it's busy and a loco at the head of a short train then its less busy (but because the coaches are all compatible and available, they can be added to strengthen the service).

I'm fed up of travelling on Cross Country services that are formed of 2 car multiple units, which are already full when the train pulls in and then subject my ears to the constant drone of an engine beneath my feet. It was a pleasure to use a HST on the Midland Main Line last summer instead of a ghastly Meridian, because I could relax into a soft seat and not be assailed by the constant revving of an overstressed diesel engine below the floor. And don't get me started on the poo-ridden Voyagers.

So, cancel HS2 and spend the money on more proper trains. Thanks.
 

Andy25

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157
It would have been better to allow the Luftwaffe to completely destroy the UK rail network in the same way that the RAF and USAAF destroyed the German, Dutch and French network. Then we'd have had to use the Marshall Aid money we got from the USA after the war to rebuild, as the latter three countries did.

Instead we gave the money we got to the UK car industry (amongst others) and encouraged them to build "stuff" to export to the remains of the Empire and elsewhere in a vain attempt to export our way out of the financial disaster that was winning WWII. All we got was more austerity at home, bread rationing into the 1950s and more than 1,000 obsolete steam engines that were then consigned prematurely to the scrapheap.

Oh, and don't forget that we had to pay the USA for all the "war materiel" it provided under Lend-Lease. Every Sherman tank destroyed on the Normandy battlefields had to be paid for eventually by the Exchequer.

I'm no great fan of HS2. I think its a white elephant and a political vanity project designed to line the pockets of those people in industry who bankroll the current political status quo. But - time and time again, we've seen the politicians demonstrate their complete inability to think strategically about what the country needs to keep it moving (they only think as far as the next election). The result has been paralysis and financial constraints applied to major engineering, infrastructure and rolling stock improvement programmes. Politicians are loathe to agree to spend any "public" funds on any project that either (a) isn't guaranteed to deliver a tangible improvement within the term of the current Parliament, or (b) is so grandiose that the benefits won't be seen until well into the next Parliament or even the one after that, so they can threaten the electorate that if they vote the other guys in, they might cancel the project and waste all the money already spent.

I agree that the current network is creaking at the seams, but I don't agree that there's nothing that can be done based around the current infrastructure and shape of the network. Capacity improvements could be achieved in very short order by a programme of platform lengthening and and end to the specification of trains comprised of 2, 3, 4 and 5 carriages. Hell, in many places, the platforms are already long enough to accommodate 12 coach trains, but all they see are inadequate short trains. There should be an end to the mass fascination with multiple unit trains (unless they're through gangwayed and provide an adequate level of comfort for long distance journeys). Bring back loco-haulage and reinstate turnround and release facilities at terminus stations. Look at common practice throughout Europe and the rest of the world. A loco (or two) at the head of a long train when it's busy and a loco at the head of a short train then its less busy (but because the coaches are all compatible and available, they can be added to strengthen the service).

I'm fed up of travelling on Cross Country services that are formed of 2 car multiple units, which are already full when the train pulls in and then subject my ears to the constant drone of an engine beneath my feet. It was a pleasure to use a HST on the Midland Main Line last summer instead of a ghastly Meridian, because I could relax into a soft seat and not be assailed by the constant revving of an overstressed diesel engine below the floor. And don't get me started on the poo-ridden Voyagers.

So, cancel HS2 and spend the money on more proper trains. Thanks.
You do realise the government doesn't buy the trains??
 

Andy25

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157
Yes, I am.
So what do you think will happen to capacity at Preston Station over the next 10 years?

HS2 wil take pressure off a lot of journeys and it's not as if there's room to expand the station much.

And with HS2 NPR rail makes more senelse and that will take even more pressure off from all the Liverpool through to Leeds journeys.
 

PR1Berske

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So what do you think will happen to capacity at Preston Station over the next 10 years?

HS2 wil take pressure off a lot of journeys and it's not as if there's room to expand the station much.

And with HS2 NPR rail makes more senelse and that will take even more pressure off from all the Liverpool through to Leeds journeys.

