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Thameslink Services/Timetable from May 20th 2018

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MML

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I believe the Sevenoaks services are eventually due to run through the core and onto WGC.
1. Will this be from May 2019 ?
2. The Sevenoaks services currently terminate on platform 3 at Blackfriars. But even during the peak, this platform only hosts one train every half hour. I would have thought greater use of the platform would have been required in the peak ?
3. If Sevenoaks services are to go through the core, what will the terminating platform 3 be used for ?
 
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ijmad

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I believe the Sevenoaks services are eventually due to run through the core and onto WGC.
1. Will this be from May 2019 ?

Originally, this was the plan, however due to last May's disaster, things seem to be running one cycle late. It's definitely not happening this May (these timetables are already up). I suspect the Sevenoaks to Welwyn service will commence in December 2019.

2. The Sevenoaks services currently terminate on platform 2 at Blackfriars. But even during the peak, this platform only hosts one train every half hour. I would have thought greater use of the platform would have been required in the peak ?

3. If Sevenoaks services are to go through the core, what will the terminating platform 2 be used for ?

Blackfriars was originally designed so 8tph from the Wimbledon loop (4 each way round) could terminate in one of its bay platforms, rather than those trains going through the core. Network Rail changed its mind after a campaign by locals and their MP for continued 2tph+2tph 'thru' service.

So what platform 3 will be used for from 2020 remains mysterious. I have read rumours here and elsewhere that there's a desire to run extra peak services around the Wimbledon loop which might terminate at Blackfriars, possibly a continuation of the strange London Bridge to Sutton services that run in the opposite direction to the morning peak flow at the moment. Platform 4's peak time Ashford International services will also become a Thameslink route, now likely at some point in 2020, meaning even fewer trains in Platform 4, to boot.

Perhaps Southeastern will bid for some more paths to Sole Street/Rochester.

A couple of extra peak busters down the Catford Loop to Denmark Hill and Peckham Rye would also be nice. Before the Thameslink 'enhancements' Denmark Hill used to get 7 trains to Blackfriars between 0800 and 0900 (5 Thameslink and 2 Southeastern), now it gets 5 (4 Thameslink and 1 Southeastern). Admittedly the 700s carry more passengers than 319s, and the all day service is nice, but it's still a smack in the face for a very busy station.

I also think an all day service to Beckenham Junction via Herne Hill, West Dulwich and Kent House would be great (it's just peaks at the moment).
 
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BRX

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Originally, this was the plan, however due to last May's disaster, things seem to be running one cycle late. It's definitely not happening in May (these timetables are already up). I suspect the Sevenoaks to Welwyn service will commence in December 2019.



Blackfriars was originally designed so 8tph from the Wimbledon loop (4 each way round) could terminate in one of its bay platforms, rather than those trains going through the core. Network Rail changed its mind after a campaign by locals and their MP for continued 2tph+2tph 'thru' service.

So what platform 3 will be used for from 2020 remains mysterious. I have read rumours here and elsewhere that there's a desire to run extra peak services around the Wimbledon loop which might terminate at Blackfriars, possibly a continuation of the strange London Bridge to Sutton services that run in the opposite direction to the morning peak flow at the moment. Platform 4's peak time Ashford International services will also become a Thameslink route, now likely at some point in 2020, meaning even fewer trains in Platform 4, to boot.

Perhaps Southeastern will bid for some more paths to Sole Street/Rochester.

A couple of extra peak busters down the Catford Loop to Denmark Hill and Peckham Rye would also be nice. Before the Thameslink 'enhancements' Denmark Hill used to get 7 trains to Blackfriars between 0800 and 0900 (5 Thameslink and 2 Southeastern), now it gets 5 (4 Thameslink and 1 Southeastern). Admittedly the 700s carry more passengers than 319s, and the all day service is nice, but it's still a smack in the face for a very busy station.
I didnt realise 8tph was planned for the wimbledon loop. Is that actually feasible? The loop is in bad need of extra services in the peak. 4tph through the core plus another 4tph making use of the terminating platforms would be nice.
 

ijmad

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I didnt realise 8tph was planned for the wimbledon loop. Is that actually feasible? The loop is in bad need of extra services in the peak. 4tph through the core plus another 4tph making use of the terminating platforms would be nice.

