East-West Rail (EWR): Consultation updates [not speculation]

[Class 170101]

It was built partly to ease the load on the main Cambridge station. These are plans for 7600 homes on that unused land, with 7000 jobs, a hotel etc.
https://www.cambridge-news.co.uk/news/cambridge-news/new-town-size-saffron-walden-14442451
https://www.cambridge.gov.uk/consul...a-action-plan-issues-and-options-consultation



The plans are to have a Cambridge South station near Addenbrookes, which will probably mean 4 tracks between there and the current Cambridge station. There is plenty of space at Cambridge if they needed to build extra platforms. Potentially there could be a new station entrance to the East.

The Cambridge South design if people were sensible about it would see the four tracks extended to (the existing) Shepreth Branch Jn. As for space at Cambridge I wouldn't hold your breath on that one. Stabling space is becoming a serious problem. Any loss of existing stabling space for extra platforms at Cambridge certainly wouldn't be welcome.

 

[camflyer]

Today is the final days for submissions for the consultation on the central section:
https://eastwestrail.co.uk/haveyoursay

Speak now or forever hold your peace

 

[hwl]

Today is the final days for submissions for the consultation on the central section:
https://eastwestrail.co.uk/haveyoursay

Speak now or forever hold your peace

Or wait till the next consultation, this is only a first round

 

[deltic08]

A north east curve at Bletchley would only serve any benefits to me if 1 train per hour came from Cambridge to MKC. Before the central section is built it serves little purpose. Looking at the map, i'd not go under the flyover before turning. Just turn north before it. Judging by the amount of cars parked on what would be the west part of the line, its not really cutting that much off.

View attachment 60058

I'm not saying its worth it. As for train storage. Look at all those wasted rails!! When I was a kid there were class 310 EMU's galore stacked up on the hill, which would be furthest right in the picture. I think about 8 units were parked there at a time. Bletchley certainly isn't short of space to park trains.

The line drawn is far too tight. Copy the radius of the rails in the photo which is already tight enough and more of the sheds in to the industrial estate are involved.
If money was no object it could be built on a flyover starting further back to clear the rail sidings and depot and then pass through the estate where there seems to be a natural gap between the sheds and then down again on NR property. That would provide shelter for the workers parking on a rainy day under the new viaduct.

 

[DarloRich]

The line drawn is far too tight. Copy the radius of the rails in the photo which is already tight enough and more of the sheds in to the industrial estate are involved.
If money was no object it could be built on a flyover starting further back to clear the rail sidings and depot and then pass through the estate where there seems to be a natural gap between the sheds and then down again on NR property. That would provide shelter for the workers parking on a rainy day under the new viaduct.

There are no gaps in the "sheds" and several parts of the estate has just been rebuilt. A flyover is also difficult. The space for it is very tight because of the existing Saxon Street Bridges and the elevation changes from the Marston Vale line towards the trading estate and the rising embankment offering access to the flyover.

You cant branch off before Saxon Street as the triangle of land formed by the Marston Vale line, Watling Street and Saxon Street contains a large Tesco and other shops. You cant go any further back ( even if you could afford to close down Tesco) because the Watling Street Bridge gets in the way. it is also worth noting the Marston Vale at this point is single track on a narrow embankment.

Personally I think a ground level curve is the only option but as set out above that curve means destroying the depot, the stabling roads, the freight sidings, the engineering stabling and large parts of the trading estate. However the benefit can be achieved for a fraction of the cost by reversing at Bletchley!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Personally I think a ground level curve is the only option but as set out above that curve means destroying the depot, the stabling roads, the freight sidings, the engineering stabling and large parts of the trading estate. However the benefit can be achieved for a fraction of the cost by reversing at Bletchley!

And, unusually, there's room in the timetable to do that now and see if it does increase loadings!

Though the 230s are probably a blocker, I doubt there's room for a 50mph unit on the WCML slows, not even for a quick 5 mile run.

 

[DarloRich]

And, unusually, there's room in the timetable to do that now and see if it does increase loadings!

Though the 230s are probably a blocker, I doubt there's room for a 50mph unit on the WCML slows, not even for a quick 5 mile run.

