Treated like a criminal

[CrossAtCountry]

EM Train frOm sheffield to Derby cancelled. Told both by EMT guy at sheffield and lady at station managers office that next train to Derby was Cross country train . Caught this. Ticket guy said my EMT ticket was not valid I needed to pay him £22. I refused, so he called British transport police who greeted me at Derby station.

After some enquiries by them , they said this was not a police matter , there had been a misunderstanding and the fault lies with " the railway", I should take it up with them.

Who was at fault Emt or cross country? Answers on a postcard please

 

[najaB]

Told both by EMT guy at sheffield and lady at station managers office that next train to Derby was Cross country train . Caught this. Ticket guy said my EMT ticket was not valid I needed to pay him £22.

Who was at fault Emt or cross country?

Unless you showed your ticket when you asked when the next train was, neither.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

EM Train frOm sheffield to Derby cancelled. Told both by EMT guy at sheffield and lady at station managers office that next train to Derby was Cross country train . Caught this. Ticket guy said my EMT ticket was not valid I needed to pay him £22. I refused, so he called British transport police who greeted me at Derby station.

After some enquiries by them , they said this was not a police matter , there had been a misunderstanding and the fault lies with " the railway", I should take it up with them.

Who was at fault Emt or cross country? Answers on a postcard please

What ticket did you hold? Could you perhaps upload a picture of it (e.g. using Imgur)?

What did the EMT member of staff at Sheffield specifically say - did you ask him which train you should take, after he was aware what ticket you held? Or did you just ask which the next train to Derby was?

Did you give your name and address to anyone?

 

[CrossAtCountry]

What ticket did you hold? Could you perhaps upload a picture of it (e.g. using Imgur)?

What did the EMT member of staff at Sheffield specifically say - did you ask him which train you should take, after he was aware what ticket you held? Or did you just ask which the next train to Derby was?

Did you give your name and address to anyone?

EMT guy knew my train had been cancelled, he didn't ask what type of ticket I held , said I could catch cross country train.

Cross country guy didn't ask for my name or address, I asked his but he would only give his first name. He just said pay up or I call the police. The police came and said it wasn't a police matter and that the "railway" were at fault.

 

[CrossAtCountry]

What ticket did you hold? Could you perhaps upload a picture of it (e.g. using Imgur)?

What did the EMT member of staff at Sheffield specifically say - did you ask him which train you should take, after he was aware what ticket you held? Or did you just ask which the next train to Derby was?

Did you give your name and address to anyone?

Oh to complete the answer it was a mobile advanced ticket. So yes I guess only valid on the booked train, but surely if that train is cancelled you don't have to pay again?

 

[CrossAtCountry]

Unless you showed your ticket when you asked when the next train was, neither.

That's not what the police said. Both people at sheffield knew the train had been cancelled. Neither asked what type of ticket I had.

 

[gray1404]

I believe you are being asked not if it was a mobile or paper ticket, but was it an Advance ticket or an Off Peak or Anytime ticket? Also was there any "routing on the ticket? E.g. Any Permitted or EMT Only or something similar.

I would say in this case, if your account is true, upon the EMT train being cancelled you received permission from the Authorised Person to travel on the Cross Country train you took. If needed, in giving permission to travel on the next service after the EMT being cancelled, then it is for member of staff to ask what type of ticket you hold/or to see it before giving such permission.

I also do not agree that ticket acceptance only applies during major disruption. Sometimes it is better for all concerned, staff and railway staff, following severe delay/cancellation of a train to authorise passengers to travel on the next train regardless of operator. It keeps people moving and gets rid of a train load of passengers for the staff to have to deal with otherwise. Best outcome for all. It is for EMT to sort out with XC though. However, if you've had permission that it is not your problem if the railway have messed it up.

The attitude and approach by the XC Train Manager, if what you are saying is true, is disgusting. I do not like the Police being used as a threat to try and get people to comply with what they want. It is a form of bullying and it is not some ace card that can be pulled on a passenger by certain employees when they see fit or don't get their own way. The Police are not the railway's private "rent a thug" and they are there to serve anyone. The XC staff member clearly was wasting Police time and it was not a Police matter. If you had permission to travel then it is certainly not a Police matter. How long were you delayed in terms of both your arrival into Derby following your cancelled train and also, upon arrival, how long was spent dealing with the Police?

There really does seem to be a very militant approach being taken by XC train managers across the country. I wonder why this is? This would normally not be advisable for a lone worker working in a customer facing role.