Over the next ten years, HS2 will be built between London Euston and Birmingham. It won't do a thing to help Preston.

Over the next ten years, money that should go to us in the North will continue to be sucked into London.

"It's not as though there's room to expand the station," is not relevant. Congestion isn't a problem at Preston, and the length of the platforms allows for different trains to depart from different ends, anyway. HS2 has no role to play in Preston.
 

cjmillsnun

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It would have been better to allow the Luftwaffe to completely destroy the UK rail network in the same way that the RAF and USAAF destroyed the German, Dutch and French network. Then we'd have had to use the Marshall Aid money we got from the USA after the war to rebuild, as the latter three countries did.

Instead we gave the money we got to the UK car industry (amongst others) and encouraged them to build "stuff" to export to the remains of the Empire and elsewhere in a vain attempt to export our way out of the financial disaster that was winning WWII. All we got was more austerity at home, bread rationing into the 1950s and more than 1,000 obsolete steam engines that were then consigned prematurely to the scrapheap.

Oh, and don't forget that we had to pay the USA for all the "war materiel" it provided under Lend-Lease. Every Sherman tank destroyed on the Normandy battlefields had to be paid for eventually by the Exchequer.

I'm no great fan of HS2. I think its a white elephant and a political vanity project designed to line the pockets of those people in industry who bankroll the current political status quo. But - time and time again, we've seen the politicians demonstrate their complete inability to think strategically about what the country needs to keep it moving (they only think as far as the next election). The result has been paralysis and financial constraints applied to major engineering, infrastructure and rolling stock improvement programmes. Politicians are loathe to agree to spend any "public" funds on any project that either (a) isn't guaranteed to deliver a tangible improvement within the term of the current Parliament, or (b) is so grandiose that the benefits won't be seen until well into the next Parliament or even the one after that, so they can threaten the electorate that if they vote the other guys in, they might cancel the project and waste all the money already spent.

I agree that the current network is creaking at the seams, but I don't agree that there's nothing that can be done based around the current infrastructure and shape of the network. Capacity improvements could be achieved in very short order by a programme of platform lengthening and and end to the specification of trains comprised of 2, 3, 4 and 5 carriages. Hell, in many places, the platforms are already long enough to accommodate 12 coach trains, but all they see are inadequate short trains. There should be an end to the mass fascination with multiple unit trains (unless they're through gangwayed and provide an adequate level of comfort for long distance journeys). Bring back loco-haulage and reinstate turnround and release facilities at terminus stations. Look at common practice throughout Europe and the rest of the world. A loco (or two) at the head of a long train when it's busy and a loco at the head of a short train then its less busy (but because the coaches are all compatible and available, they can be added to strengthen the service).

I'm fed up of travelling on Cross Country services that are formed of 2 car multiple units, which are already full when the train pulls in and then subject my ears to the constant drone of an engine beneath my feet. It was a pleasure to use a HST on the Midland Main Line last summer instead of a ghastly Meridian, because I could relax into a soft seat and not be assailed by the constant revving of an overstressed diesel engine below the floor. And don't get me started on the poo-ridden Voyagers.

So, cancel HS2 and spend the money on more proper trains. Thanks.

So what does Europe do?

Germany - ICE 3 AKA Siemens Velaro. Multiple units - not through gangwayed.
France - TGV - Officially classed as EMUs because they can work in multiple although layout is twin power cars of fixed length.
Spain - High speed = EMUs (although most are twin power cars of fixed length)
Italy - Pendolino multiple units.
 

Bletchleyite

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Over the next ten years, HS2 will be built between London Euston and Birmingham. It won't do a thing to help Preston.

Over the next ten years, money that should go to us in the North will continue to be sucked into London.

"It's not as though there's room to expand the station," is not relevant. Congestion isn't a problem at Preston, and the length of the platforms allows for different trains to depart from different ends, anyway. HS2 has no role to play in Preston.

It will give you a slightly faster and more reliable London service?
 