It isnt 5 miles through is it? it is the distance between Denbigh Hall Junction and P 1a at MKC. Maybe 2.5 miles

 

[Bletchleyite]

It isnt 5 miles through is it? it is the distance between Denbigh Hall Junction and P 1a at MKC. Maybe 2.5 miles

Ah yes, it'd run on the up/down Bletchley lines (which are barely used) for a fairly long part of it. Easy to forget that length of the WCML is 6-tracked, as those lines look to be part of the carriage sidings (but aren't).

 

[DarloRich]

Ah yes, it'd run on the up/down Bletchley lines (which are barely used) for a fairly long part of it. Easy to forget that length of the WCML is 6-tracked, as those lines look to be part of the carriage sidings (but aren't).

it makes it a bit easier. Peak hours only should be doable as a taster.

 

[Bletchleyite]

it makes it a bit easier. Peak hours only should be doable as a taster.

I'd have thought off-peak would be an easier trial as there are fewer trains. You could do it on a Saturday perhaps to see about leisure travel, though I'd imagine it'd be less now Bletchley has a Primani and CMK is about to get one.

 

[Esker-pades]

Milton Keynes Central to Bletchley is 2 miles and 73 chains.

 

[doa46231]

It isn't that easy to reverse at Bletchley.
The Bedford trains can only come into platform 5.
The way out is along Bletchley relief line 2.
Is it even signalled for exit onto the down slow?
If it was that easy it would have been done years ago.

 

[The Planner]

And, unusually, there's room in the timetable to do that now and see if it does increase loadings!

Though the 230s are probably a blocker, I doubt there's room for a 50mph unit on the WCML slows, not even for a quick 5 mile run.

How is there room? Are you assuming the same unit picks up the return path at Bletchley, as in the xx.38 arrival for the xx.01 back?

You need a standard 4 minutes for the reversal at Bletchley so you are up to xx.42 departing, which you cannot do as the xx.43 to Northampton is there. So you have to depart at xx.47 as its a 4 minute headway regardless of the fact you will be using the relief line which only just gets you out as the xx.46 to Euston goes. That is slightly immaterial as the xx.50 to New St is behind you so you are non-compliant. Even if we ignore that aspect of it, the standard running time for a 350 from Bletchley to MK is 3½ minutes, you are going to have to add on 1½ minimum for a 230 to account for acceleration, slow speed turn out at Denbigh Hall and being generally slow. That gets you to MK at xx.52 (1½ minutes in front of the New St train we have ignored). 4 minute turnaround there so xx.56 to come back, you get to Bletchley at xx.01, 4 minute reversal means xx.05 so it doesn't work at all.

 

[deltic08]

There are no gaps in the "sheds" and several parts of the estate has just been rebuilt. A flyover is also difficult. The space for it is very tight because of the existing Saxon Street Bridges and the elevation changes from the Marston Vale line towards the trading estate and the rising embankment offering access to the flyover.

You cant branch off before Saxon Street as the triangle of land formed by the Marston Vale line, Watling Street and Saxon Street contains a large Tesco and other shops. You cant go any further back ( even if you could afford to close down Tesco) because the Watling Street Bridge gets in the way. it is also worth noting the Marston Vale at this point is single track on a narrow embankment.

Personally I think a ground level curve is the only option but as set out above that curve means destroying the depot, the stabling roads, the freight sidings, the engineering stabling and large parts of the trading estate. However the benefit can be achieved for a fraction of the cost by reversing at Bletchley!

That would be the simplest and cheapest. So why all the fuss about a curve.

 

[DarloRich]

That would be the simplest and cheapest. So why all the fuss about a curve.

No idea!

 

[Neen Sollars]

Government paper to be published later today regarding all aspects of the Oxford-Cambridge "knowledge arc". Should contain updates regarding East West Rail.

 

[richieb1971]

The reason people want a curve at Bletchley is because people want MKC to be approached from both East and West without a reversal.

Put it this way. If you could not get from Oxford to MKC without a reversal, would those folks just lie down and take it? Would they be jealous that Cambridge to MKC is such a great option to have but they don't have it?

EWR seems hell bent on advertising MKC as the central point of interest even though it isn't even on the line.

 

[Bletchleyite]

EWR seems hell bent on advertising MKC as the central point of interest even though it isn't even on the line.

