GWR Class 800

[Japan0913]

I'm not sure about them not being in the European market, if it means they can deliver a product which, at the time of order nobody else can, clearly it's worthwhile. Bi-mode units stuck on diesel a lot of the time is still better than regular DMUs that run on diesel all the time. Nonetheless I agree, there was an expectation that the level of reliability normally seen in Japanese products would be present in Hitachi's rail products and it simply isn't there, which is odd really since Japanese cars manufactured in Europe, USA etc. still seem reasonably good. I would consider Hitachi still a bit better than Bombardier mainly due to their ability to introduce trains somewhat on-time without 'return to sender' defects. Fit and finish on the 395s is still better than units produced at Derby. 800/802s I think it remains to be seen, so far signs aren't especially promising but the worst affected areas are DfT-spec, not Hitachi-spec.

Hitachi uses British parts and
Hitachi hired British and Italian for assembly.
If you get used properly, you will grow up to be a good worker.
We accepted the difference between Japan and culture, manufacturing and driving habits.

I do not think that manufacturing in Japan was good.

 

[fgwrich]

Not meaningless at all, and what LNER is doing is not really relevant when discussing GWR. You clearly cannot see how having diesels under everything on GWR gives Hitachi a get out when they have non-electric restrictions.

The British government has made a policy change.
It is wrong of you who is to blame for Hitachi.

I don't see how it is wrong at all. Hitachi has been lucky, as @43096 has told you, that as a result of more Bi-Modes being ordered, they have a get out from failing to provide a set for service when there is a fault relating to using the OHLE.

And as pointed out above, Hitachi did come over here promising Japanese Super levels of reliability and trains derived from the Bullet Trains of old. Well, as I posted last week, the 9 minute to reach 110 800 on diesel was hardly very Bullet at all - from a unit which has had a gen set fault for some time! Which, had it been electric only would have cost Hitachi for not providing a unit for service.

As for your other post about Hitachi using British and Components - Yes it does, stipulated by the DfT in the wake of the Bombardier vs Siemens Thameslink fall out. However, it still is less than Siemens and clearly doesn’t trust the U.K. with its welding (but oddly does trust it’s Italian factory), meaning Newton Aycliffe is still just an assembly factory.

 

[fgwrich]

As for the quality coming out of Pistoia, I was quite surprised to see this rather rushed job around a few of the door frames on the 802 fleet recently. Not something I’d expect to see from a manufacturer like this!

(Yes these are public facing pieces of metal!)

 

[43096]

As for the quality coming out of Pistoia, I was quite surprised to see this rather rushed job around a few of the door frames on the 802 fleet recently. Not something I’d expect to see from a manufacturer like this!

(Yes these are public facing pieces of metal!)

I’m not that surprised tbh. Pistoia has a long history of turning out appalling products; it would frankly be a miracle if Hitachi could fix that attitude and culture in such a short time.

 

[Japan0913]

As for the quality coming out of Pistoia, I was quite surprised to see this rather rushed job around a few of the door frames on the 802 fleet recently. Not something I’d expect to see from a manufacturer like this!

(Yes these are public facing pieces of metal!)

I’m not that surprised tbh. Pistoia has a long history of turning out appalling products; it would frankly be a miracle if Hitachi could fix that attitude and culture in such a short time.

This is terrible work,
do you know the model number of this train?
Review of workers in Italy
To prevent further problems
It will be needed internal investigation

 

[43096]

This is terrible work,
do you know the model number of this train?
Review of workers in Italy
To prevent further problems
It will be needed internal investigation

You've not heard of the Fyra fiasco? Entire fleet rejected by NS and SNCB and sent back to Italy.

Or the Danish IC4s? Years late with numerous problems and some sets already scrapped. One set went missing and was discovered in Libya, having been gifted to Colonel Gaddafi by Silvio Bercusoni!

I think this on the side of a Fyra sums it up...

 

[Japan0913]

You've not heard of the Fyra fiasco? Entire fleet rejected by NS and SNCB and sent back to Italy.

Or the Danish IC4s? Years late with numerous problems and some sets already scrapped. One set went missing and was discovered in Libya, having been gifted to Colonel Gaddafi by Silvio Bercusoni!

I think this on the side of a Fyra sums it up...
View attachment 61504

Now　ETR-700

Once upon a time of devastation I know.
Hitachi is wanted only AnsaldSTS.
Just Breda production base in Buregujitto of the UK became valuable.