PR1Berske

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It will give you a slightly faster and more reliable London service?
We've gone through this numerous times. There's no guarantee at all that it will improve things up here. On the current timeframe it'll only go to Birmingham. That doesn't help Preston at all. As we've said time and time again, places on the WCML, including Preston, could lose direct services as s result of HS2.

Anyway, as I've repeated time and time again; I'm not going to use HS2, not one inch, and just as you are passionate about it delivering results, I'm passionate about it being a total waste of money.
 

mmh

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We've gone through this numerous times. There's no guarantee at all that it will improve things up here. On the current timeframe it'll only go to Birmingham. That doesn't help Preston at all. As we've said time and time again, places on the WCML, including Preston, could lose direct services as s result of HS2.

Anyway, as I've repeated time and time again; I'm not going to use HS2, not one inch, and just as you are passionate about it delivering results, I'm passionate about it being a total waste of money.

He's being disingenuous by saying it'll give Preston a "slightly faster and more reliable London service" though. He's not passionate about that as a result, he's passionate about it because HS2 is about giving himself a faster and more reliable service to London, as he's often admitted.

In a way I admire that honesty - if more people realised the only reason for HS2 is for more commuter trains between Milton Keynes and London it would be even less popular with the public. Hopefully this weekend's rumour that politicians have started to see it as an enormous white elephant is true and it'll be cancelled before any more time and money's wasted on it.
 

Ianno87

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We've gone through this numerous times. There's no guarantee at all that it will improve things up here. On the current timeframe it'll only go to Birmingham. That doesn't help Preston at all. As we've said time and time again, places on the WCML, including Preston, could lose direct services as s result of HS2.

Anyway, as I've repeated time and time again; I'm not going to use HS2, not one inch, and just as you are passionate about it delivering results, I'm passionate about it being a total waste of money.

You seem to be passionate about ignoring people explaining basics of HS2 to you again and again and again, and why your first paragraph is completely wrong.

I can't be bothered any more.
 

Ianno87

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He's being disingenuous by saying it'll give Preston a "slightly faster and more reliable London service" though. He's not passionate about that as a result, he's passionate about it because HS2 is about giving himself a faster and more reliable service to London, as he's often admitted.

In a way I admire that honesty - if more people realised the only reason for HS2 is for more commuter trains between Milton Keynes and London it would be even less popular with the public. Hopefully this weekend's rumour that politicians have started to see it as an enormous white elephant is true and it'll be cancelled before any more time and money's wasted on it.

Yes, it gives more trains between MK etc. and Euston *and* faster, higher capacity trains to the north. Why is that a bad thing?
 

The Planner

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I agree that the current network is creaking at the seams, but I don't agree that there's nothing that can be done based around the current infrastructure and shape of the network. Capacity improvements could be achieved in very short order by a programme of platform lengthening and and end to the specification of trains comprised of 2, 3, 4 and 5 carriages. Hell, in many places, the platforms are already long enough to accommodate 12 coach trains, but all they see are inadequate short trains. There should be an end to the mass fascination with multiple unit trains (unless they're through gangwayed and provide an adequate level of comfort for long distance journeys). Bring back loco-haulage and reinstate turnround and release facilities at terminus stations. Look at common practice throughout Europe and the rest of the world. A loco (or two) at the head of a long train when it's busy and a loco at the head of a short train then its less busy (but because the coaches are all compatible and available, they can be added to strengthen the service).

I'm fed up of travelling on Cross Country services that are formed of 2 car multiple units, which are already full when the train pulls in and then subject my ears to the constant drone of an engine beneath my feet. It was a pleasure to use a HST on the Midland Main Line last summer instead of a ghastly Meridian, because I could relax into a soft seat and not be assailed by the constant revving of an overstressed diesel engine below the floor. And don't get me started on the poo-ridden Voyagers.

So, cancel HS2 and spend the money on more proper trains. Thanks.
That was quite a reasonable post until it descended into the standard misty eyed unit hating, loco hauled bit. I will ask again as no one has answered it yet. What do you do, if growth continues even at a slowed rate, when the extended trains become full?
 
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