 

[221129]

Oh to complete the answer it was a mobile advanced ticket. So yes I guess only valid on the booked train, but surely if that train is cancelled you don't have to pay again?

So you didn't have a valid ticket. Glad we have cleared that up.

 

[221129]

To the OP, what was the exact question you asked the staff at Sheffield and what was the exact conversation you had on board?

 

[gray1404]

To the OP, what was the exact question you asked the staff at Sheffield and what was the exact conversation you had on board?

Yes we need to know the exactly what happened at Sheffield. If you were given permission though, either upon them knowing what ticket you had or indeed if they gave general permission to all persons effected by the cancelled train regardless of ticket type, then it cannot be said you were travelling with an invalid ticket. Rather you were given permission to travel on your existing ticket under the circumstances.

It really does show how broken up this industry is though. Cancelled train and you can't go on the next train always because its a different company.

 

[404250]

What if there was only one EMT services a day and you had an advance ticket for that and it was cancelled? Would cross country expect those passengers to travel the next day with EMT? Ridiculous

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

What if there was only one EMT services a day and you had an advance ticket for that and it was cancelled? Would cross country expect those passengers to travel the next day with EMT? Ridiculous

The situation does depend on this. You have an automatic right to travel on the next service by the same company if your booked train is cancelled. However, if there are no more services by the same company on the same day, then any company in a position to assist you must do so. That would, for all practical purposes and intents, mean that CrossCountry would then have to pick up an EMT passenger free of charge if the last EMT train of the day had been cancelled.

It is not a rule that I agree with, that passengers should have to wait for the next service by the same company, and neither is it a rule that is well explained when buying a ticket. But unfortunately it is the rule - and you are only exempted from it if you have been given permission to board another company's train without your ticket being ordinarily valid on it.

 

[CrossAtCountry]

The situation does depend on this. You have an automatic right to travel on the next service by the same company if your booked train is cancelled. However, if there are no more services by the same company on the same day, then any company in a position to assist you must do so. That would, for all practical purposes and intents, mean that CrossCountry would then have to pick up an EMT passenger free of charge if the last EMT train of the day had been cancelled.

It is not a rule that I agree with, that passengers should have to wait for the next service by the same company, and neither is it a rule that is well explained when buying a ticket. But unfortunately it is the rule - and you are only exempted from it if you have been given permission to board another company's train without your ticket being ordinarily valid on it.

Well yes a previous time we were on the EMTrain it wasn’t working so the guard told everyone to get off and catch the cross country train at platform 6. If it’s purely a concession due to travel disruption then how are we supposed to know that concession has been formally agreed between the two companies or not?

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

Well yes a previous time we were on the EMTrain it wasn’t working so the guard told everyone to get off and catch the cross country train at platform 6. If it’s purely a concession due to travel disruption then how are we supposed to know that concession has been formally agreed between the two companies or not?

You will be told if it has been agreed. If you haven't been told a concession exists, you can't assume there is one. But I agree that it is quite understandable that people wouldn't know that these are the rules.

 

[najaB]

f it’s purely a concession due to travel disruption then how are we supposed to know that concession has been formally agreed between the two companies or not?

If you are specifically told that you can use a train provided by another TOC then there's no doubt. Other than that, you need to ask "Can I use that train with this ticket?"

 

[CrossAtCountry]

If you are specifically told that you can use a train provided by another TOC then there's no doubt. Other than that, you need to ask "Can I use that train with this ticket?"

Well yes i was told I could use Xc. I think the pedants would say I wasn’t told that I wouldn’t have to buy another ticket at full price to do so.

 

[CrossAtCountry]

I believe you are being asked not if it was a mobile or paper ticket, but was it an Advance ticket or an Off Peak or Anytime ticket? Also was there any "routing on the ticket? E.g. Any Permitted or EMT Only or something similar.

I would say in this case, if your account is true, upon the EMT train being cancelled you received permission from the Authorised Person to travel on the Cross Country train you took. If needed, in giving permission to travel on the next service after the EMT being cancelled, then it is for member of staff to ask what type of ticket you hold/or to see it before giving such permission.

I also do not agree that ticket acceptance only applies during major disruption. Sometimes it is better for all concerned, staff and railway staff, following severe delay/cancellation of a train to authorise passengers to travel on the next train regardless of operator. It keeps people moving and gets rid of a train load of passengers for the staff to have to deal with otherwise. Best outcome for all. It is for EMT to sort out with XC though. However, if you've had permission that it is not your problem if the railway have messed it up.

