What to do? Passengers on train talking about not having valid tickets

[Mutant Lemming]

Even more reason to grass on them, let them have an undesirable/embarrasing consequence for being a dick.

As they aren't here to defend their corner then we can only go on the OPs interpretation of the situation. The may well have been d/h's, they may well have been fare dodgers - but they could equally have been neither. Either way they are best left alone - it only takes one nark with a knife to take umbrage whether it's for being snitched on or being falsely accused/embarrassed. Why take the risk ?

 

[malor]

I'm overhearing passengers on my train (they're sitting right next to me) discussing about how they either don't have tickets, or don't have valid tickets and their likelihood of being caught.

The train is quite long and quite crowded, so I don't want to get up and look for a member of staff in case my seat is grabbed. Is there a way I can alert on-board staff?

Let them be cos it's just you against them. Keep yourself safe and don't get involved cos you are not a vigilante

 

[al78]

I like it!!
Been on planet earth for over 50 yrs & if I’m honest I’ve been a bit of a lad once or twice, or more mainly on a Friday or Saturday night getting into scrapes etc etc.
I’ve never heard that saying before.

It is a saying that is a favourite amongst those that feel an entitlement to get away with things that they shouldn't.

 

[al78]

As they aren't here to defend their corner then we can only go on the OPs interpretation of the situation. The may well have been d/h's, they may well have been fare dodgers - but they could equally have been neither. Either way they are best left alone - it only takes one nark with a knife to take umbrage whether it's for being snitched on or being falsely accused/embarrassed. Why take the risk ?

You are probably right, and I likely wouldn't say anything myself if there is any possibility I have misinterpreted the situation.

 

[Esker-pades]

Let them be cos it's just you against them. Keep yourself safe and don't get involved cos you are not a vigilante

That's an interesting definition of vigilante you have there. Tipping off the authority is not being a vigilante.
Secondly, it would not be me against them, it would be if they could produce a valid ticket when asked by the train manager (or other appropriate member of staff).

 

[Journeyman]

As they aren't here to defend their corner then we can only go on the OPs interpretation of the situation. The may well have been d/h's, they may well have been fare dodgers - but they could equally have been neither. Either way they are best left alone - it only takes one nark with a knife to take umbrage whether it's for being snitched on or being falsely accused/embarrassed. Why take the risk ?

Generally my view. If I'm sat next to people who are behaving in an antisocial manner on a train, I'll only intervene by means of getting staff involved, and I won't try and tackle it myself. I'd far rather just move away if I can. The confrontation that could follow is usually far worse than what they're doing in the first place.

 

[richw]

Mind your own business and don’t get involved. If the TOC were bothered they’d have more ticket checks

 

[malor]

That's an interesting definition of vigilante you have there. Tipping off the authority is not being a vigilante.
Secondly, it would not be me against them, it would be if they could produce a valid ticket when asked by the train manager (or other appropriate member of staff).

You think they won't know it was you that tipped a member of staff about them not having a ticket? Good luck with that
To be honest, you need to realise not having a ticket is not part of "see it, say it, sorted", so try to mind your business and enjoy your journey.

 

[al78]

You think they won't know it was you that tipped a member of staff about them not having a ticket? Good luck with that
To be honest, you need to realise not having a ticket is not part of "see it, say it, sorted", so try to mind your business and enjoy your journey.

It is trivial to be anonymous. Get up, find train manager, tip them off, sit in completely different part of train.

 

[Mag_seven]

not having a ticket is not part of "see it, say it, sorted"

Who says?

 

[Esker-pades]

You think they won't know it was you that tipped a member of staff about them not having a ticket? Good luck with that
To be honest, you need to realise not having a ticket is not part of "see it, say it, sorted", so try to mind your business and enjoy your journey.

Have you heard of this wonderful thing known as the internet? It's brilliant. I managed to speak to the TOC without the people knowing! It's wonderful. You should try the internet.

 

[Smidster]

Who says?

I would suspect the British Transport Police.

While we can, and have, argued about the efficacy of that phrase it is quite clearly for dealing with potentially serious incidents.

Definitely not someone thinking that someone on the train might have committed a trivial ticketing offence.

Personally I don't see why you would want to intervene. If they didn't have the correct ticket, and if it was a regular thing, they would get picked up sooner or later and I don't see any incentive to act in such a matter. In terms of crime level it is like someone walking round town looking for cars parked on double yellow lines and going running for a parking warden.

 

[malor]

It is trivial to be anonymous. Get up, find train manager, tip them off, sit in completely different part of train.

So you are putting yourself at risk because?

 

[Scott M]

Kind of off-topic but it really annoys me when passengers are caught without a ticket during rush hour and the guard asks if they want a single or a return, and they invariably ask for a single. Wish the guard would ask “How do you plan on getting back home then?”, but no doubt they would fear getting in trouble if they did, even if they are thinking it.

 

[bramling]

I personally have little time for the 'snitches get stitches' rubbish.

