What's the point in ticket barriers at stations?

[ForTheLoveOf]

I think that is rather concerning, I've seen instances of people getting trapped and staff have been able to intervene quickly and what if there is some sort of emergency and the station has to be evacuated? Precious time could be lost.

Indeed, it concerned me but I didn't think to contact TfL at the time.

 

[Mojo]

I exited at Highgate station some months ago and the barriers certainly appeared unmanned but closed. No sign of any staff around. If they were there, I certainly didn't see them.

Staff at Highgate are usually based in the Station Supervisors office which has a large glass window directly onto the gateline. As a Sub-surface station, Highgate is also legally required to have a minimum of two members of staff on duty at all times the station is open to the public.

I think that is rather concerning, I've seen instances of people getting trapped and staff have been able to intervene quickly and what if there is some sort of emergency and the station has to be evacuated? Precious time could be lost.

It is a requirement that barriers are linked into the station fire alarm system. When the system goes into evacuation the gates automatically open. Offices are also fitted with an emergency open plunger.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

Staff at Highgate are usually based in the Station Supervisors office which has a large glass window directly onto the gateline. As a Sub-surface station, Highgate is also legally required to have a minimum of two members of staff on duty at all times the station is open to the public.


It is a requirement that barriers are linked into the station fire alarm system. When the system goes into evacuation the gates automatically open. Offices are also fitted with an emergency open plunger.

Well, as I say, if it was the case, I certainly didn't see it! Non-visible staff are no more use than nonexistent staff...

 

[matt_world2004]

Barriers on the Overground East anglia lines and silverlink reduced ticketless travel from 20% to 2%

 

[smsm1]

Or head to Germany where ticket barriers at stations are unheard of. Local trains have random ticket checks, on regional and intercity trains the ticket checks on board are more frequent. They also have some rather cheap tickets (especially zonal and weekend tickets) compared to Britain, which might explain why so many try to evade fares in Britain.

 

[coppercapped]

Or head to Germany where ticket barriers at stations are unheard of. Local trains have random ticket checks, on regional and intercity trains the ticket checks on board are more frequent. They also have some rather cheap tickets (especially zonal and weekend tickets) compared to Britain, which might explain why so many try to evade fares in Britain.

'Schwarzfahren' (travelling without a ticket) is a Volkssport in Germany. In the large cities and conurbations fare evasion levels are high.

It certainly was the case - it may have changed now - that monthly season tickets were valid from the first of that month only. So travelling ticket checks would always happen between the first and about the 6th or 7th of the month, after which there were rarely any checks until the beginning of the next month. This was designed to catch those who had forgotten to renew their seasons...

So essentially for the second half of every month one could travel for free - if one was so inclined.

 

[TurbostarFan]

LU doesn't remotely operate barriers like many train operating companies do; they are either operated by staff present adjacent to the gateline or by staff in an office next to or in front of the gateline. When the barriers are being left unattended (for example if staff have to attend to other duties on the station) they will normally leave at least one gate open.

All LU managed stations are rostered to have staff present 24 hours a day, although there may be two periods per day which staff are not present for meal reliefs at smaller, above ground, stations. Despite what people may say, there are only a tiny number of occasions where a duty is uncovered and a station is left unstaffed.

This is good as it deters fare evasion.

 

[al78]

What's the point of barriers …….. if they are going to be left open for significant periods of time . Barriers are proven method of increasing fare revenue - and probably pay for themselves and the staffing costs within weeks . Yet why are stations left so undermanned even during peak periods . Birmingham New Street this means you . In my view it should be a franchise requirement to man the barrier not just the station at all times when trains are calling.

Also, what is the point of barriers when there is a barrier free and unmanned back entrance to the station (Redhill).

 

[TurbostarFan]

Also, what is the point of barriers when there is a barrier free and unmanned back entrance to the station (Redhill).

True. In such an event the only point is to encourage people to buy a ticket as they can avoid having to potentially walk an extra distance and/or avoid a crowd of people using the back entrance if they do. Barriers are pointless if there is a back entrance which has barriers but people are let through without having to show their ticket (e.g. at St Neots station) or the barriers are always (and I do mean always) left open due to staff shortages (e.g. at King's Cross or Peterborough stations).

 

[cjp]

Also, what is the point of barriers when there is a barrier free and unmanned back entrance to the station (Redhill).

Likewise Moorgate where I exited (by mistake let me say) through a barrier free route after having got stuck earlier - see post 24

 

[Antman]

Also, what is the point of barriers when there is a barrier free and unmanned back entrance to the station (Redhill).

Good question, New Malden is another example.

 

[bhb]

Yes, the arrangement at New Malden is very strange.

 

[Ianno87]

Also, what is the point of barriers when there is a barrier free and unmanned back entrance to the station (Redhill).