And it should be. MK is going to grow and grow, and is without doubt the most important place on the route. It is likely, as with the X5 coach service, that almost all journeys will involve it in some way.

Arguably, the through service across MKC is completely unnecessary, or would be best provided by building the Curve and running everything reversing at MKC, calling at Bletchley on the western leg only.

 

[richieb1971]

Arguably, the through service across MKC is completely unnecessary, or would be best provided by building the Curve and running everything reversing at MKC, calling at Bletchley on the western leg only.

I agree.

You could go south on WMCL as far as Willow Lake and head east through Little Brickhill and join up the East to North link that way. It would only need to be a single track. I'm sure that is another expense not welcomed by most.

 

[richieb1971]

Just for illustration purposes.

 

[Bald Rick]

I agree.

You could go south on WMCL as far as Willow Lake and head east through Little Brickhill and join up the East to North link that way. It would only need to be a single track. I'm sure that is another expense not welcomed by most.

It would be quicker to reverse!

 

[jfowkes]

I would like to propose the following totally sensible solution to everyone's problems. I call it the East-West InfiniLoop. Calls at Bedford, Cambridge and Milton Keynes without reversals. VERY resilient to operational incidents. Serves Cambourne.

East-West InfiniLoop

• jfowkes
• 13 Mar 2019

 

[richieb1971]

If you don't mind I want to show that to some people, looks like it solves everything, at a cost though.

 

[Bald Rick]

I would like to propose the following totally sensible solution to everyone's problems. I call it the East-West InfiniLoop. Calls at Bedford, Cambridge and Milton Keynes without reversals. VERY resilient to operational incidents. Serves Cambourne.

East-West InfiniLoop

• jfowkes
• 13 Mar 2019

I thought it was going to be a kn*b drawing, and it almost is!

 

[richieb1971]

I thought it was going to be a kn*b drawing, and it almost is!

With everything, its up to you what you want to see.

 

[DarloRich]

EWR seems hell bent on advertising MKC as the central point of interest even though it isn't even on the line

it is on the line.

You could go south on WMCL as far as Willow Lake and head east through Little Brickhill and join up the East to North link that way. It would only need to be a single track. I'm sure that is another expense not welcomed by most.

You could. However, as has been discussed before this is really bad capacity wise and speed wise. You are suggesting crossing, on a regular basis, the busiest mixed use railway this side of Venus. Good luck.

 

[richieb1971]

it is on the line. However, as has been discussed before this is really bad capacity wise and speed wise. You are suggesting crossing, on a regular basis, the busiest mixed use railway this side of Venus

Forgive the contradictory nature of your post.

 

[JonathanH]

How is there room? Are you assuming the same unit picks up the return path at Bletchley, as in the xx.38 arrival for the xx.01 back?

You need a standard 4 minutes for the reversal at Bletchley so you are up to xx.42 departing, which you cannot do as the xx.43 to Northampton is there. So you have to depart at xx.47 as its a 4 minute headway regardless of the fact you will be using the relief line which only just gets you out as the xx.46 to Euston goes. That is slightly immaterial as the xx.50 to New St is behind you so you are non-compliant. Even if we ignore that aspect of it, the standard running time for a 350 from Bletchley to MK is 3½ minutes, you are going to have to add on 1½ minimum for a 230 to account for acceleration, slow speed turn out at Denbigh Hall and being generally slow. That gets you to MK at xx.52 (1½ minutes in front of the New St train we have ignored). 4 minute turnaround there so xx.56 to come back, you get to Bletchley at xx.01, 4 minute reversal means xx.05 so it doesn't work at all.

What dictates that the Bedford to Bletchley trains need to run at a particular time in the hour? Presumably access to Jowett Sidings, School times, Connections at Bletchley, anything else?

 

[Bletchleyite]

What dictates that the Bedford to Bletchley trains need to run at a particular time in the hour? Presumably access to Jowett Sidings, School times, Connections at Bletchley, anything else?

Not a lot. But it seems a third unit and crew would be needed (or some skip stopping) to run to MKC and back.

 

[deltic08]

I thought it was going to be a kn*b drawing, and it almost is!

I pity the chap on the left.