I don't really need tipping off to fare evaders and it's best for the common or garden passenger not to be involved.

On the other hand I once had a gang of lads on my train make sexually suggestive comments to various women. This was reported to me and I put myself at risk by intervening (not too much risk really - I've never really had much fear of physical violence and verbal abuse just rolls off - but still) and also arranged for police assistance.

The police duly arrived and not one woman involved, including the one who had moaned to me about the behaviour, had the decency to leave their details with them to make a complaint. I made the comment that they were effectively rubber stamping their behaviour and doing anyone else these lads came across a disservice and they seemed to actually consider this rude.

I was fuming.

I can see both sides of the whole issue.

Yes I can well imagine it's frustrating as a passenger to know that one has paid up, quite possibly quite a hefty sum of money, and then find others not only evading payment but perhaps even boasting about it.

I'm not really enamored with the talk about snitching, people should be able to report wrongdoing without fearing having their head bashed in.

However on a practical level I tend to agree with the idea that things are best left for companies to have their own processes to sort out.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

Kind of off-topic but it really annoys me when passengers are caught without a ticket during rush hour and the guard asks if they want a single or a return, and they invariably ask for a single. Wish the guard would ask “How do you plan on getting back home then?”, but no doubt they would fear getting in trouble if they did, even if they are thinking it.

Have you considered the possibility there might be people out there who have a legitimate need for a single ticket during rush hour?

Such as if they have a Railcard (and frequency/pattern of commuting) that means it's cheaper to get an undiscounted single on the way to work in the morning, but a discounted (possibly Off-Peak) single on the way home. Or if they intend to return another day on a journey for which there are no Period Returns, only Day Returns. Or if they intend to get a lift/the bus etc. on the way home.

Not everyone out there is on the fiddle, you know.

 

[GB]

Unless there is some sort of safety or vandalism issue its not worth getting involved. You didn't wan't to give up your seat so couldn't have thought it was much of a big deal.

 

[TurbostarFan]

I suppose you could always text 61016 if you really must inform anyone, directly contacting most TOCs is a waste of time in my opinion.

 

[Scott M]

Have you considered the possibility there might be people out there who have a legitimate need for a single ticket during rush hour?

Such as if they have a Railcard (and frequency/pattern of commuting) that means it's cheaper to get an undiscounted single on the way to work in the morning, but a discounted (possibly Off-Peak) single on the way home. Or if they intend to return another day on a journey for which there are no Period Returns, only Day Returns. Or if they intend to get a lift/the bus etc. on the way home.

Not everyone out there is on the fiddle, you know.

Railcards can be used on short distance local stoppers? I thought there was a minimum spend of around £13 before they applied.

 

[Esker-pades]

Railcards can be used on short distance local stoppers? I thought there was a minimum spend of around £13 before they applied.

The £12 minimum only applies for journeys made before 10am and only for some railcards. With the obvious exceptions of things like the Highland Railcard, there are railcard discounted fares for practically every point to point ticket.

 

[al78]

So you are putting yourself at risk because?

I am sick of dick heads getting away scot free with being dick heads, and inflicting costs on others in the process, whilst other people sit back and validate it by doing nothing. If people regularly had to pay a price higher than what they gain for acting like a dick head, there would be a lot less of such behaviour in the country.

 

[malor]

I am sick of dick heads getting away scot free with being dick heads, and inflicting costs on others in the process, whilst other people sit back and validate it by doing nothing. If people regularly had to pay a price higher than what they gain for acting like a dick head, there would be a lot less of such behaviour in the country.


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You need to remember there are people employed to do this job. There are also CCTVs and covert systems in place at the barriers to ensure fare evaders are caught (railforum even has a section dedicated to people caught by revenue inspectors).
Finally, we are not sitting back and validating it by doing nothing, we are all just ensuring we get home to our families safely by not getting knifed by someone aggrieved by us pointing them out as "fare evaders"

 

[mmh]

It is trivial to be anonymous. Get up, find train manager, tip them off, sit in completely different part of train.

Be sat next to people, possibly looking as if you're earwigging, disappear mid journey, a guard comes along, does whatever, you don't reappear but get off at the same station as them?

Good luck with that anonymity! As others have said, don't be a vigilante.

It's also a pretty rude thing to go to a guard for. Excuse me, you're not doing your job. I'd expect most would politely give you pretty short shrift.

 

[Esker-pades]

Be sat next to people, possibly looking as if you're earwigging, disappear mid journey, a guard comes along, does whatever, you don't reappear but get off at the same station as them?

Good luck with that anonymity! As others have said, don't be a vigilante.

Informing an authority figure that someone is breaking the rules is not being a vigilante. A vigilante in this case would be if I had charged them a penalty fare or removed them from the train. By your definition, anyone who informs any authority about any crime/rule breaking is a vigilante.
"Help! I'm being mugged! Call the police!"
"Can't mate. That'd make me a vigilante."