I recall (and I may be misremembering) that the plan before 2012 or so was supposedly 4tph clockwise and 4tph anticlockwise, at least during the peaks. If this plan had stuck perhaps the programme would have needed to spend money on signalling upgrades and so on. I personally have no idea what state infrastructure on the loop is in as of today, perhaps more knowledgeable members can chime in.
 

hwl

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I recall (and I may be misremembering) that the plan before 2012 or so was supposedly 4tph clockwise and 4tph anticlockwise, at least during the peaks. If this plan had stuck perhaps the programme would have needed to spend money on signalling upgrades and so on. I personally have no idea what state infrastructure on the loop is in as of today, perhaps more knowledgeable members can chime in.
Parts of the loop* had a bad quality unreliable mid 1980s GEC signalling interlocking job that has been replaced (2017?) but everything else is in reasonable nick. Power supplies have been upgraded etc.

*Streatham area, part of VSC panel 5?
 

hwl

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I didnt realise 8tph was planned for the wimbledon loop. Is that actually feasible? The loop is in bad need of extra services in the peak. 4tph through the core plus another 4tph making use of the terminating platforms would be nice.
Perfectly - Last May onwards would have been less of a disaster too.
Unfortunately the local MP knew better!
 

ijmad

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Perfectly - Last May onwards would have been less of a disaster too.
Unfortunately the local MP knew better!

Would have also meant 8tph at Tulse Hill and Herne Hill in to Blackfriars - would have been a nice improvement for another pair of rather overcrowded stations.
 

jon0844

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As far as I'm aware there are tiny changes in the week and the May timetable change is to restore the planned weekend services. Anything extra will be in December.

Surveys have been going on to consider some tweaks to service patterns, and I'd expect that will be for December too.
 

387star

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Orpington services still missing at weekends
Brighton to Cambridge is onc an hour on weekends guess eventually it will.match the new twice an hour weekday frequency
 

387star

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At Horsham depot there are only two jobs to Peterborough despite a fair few now signing it.
Finsbury Park still suffers from last minute platform changes. What causes this exactly? Is there a booked platform in the timetable the system defaults to?
 

BRX

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Perfectly - Last May onwards would have been less of a disaster too.
Unfortunately the local MP knew better!
I thought the proposal was for *all* (or most) wimbledon loop services to terminate at Blackfriars though. And I don't recall that an 8tph frequency was part of that deal. I might be wrong.

I do actually think it was a mistake to oppose it anyway, because of the increased reliability it could have brought.
 

bramling

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At Horsham depot there are only two jobs to Peterborough despite a fair few now signing it.
Finsbury Park still suffers from last minute platform changes. What causes this exactly? Is there a booked platform in the timetable the system defaults to?

Most up outer suburban services are booked to use platform 2. A small handful are booked to use platform 4, either when something else is using platform 2 (for example if a freight working prevents the Moorgate using platform 1), or in a couple of cases apparently to save time as using platform 4 is slightly quicker.

However the signallers sometimes use platform 4 on an unplanned basis - likely for the same reasons, either platform 2 being occupied or to make up time.

Unfortunately the CIS as Finsbury Park is setup in such a way that it doesn’t seem to broadcast the alteration until the train has actually taken the route, which is naturally at the last minute.
 

jon0844

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Unfortunately the CIS as Finsbury Park is setup in such a way that it doesn’t seem to broadcast the alteration until the train has actually taken the route, which is naturally at the last minute.