Presumably because many of the less bright end of the fare evasion spectrum won't realise this, especially if it's not an 'obvious' entrance.

 

[TurbostarFan]

Presumably because many of the less bright end of the fare evasion spectrum won't realise this, especially if it's not an 'obvious' entrance.

True that. For example at Kings Cross the main exit from the platforms leads you straight to the ticket gates, which from experience are usually open but are sometimes closed and manned. However the alternative exit (which has open barriers and is unmanned) is not so obvious. This means that once a fare evader has walked past the staircase and lift to the alternative exit, there is no going back without having to walk against the flow of people traffic in crowd (which is a hassle) and being noticed by station staff in the process. In theory this could result in station security and/or BTP being called to meet the fare evader at the alternative exit, in practice I would imagine that they would just turn a blind eye and let them get on with it because it isn't worth involving the Police or putting railway staff at risk of potentially being attacked. At Kings Cross the barriers are more of a visual deterent than anything!

 

[Kite159]

What is the point in having the barriers at Birmingham Snow Hill in operation when the barriers at Birmingham Moor Street are wide open?

Any members of the pay when challenged brigade will simply use Moor Street to avoid paying the fare.

 

[6Gman]

What is the point in having the barriers at Birmingham Snow Hill in operation when the barriers at Birmingham Moor Street are wide open?

Any members of the pay when challenged brigade will simply use Moor Street to avoid paying the fare.

Need remarkable eyesight to see one from the other.

 

[TurbostarFan]

What is the point in having the barriers at Birmingham Snow Hill in operation when the barriers at Birmingham Moor Street are wide open?

Any members of the pay when challenged brigade will simply use Moor Street to avoid paying the fare.

Because it is a visual deterent and at least creates a minor inconveince to fare evaders therefore encouraging them to give up and pay the fare if they want to travel to/from Birmingham Snow Hill.

 

[TEW]

Good question, New Malden is another example.

Yes, the arrangement at New Malden is very strange.

New Malden is in the process of being sorted now, I agree it was certainly odd previously.

 

[Kite159]

Need remarkable eyesight to see one from the other.

But for locals they will know they have a better chance of a free ride by using Moor Street rather than Snow Hill.

 

[trainophile]

There ought to be an automatic small penalty (say 50p or £1) added to tickets bought on the train when boarding at a station that has ticket buying facilities. I see loads of (sadly usually youngsters) getting on right at the front in the hope of the guard not reaching them before they get off one stop later, and when he does they always seem to have to buy a ticket from him. A small surcharge might be enough to deter them from taking the risk.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

There ought to be an automatic small penalty (say 50p or £1) added to tickets bought on the train when boarding at a station that has ticket buying facilities. I see loads of (sadly usually youngsters) getting on right at the front in the hope of the guard not reaching them before they get off one stop later, and when he does they always seem to have to buy a ticket from him. A small surcharge might be enough to deter them from taking the risk.

You could even call that surcharge a Penalty. Then it'd be a Penalty Fare!

There already is a surcharge as such - the NRCoT say that, if you aren't issued with a Penalty Fare and don't have your details taken for prosecution, you will still have to pay the undiscounted Anytime (Day) Single.

 

[TurbostarFan]

There ought to be an automatic small penalty (say 50p or £1) added to tickets bought on the train when boarding at a station that has ticket buying facilities. I see loads of (sadly usually youngsters) getting on right at the front in the hope of the guard not reaching them before they get off one stop later, and when he does they always seem to have to buy a ticket from him. A small surcharge might be enough to deter them from taking the risk.

Unless of course one of the statutory defences to an offence under Bylaw 18 apply e.g. a notice or member of staff allowing you to travel without a ticket and buy on board.

 

[Ethano92]

New Malden is in the process of being sorted now, I agree it was certainly odd previously.

I've already heard multiple people complain or ask staff as the new shelter which the ticket barriers will be under doesn't look like it can house many gates and so even longer waits on the staircase will occur during peaks. Surely this means even more people will go for the 2 doors nearest to the exit to try and beat the queue slowing down dwell times etc etc. This must happen in many places. Makes sense its being sorted out though because the stations either side (except Berrylands) have already been sorted out for quite some time.

 

[Kite159]

You could even call that surcharge a Penalty. Then it'd be a Penalty Fare!

There already is a surcharge as such - the NRCoT say that, if you aren't issued with a Penalty Fare and don't have your details taken for prosecution, you will still have to pay the undiscounted Anytime (Day) Single.