It's also a pretty rude thing to go to a guard for. Excuse me, you're not doing your job. I'd expect most would politely give you pretty short shrift.

That is also rubbish. Your statement means that if I call 999 and say "my neighbour's house is being burgled, please send the police" the response would be "go away, stop telling us how to do our jobs". I am giving information to authorities which they may find useful and may wish to act upon.



As a more general comment, I expected a level of "don't bother to get involved" (which is fair enough even though I don't agree with it) but "vigilante", "get teeth knocked out" and school playground arguments? Really?

 

[Busaholic]

What do you mean?

Sorry, only just caught up with this thread. I meant that you stated they were keen to get your attention, which seemed to work, and then were keen to share with you the ;information' of being fare evaders. Now suppose you'd called someone in authority and your fellow passengers proved to have valid tickets - you'd have been embarrassed, I'd imagine, at the very least. It might not have ended there, either. Not saying I think this likely, just by no means impossible. Some people have strange ways of getting their kicks.

 

[TurbostarFan]

You need to remember there are people employed to do this job. There are also CCTVs and covert systems in place at the barriers to ensure fare evaders are caught (railforum even has a section dedicated to people caught by revenue inspectors).
Finally, we are not sitting back and validating it by doing nothing, we are all just ensuring we get home to our families safely by not getting knifed by someone aggrieved by us pointing them out as "fare evaders"

In all fairness I think that there are some exceptions to that e.g. on Greater Anglia where they don't use the CCTV or covert systems for that at all.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

As said before, it is one thing about "doing the right thing" and something else about minding your own business and not getting involved.

@FelixtheCat - no disrespect but are you good with theory of mind and reading other people? Could you tell if these passengers were really serious or pulling your leg?

And if you ever had reason to travel without a ticket and was speaking about it to a travelling companion, how would you feel if somebody else told the guard or the authorities?

 

[47271]

Per my earlier post in this thread, I would absolutely do nothing here. I would only intervene, and have done in the past, if another passenger was at risk of becoming victim of criminal behaviour. I've also reacted if I think that I'm being personally disadvantaged in some way, but experience has told me to be extremely careful in this type of situation - outcomes can be very surprising.

I travel First Class with work quite a bit and regularly become aware of people sat with me who don't have First Class tickets, or sometimes they have no ticket at all. The class of travel bit is relevant to the OP since lack of a First Class ticket is something generally more openly discussed in front of me than having no ticket at all.

If I tweeted or went off down the train to report, as a First Class passenger, that some riff raff were in the coach with me without a valid ticket then I would consider myself to be a pompous middle class prat deserving of a bad reaction. So I'd simply allow the ticket inspection to take place and allow the railway to enforce its own rules.

I can't see why I'd be any more likely to get involved in Standard Class?

 

[Esker-pades]

As said before, it is one thing about "doing the right thing" and something else about minding your own business and not getting involved.

@FelixtheCat - no disrespect but are you good with theory of mind and reading other people? Could you tell if these passengers were really serious or pulling your leg?

Not really.

And if you ever had reason to travel without a ticket and was speaking about it to a travelling companion, how would you feel if somebody else told the guard or the authorities?

I wouldn't talk about it openly. If I was ever forced to travel without a valid ticket, I wouldn't say anything to anyone.

 

[mmh]

Informing an authority figure that someone is breaking the rules is not being a vigilante. A vigilante in this case would be if I had charged them a penalty fare or removed them from the train. By your definition, anyone who informs any authority about any crime/rule breaking is a vigilante.
"Help! I'm being mugged! Call the police!"
"Can't mate. That'd make me a vigilante."


That is also rubbish. Your statement means that if I call 999 and say "my neighbour's house is being burgled, please send the police" the response would be "go away, stop telling us how to do our jobs". I am giving information to authorities which they may find useful and may wish to act upon.



As a more general comment, I expected a level of "don't bother to get involved" (which is fair enough even though I don't agree with it) but "vigilante", "get teeth knocked out" and school playground arguments? Really?

Sorry, but your comparison with calling the police to a mugging or burglary doesn't work at all. A completely different situation.

You should wonder why someone potentially fare dodging next to you would let you know that rather than keeping schtum. There's a high chance they're trying to annoy or intimidate you.

I didn't see the teeth knocked out post, but multiple people have quoted the "snitches get stitches" adage. I'm not defending that philosophy, but an awful lot of people live by it.

There's nothing "school playground" about pointing these things out. Running to a guard to say "I think those people might be naughty" could be seen as pretty child-like though.

I've mentioned it before on here that I know (an acquaintance, we both know who each other are) who is currently serving a 10 year prison sentence for leaving someone with brain damage after an argument on a train.

I declined to sign a petition complaining about the length of his sentence, with a lie about my job (very very loosely connected to the jjudiciary at the time) preventing me from doing so, rather than saying I agreed with it. Sometimes being forthright isn't the right approach.

I stand by using the word vigilante and hoping people do "mind their own business".