That's how it works at Welwyn Garden City too. Fortunately, in most scenarios it isn't a problem as it will be a platform 2 change to 1 (same island) and something that happens very rarely. The bigger problem there is that a stop order on a train will have the service up on the summary screen but no platform, and the train won't appear on platform screens until it moves from the up fast to up slow. Again, not often a massive issue compared to Finsbury Park where there's simply no time to safely change islands - and drivers self dispatching so staff cannot hold trains as they once could.
 

Bald Rick

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I thought the proposal was for *all* (or most) wimbledon loop services to terminate at Blackfriars though. And I don't recall that an 8tph frequency was part of that deal. I might be wrong.

I do actually think it was a mistake to oppose it anyway, because of the increased reliability it could have brought.

Until about 5 years ago the proposal was 4tph each way around the loop, all 8tph terminating at Blackfriars.
 

bramling

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As far as I'm aware there are tiny changes in the week and the May timetable change is to restore the planned weekend services. Anything extra will be in December.

Surveys have been going on to consider some tweaks to service patterns, and I'd expect that will be for December too.

I've had a chance to have a look through it in more detail now - somewhere along the line I'll get time to put it into SimSig!

MONDAYS TO FRIDAYS

MF the main change is of course the second Cambridge/Brighton, which seems to finish in the mid-evening reverting to hourly. Not sure if this is a permanent fixture, or whether there's more to come in the future. There's also an extra early-morning KX-Cambridge semi-fast as part of the same pattern. The second Cambridge/Brighton calls at Ashwell, and there's a few extra Ashwell calls during the peaks. One morning service does Brighton/Royston and return as opposed to reaching Cambridge.

Many extra Letchworth calls and a few extra Royston calls on the 387 services, with almost everything departing KX at XX:09 and XX:39 after 16:39. This seems reasonably sensible IMO, and no doubt is in response to Letchworth being one of the most vociferously objectionable to the new service, in particular having lost their non-stop London services. Letchworth also gets 387 calls on Saturday evenings. Ashwell loses most of its 387 calls.

The remaining Royston 365 services revert to Baldock as expected, except for one morning service for some reason. Naturally this also results in some changes to incoming workings at KX for some of the evening peak 365 services.

The evening peak XX:06 and XX:36 fast Peterborough services now depart at XX:12 and XX:42, with the 19:36 KX-Peterborough revised to depart at 19:18. The 16:42 service now calls at Stevenage, and all evening peak 1PXX services are now booked to use the down slow line north of Woolmer Green. The 19:57 KX-Baldock 365 service now calls at Knebworth (Hitchin passengers will be furious at losing their last remaining non-stop service!).

No real changes to the KX-Cambridge North/Cambridge stopping service, apart from some very minor timing tweaks.

The inners also appear to be largely left alone, although the sole 1x313 diagram should be 1x717 now. Of course the remaining Stevenage via Hertford services now terminate at Watton-at-Stone, the only exceptions being the small handful which originate or finish at Letchworth sidings which run in service from or to Stevenage. The only other real change is some very minor retimings, mainly around Watton-at-Stone and Hertford North.

There's also some tidying up of reporting numbers across the board, mainly involving ECS services, but also including a couple of passengers services, such as 2C16/2C33 becoming 2R16/2R33 to denote that this working reverses at Letchworth.

SATURDAYS

On Saturdays the various gaps have been filled, and there's a half-hourly KX-Peterborough service all day, which is a mixture of 700/1, 2x365 and 2x387. Cambridge/Brighton is hourly through the day with one from and to King's Cross at the start and end of the day. These are all presumably 700/1. The KX-Cambridge stopping service is half hourly all day, with half the service turning back at Royston. This is all 700/0 apart from one late evening service which is formed of a single 387. For 365 fans, there appears to be no 365 working to Ely on Saturdays in this timetable - whilst there's a small amount of crossover with the Peterborough service, these are all 2x387. There's little scope for 2x365 appearing on the stopping services as the Royston services all interwork with the Cambridge services, and the start and finish locations don't readily match up for 1x365, although of course it could happen with suitable adjustments being arranged on the day.