The attitude and approach by the XC Train Manager, if what you are saying is true, is disgusting. I do not like the Police being used as a threat to try and get people to comply with what they want. It is a form of bullying and it is not some ace card that can be pulled on a passenger by certain employees when they see fit or don't get their own way. The Police are not the railway's private "rent a thug" and they are there to serve anyone. The XC staff member clearly was wasting Police time and it was not a Police matter. If you had permission to travel then it is certainly not a Police matter. How long were you delayed in terms of both your arrival into Derby following your cancelled train and also, upon arrival, how long was spent dealing with the Police?

There really does seem to be a very militant approach being taken by XC train managers across the country. I wonder why this is? This would normally not be advisable for a lone worker working in a customer facing role.

Yes I think whilst both otc s are probably at fault by anger is mainly at xc. Emt may have made an honest mistake. But as you say the xc guard was a bully and called the police who straightaway said this wasn’t a police matter. the very most he should have done would be take my name and address not call the police.

 

[najaB]

Well yes i was told I could use Xc.

Were you told you could use XC with the ticket you held?

 

[Deafdoggie]

If the type of ticket held matters, then the onus must be on the staff to check before giving permission to travel. If a customer asks if they can catch the next train, and are not asked what ticket they have, how are they supposed to know?

 

[Clip]

Told both by EMT guy at sheffield and lady at station managers office that next train to Derby was Cross country train

If the type of ticket held matters, then the onus must be on the staff to check before giving permission to travel. If a customer asks if they can catch the next train, and are not asked what ticket they have, how are they supposed to know?

From the OP it really does just sound as if the OP just asked the next train to Derby from what they state - not if they could catch it on the ticket as held.

 

[38Cto15E]

I think summoning the Police is an over reaction if the OP had provided verified name/address details.
I am looking at going on the Greater Anglia short set Class 37's in a couple of weeks and there is a possibility of a similar situation arising for me.
Ely to Norwich single with railcard is £11.90 with Greater Anglia and £4.15 with East Mids Trains, the EMT set travels from Liverpool and can run late, so if I have a EMT single and the 1318 EMT is say 30 mins late, then I would not be allowed to travel on the GA 1328 service without buying a new ticket?
My past trips I have bought the Anglia Rover which is valid with both TOC's, something I may do again this trip to circumvent any future problems. TIA

 

[CrossAtCountry]

If you are specifically told that you can use a train provided by another TOC then there's no doubt. Other than that, you need to ask "Can I use that train with this ticket?"

I refer the honourable gentleman to the answer i gave some time ago:

"Both people at sheffield knew the train had been cancelled. Neither asked what type of ticket I had".

 

[CaptainHaddock]

I refer the honourable gentleman to the answer i gave some time ago:

"Both people at sheffield knew the train had been cancelled. Neither asked what type of ticket I had".

How is the guard on the train supposed to know that "EMT guy at sheffield" had said you could use an EMT-specific ticket on a Cross Country train? Whenever I've had similar issues at Sheffield I've asked at the Customer Service desk next to the booking office to give me some form of written authorisation, be that endorsing my ticket or writing a note on an EMT-headed comp slip.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

How is the guard on the train supposed to know that "EMT guy at sheffield" had said you could use an EMT-specific ticket on a Cross Country train? Whenever I've had similar issues at Sheffield I've asked at the Customer Service desk next to the booking office to give me some form of written authorisation, be that endorsing my ticket or writing a note on an EMT-headed comp slip.

That is not the customer's problem. To avoid this situation companies could bar staff from giving verbal permission.

 

[cuccir]

I refer the honourable gentleman to the answer i gave some time ago:

"Both people at sheffield knew the train had been cancelled. Neither asked what type of ticket I had".

But did they know that you had a ticket for that train?

A train is cancelled. 5 minutes later some arrives at the ticket office and says "when's the next train for Derby"? Now a diligent member of staff might well ask if you had a ticket for the recently cancelled train, but I also don't see that they should have to - you might have just walked in from the street. So it matters if you made it clear whether or not you had a ticket for the recently cancelled train.

How is the guard on the train supposed to know that "EMT guy at sheffield" had said you could use an EMT-specific ticket on a Cross Country train? Whenever I've had similar issues at Sheffield I've asked at the Customer Service desk next to the booking office to give me some form of written authorisation, be that endorsing my ticket or writing a note on an EMT-headed comp slip.