Although in some cases there isn't a discounted off-peak fare available or its only 20p less so for some PwC folk it is a risk worth taking

(For those passengers who are not entitled to a Railcard)

 

[TurbostarFan]

Although in some cases there isn't a discounted off-peak fare available or its only 20p less so for some PwC folk it is a risk worth taking

(For those passengers who are not entitled to a Railcard)

That is true. Hence why I agree but go further, all trains should become PF.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

This is good as it deters fare evasion.

Perhaps, but I feel that the ease of paying for your journey (with any old contactless card being your method of payment, and no need to queue up for any kind of machine or ticket office), as well as the fact that, by and large, for London standards, PAYG fares are quite reasonable, are both bigger factors.

 

[TurbostarFan]

Perhaps, but I feel that the ease of paying for your journey (with any old contactless card being your method of payment, and no need to queue up for any kind of machine or ticket office), as well as the fact that, by and large, for London standards, PAYG fares are quite reasonable, are both bigger factors.

Correct but my point is that remotely monitoring the gatelines (e.g. at St Neots) and opening them on demand (whether a ticket is produced or not) defeats the point of having a gateline. This results in a gateline which doesn't actually deter fare evasion.

 

[tsr]

Presumably because many of the less bright end of the fare evasion spectrum won't realise this, especially if it's not an 'obvious' entrance.

Oh, trust me, at Redhill the - ah - "regulars" all know and love the side entrance. It also used to be the only step-free route, and leads out onto the rear car park (which is at least as large as the front one), so it's not exactly an unknown world.

You could even call that surcharge a Penalty. Then it'd be a Penalty Fare!

There already is a surcharge as such - the NRCoT say that, if you aren't issued with a Penalty Fare and don't have your details taken for prosecution, you will still have to pay the undiscounted Anytime (Day) Single.

Trouble is, everyone with a grain of deviousness will know that if you spend long enough arguing that you want the off-peak and/or discounted fare, the guard won't have time to do very much other than abandon the sale or take the money offered.

Southeastern went through a phase of removing their guards' ability to sell anything other than Anytime fares onboard. I've not heard whether or not the scheme has been continued in the long run, and I don't travel with them very much any more. I know it did result in some passengers refusing to pay and becoming extremely angry.

 

[TurbostarFan]

Oh, trust me, at Redhill the - ah - "regulars" all know and love the side entrance. It also used to be the only step-free route, and leads out onto the rear car park (which is at least as large as the front one), so it's not exactly an unknown world.



Trouble is, everyone with a grain of deviousness will know that if you spend long enough arguing that you want the off-peak and/or discounted fare, the guard won't have time to do very much other than abandon the sale or take the money offered.

Southeastern went through a phase of removing their guards' ability to sell anything other than Anytime fares onboard. I've not heard whether or not the scheme has been continued in the long run, and I don't travel with them very much any more. I know it did result in some passengers refusing to pay and becoming extremely angry.

Or the guard could just refuse to listen to you and issue a UFN therefore giving you 21 days in which to pay plus the oppurtunity to appeal. That is what should happen IMO if a prosecution is not warranted and a PF cannot be issued.

 

[muz379]

There ought to be an automatic small penalty (say 50p or £1) added to tickets bought on the train when boarding at a station that has ticket buying facilities. I see loads of (sadly usually youngsters) getting on right at the front in the hope of the guard not reaching them before they get off one stop later, and when he does they always seem to have to buy a ticket from him. A small surcharge might be enough to deter them from taking the risk.

Of course for this penalty to be applied the guard still has to get to them and try to issue a ticket , and if there is a few of them there are always going to be some who get a free ride . If they argue with the guard long enough about paying the penalty and just chuck the usual money for a single at the guard before getting off there is not much that can be done .

This is one of the things when you look at fare evasion , without having every station manned with a police prescence you will never get fare evasion down to 0% , there will always be some that get away with it . The key is making it harder to fare evade without spending disproportionate sums on measures to tackle fare evasion .

I would also question the notion that it is usually youngsters , I can think of several occasions when it has been older people doing the same . I can also think of countless occasions when I have caught pensioners with free passes trying the same in peak time when their pass is not valid . In my experience its not just youngsters , nor in my experience do youngsters make up a significant majority of those pay when challenged getting on furthest away from the guard .

There already is a surcharge as such - the NRCoT say that, if you aren't issued with a Penalty Fare and don't have your details taken for prosecution, you will still have to pay the undiscounted Anytime (Day) Single.

Of course in some cases the undiscounted anytime single is the only single fare that is available and the passenger might only want a single and not be in possession of a rail card .

generally when selling on board from a station with ticket buying facilities I will remind the passenger of the need to buy before they board but will sell the ticket they request and the risk of getting a penalty fare if they dont .

more blockades at unmanned stations in my view would provide better deterrent than having staff on board the train who dont have the time to really do anything other than sell a ticket try and argue about a penalty with passengers.