SUNDAYS

As far as Sunday goes, the main change is 1tph Gatwick/Cambridge through the bulk of the day, formed 700/1. The Peterborough service is hourly, now booked for 700/1s through the bulk of the day. There's a few GN services formed of 1x387 at the extremes of the day to various destinations. The 3x tidal flow limited stop Peterborough extras are a mix of 365 and 387. Unless I've missed anything this is the only booked 365 activity on Sundays, although I can't see any reason why they can't substitute for 700/1s reasonably readily on the Peterborough route.
 
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ctrh136

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Originally, this was the plan, however due to last May's disaster, things seem to be running one cycle late. It's definitely not happening this May (these timetables are already up). I suspect the Sevenoaks to Welwyn service will commence in December 2019.



Blackfriars was originally designed so 8tph from the Wimbledon loop (4 each way round) could terminate in one of its bay platforms, rather than those trains going through the core. Network Rail changed its mind after a campaign by locals and their MP for continued 2tph+2tph 'thru' service.

So what platform 3 will be used for from 2020 remains mysterious. I have read rumours here and elsewhere that there's a desire to run extra peak services around the Wimbledon loop which might terminate at Blackfriars, possibly a continuation of the strange London Bridge to Sutton services that run in the opposite direction to the morning peak flow at the moment. Platform 4's peak time Ashford International services will also become a Thameslink route, now likely at some point in 2020, meaning even fewer trains in Platform 4, to boot.

Perhaps Southeastern will bid for some more paths to Sole Street/Rochester.

A couple of extra peak busters down the Catford Loop to Denmark Hill and Peckham Rye would also be nice. Before the Thameslink 'enhancements' Denmark Hill used to get 7 trains to Blackfriars between 0800 and 0900 (5 Thameslink and 2 Southeastern), now it gets 5 (4 Thameslink and 1 Southeastern). Admittedly the 700s carry more passengers than 319s, and the all day service is nice, but it's still a smack in the face for a very busy station.

I also think an all day service to Beckenham Junction via Herne Hill, West Dulwich and Kent House would be great (it's just peaks at the moment).

I seem to remember the draft timetable including a peak only device from Blackfriars going anticlockwise around the Wimbledon loop, thus making 4tph in each direction around the loop (including the service from LBG) during peak times.
 

ctrh136

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I seem to remember the draft timetable including a peak only device from Blackfriars going anticlockwise around the Wimbledon loop, thus making 4tph in each direction around the loop (including the service from LBG) during peak times.
(That's pm peak)
 

petersi

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But it’s still not fully the promised May 2018 timetable
As Mooregate from WGC on Staturday is still only 2 trains an hour instead of 4.
I Dought it will ever be 4 per hour as there not the passenger demand for it.
 

ijmad

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OwenB

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Apologies if this has already been posted elsewhere, but some of you guys are talking about the Thameslink/Great Northern May 2019 timetable - would someone mind posting a link please? I've tried looking on the Thameslink site and can't find anything. Thank you.
 

ComUtoR

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Thameslink/Great Northern May 2019 timetable - would someone mind posting a link please? I've tried looking on the Thameslink site and can't find anything. Thank you.

Go to Realtimetrains
Enter a future date (past the timetable change)
Change the time to all day
????
Profit

Kent side

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/sea...19/06/03/0000-2359?stp=WVS&show=all&order=wtt (Rainham)
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/sea...19/06/03/0000-2359?stp=WVS&show=all&order=wtt (Orpington)
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/sea...19/06/03/0000-2359?stp=WVS&show=all&order=wtt (Sevenoaks)

You have to wait till the timetable gets uploaded but generally there is an announcement on TOCs website about timetable changes.
 