While this diligence is advisable because it reduces the problems that a traveller will face, it's also not fundamentally up to the traveller to this. There shouldn't be any expectation to go above and beyond in getting this information.

In some ways, the two issues quoted here are very similar. Ideally, the passenger would make it clear what sort of ticket they have. Ideally, the staff would make some efforts to check the tickets held, particularly when there's been disruption. But I don't see an obligation on either group to do this.

 

[najaB]

So it matters if you made it clear whether or not you had a ticket for the recently cancelled train.

Exactly. "When's the next train to Derby" is a different question to "When's the next train I can take to Derby".

 

[GB71]

Unfortunately the reason I lurk but rarely contribute to any threads on here is exactly because of the pedantic nature of some of the veteran members on here who seem to delight in splitting hairs.

However I consider myself very well versed on the inticacies of the rail network and thought I would share a recent experience to prove that for the pedants on here unfortunately it is not as simple as you like to claim.

TPE cancelled as they all too frequently do a service. I specifically asked the TPE uniformed staff on the barrier at Manchester Picc "Is mutual ticket acceptance in place with EMT as I have a TPE only ticket" I was clearly told ticket acceptance had been agreed. I thought I would try a second time and again asked the same specific question of the help desk on the central concourse at Piccadilly to get the exact same answer - TPE tickets will be accepted by EMT.

Guess what on the train the EMT guard although perfectly happy to let me travel said he had definitely not been told mutual ticket acceptance was in place.

I will now retire to just reading with amusement again.

 

[CrossAtCountry]

But did they know that you had a ticket for that train?

A train is cancelled. 5 minutes later some arrives at the ticket office and says "when's the next train for Derby"? Now a diligent member of staff might well ask if you had a ticket for the recently cancelled train, but I also don't see that they should have to - you might have just walked in from the street. So it matters if you made it clear whether or not you had a ticket for the recently cancelled train.



While this diligence is advisable because it reduces the problems that a traveller will face, it's also not fundamentally up to the traveller to this. There shouldn't be any expectation to go above and beyond in getting this information.

In some ways, the two issues quoted here are very similar. Ideally, the passenger would make it clear what sort of ticket they have. Ideally, the staff would make some efforts to check the tickets held, particularly when there's been disruption. But I don't see an obligation on either group to do this.

Yes, they both would have known I had a ticket for the cancelled train because I discussed the cancellation of "my train" with them, and I asked about alternative trains.

 

[cuccir]

Yes, they both would have known I had a ticket for the cancelled train because I discussed the cancellation of "my train" with them, and I asked about alternative trains.

Good stuff. I think the EMT staff were lacking in diligence really in not checking further as they should have tried to establish exactly what ticket you held BUT as a customer I don't see what more you can do - it's not up to you to preempt what questions they should be asking.

Unfortunately the reason I lurk but rarely contribute to any threads on here is exactly because of the pedantic nature of some of the veteran members on here who seem to delight in splitting hairs.

However I consider myself very well versed on the inticacies of the rail network and thought I would share a recent experience to prove that for the pedants on here unfortunately it is not as simple as you like to claim.

TPE cancelled as they all too frequently do a service. I specifically asked the TPE uniformed staff on the barrier at Manchester Picc "Is mutual ticket acceptance in place with EMT as I have a TPE only ticket" I was clearly told ticket acceptance had been agreed. I thought I would try a second time and again asked the same specific question of the help desk on the central concourse at Piccadilly to get the exact same answer - TPE tickets will be accepted by EMT.

Guess what on the train the EMT guard although perfectly happy to let me travel said he had definitely not been told mutual ticket acceptance was in place.

I will now retire to just reading with amusement again.

Well yes; almost all rules include the capacity for discretion. That discretion doesn't change the rule.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Good stuff. I think the EMT staff were lacking in diligence really in not checking further as they should have tried to establish exactly what ticket you held BUT as a customer I don't see what more you can do - it's not up to you to preempt what questions they should be asking.

Two things here.

1. Yes, any member of staff being asked about when the next train to X is should ask for a ticket these days, as the question is invariably actually "when is the next train I can use with my ticket". The passenger can always say "I haven't bought one yet".

2. As has long been my view, staff who are authorised to allow exceptions to ticket validity should carry a numbered pad to issue such authority (so any incorrectly given authority becomes an internal disciplinary or training issue), and it should never be given verbally.