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Aictos

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I still think it's a missed opportunity not to extend the Sunday service on the Peterborough's to half hourly like they do on Saturdays yes LNER do run some fast services but that does nothing for stations between Huntingdon and Stevenage/Finsbury Park.

A oversight on the part of GTR and Network Rail certainly, yes having a hourly 12 car service all day on the route is good but equally having a half hourly 8 car service would have been just as good.
 

OwenB

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Go to Realtimetrains
Enter a future date (past the timetable change)
Change the time to all day
????
Profit

Kent side

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/sea...19/06/03/0000-2359?stp=WVS&show=all&order=wtt (Rainham)
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/sea...19/06/03/0000-2359?stp=WVS&show=all&order=wtt (Orpington)
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/sea...19/06/03/0000-2359?stp=WVS&show=all&order=wtt (Sevenoaks)

You have to wait till the timetable gets uploaded but generally there is an announcement on TOCs website about timetable changes.
Great, thank you.
 

Skimble19

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I still think it's a missed opportunity not to extend the Sunday service on the Peterborough's to half hourly like they do on Saturdays yes LNER do run some fast services but that does nothing for stations between Huntingdon and Stevenage/Finsbury Park.

A oversight on the part of GTR and Network Rail certainly, yes having a hourly 12 car service all day on the route is good but equally having a half hourly 8 car service would have been just as good.
Off the top of my head I think this is now down for either December this year or May next year. Either way it's planned for, sooner the better as far as I'm concerned!
 

Aictos

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Off the top of my head I think this is now down for either December this year or May next year. Either way it's planned for, sooner the better as far as I'm concerned!

I agree, the sooner this happens the better as it's long overdue with the growth the route has seen in recent years.
 

Aictos

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However is it the plan to operate them all as Class 700/1s, Class 700/0s or a mix of the two?
 
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MikeWM

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So Cambridge->London on Saturdays will go back to 4 an hour, two fast, one semi-fast, one stopper. Back to the frequency it had 20 years ago (maybe that's what 'Thameslink 2000' meant all along!). And Sundays keep the same inadequate 3 per hour.

No effort to deal with the other issues:
  • The Ely-> London 'fasts' still leave 11 minutes earlier compared to pre-2018, but arrive at London at much the same time as before - most of that extra time spent pointlessly sitting around at Cambridge.
  • No improvement in the frequency or spacing of Sunday services (all the trains from Ely to Cambridge are bunched together within a few minutes each hour, same for all the fast/semi-fast trains from Cambridge to London).
  • Still no later last train north of Cambridge on any day despite this being promised in the draft timetables (in fact due to the added padding the last train now leaves 3-6 minutes earlier than before, on all days, highly inconvenient for people eg. seeing an evening show in London)
  • Still no attempt to fulfil the franchise requirement (!) of an arrival into London from north of Cambridge on Sunday before the already absurdly-late time of 1000.
 

philjo

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The additional Kings Cross to Royston stopper will make the stoppers via Welwyn half-hourly again on Saturdays.
Unfortunately only one stopper goes to Cambridge which runs northbound 5 minutes behind the semi-fast from Brighton. so the villages also only have an hourly service on Saturdays.
e.g. at Stevenage xx:03 semi-fast to Cambridge, xx:08 stopper to Cambridge, xx:38 stopper to Royston. So if going to Cambridge from North Herts on a Saturday you have 2 trains to Cambridge within 5 minutes then a 55 minute wait. Southbound they are OK - departure from Cambridge at xx:54 (semi-fast to Brighton) and xx:27 (stopper)
 

bspahh

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Still no later last train north of Cambridge on any day despite this being promised in the draft timetables (in fact due to the added padding the last train now leaves 3-6 minutes earlier than before, on all days, highly inconvenient for people eg. seeing an evening show in London)

Its particularly annoying that four trains from London arrive in Cambridge between 00:35 and 00:54, but none of them make it to Ely.
 
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