 

[Bikeman78]

I've noticed an un-welcome uptick in diesel only ops under the miles of expensive electrified infrastructure lately. Not as bad as it was before christmas but currently sat on one of the god damned machines giving us lots of noise and pollution under expensive wires. Anecdotally I've noticed the diesel part becoming much noisier as the trains settle in but YMMV.

Perhaps I'm unlucky but I don't think I've managed a round trip to Paddington where trains have run on electric power both ways. What is causing this? There can't be that many faulty pantographs. It's not really a problem now but it will cause big delays from December onwards.

 

[II]

Perhaps I'm unlucky...

Depends how many trips you've done I suppose? The current number of restricted units is around the 15 mark. It was zero a month or so ago, but was much worse than 15 about three months ago. It is not really a 'problem' at the moment in that IETs on diesel can more or less keep to the Sectional Running Times, but will need sorting in time for the December timetable when diesel units will lose time, especially if on Bristol/South Wales duties.

 

[Grumbler]

Depends how many trips you've done I suppose? The current number of restricted units is around the 15 mark. It was zero a month or so ago, but was much worse than 15 about three months ago. It is not really a 'problem' at the moment in that IETs on diesel can more or less keep to the Sectional Running Times, but will need sorting in time for the December timetable when diesel units will lose time, especially if on Bristol/South Wales duties.

It will also be a problem as questions will be asked why £billions have been spent electrifying the line only to run diesels along it.

 

[Master29]

A bit of a crossover with this as it involves the LNER 800`s. I`ve noticed that the layout of the GWR 9 car units in coach A are different from the LNER ones by 4 seats. 52 as opposed to 48 on LNER. I know they each have slightly different specs but there seems more room at the very rear on GWR`s 9 car variant as they are missing 2 large casings where there are 4 more seats available here. This isn`t the case with GWR`s 5 car units where the casings are present. The same with both LNER 5 and 9 car variants. Why in this case would these casings be absent on the GWR 9 car versions. Could it just be a different placing for electrical equipment? Just curious.

 

[northernbelle]

I am on an 802 in Cornwall at the moment. Seems solid enough and no rattles to report - I wonder if it's an issue affecting specific vehicles?

 

[CptCharlee]

Saw today that a 2x5 IET had to have all passengers in the front unit as the second 5 car 800 was closed off due to crew shortages.

This is something the DfT were warned would happen and it has. But they knew best didn't they. More 9 cars should have ordered and not the 2x5 combo they went with.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Or maybe the Union should pack in requiring a guard in both halves. Plenty of TOCs manage just fine without it.

 

[cactustwirly]

Or maybe the Union should pack in requiring a guard in both halves. Plenty of TOCs manage just fine without it.

They have, there's only 1 guard, but the other set has a specially trained catering host, whom I assume was unavailable for this particular service

 

[irish_rail]

Saw today that a 2x5 IET had to have all passengers in the front unit as the second 5 car 800 was closed off due to crew shortages.

This is something the DfT were warned would happen and it has. But they knew best didn't they. More 9 cars should have ordered and not the 2x5 combo they went with.

Quite. This won't be a problem on the important routes soon as they will all be 9 and 5s. Only the irrelevant pad to pz route will be affected, and everyone knows it's not a route that matters....not to GWR anyway......

 

[Master29]

Quite. This won't be a problem on the important routes soon as they will all be 9 and 5s. Only the irrelevant pad to pz route will be affected, and everyone knows it's not a route that matters....not to GWR anyway......

You can only wonder at the comments on sites like tripadvisor which are already now pretty appalling about the 800`s on the Penzance route once the season starts in earnest in Devon and Cornwall. Contrary to what many on this forum think the seasons has already started there and it`s only going to get worse. Yes there`ll be more seats to be sure but those trolley`s are never going to get down those aisles. Taking the buffet section away on this route will prove a big mistake. You`ve only got to look at cross-country's voyagers to know that. They don`t even bother taking the trolley out when it gets too busy, which is a regular occurrence with XC.

 

[cactustwirly]

Quite. This won't be a problem on the important routes soon as they will all be 9 and 5s. Only the irrelevant pad to pz route will be affected, and everyone knows it's not a route that matters....not to GWR anyway......

Well the world doesn't revolve around Plymouth and Penzance, where the demand is very seasonal.
Contrasted to the Cardiff and Bristol routes, which are busy all year round, with the more lucrative business and commuter traffic

 

[Master29]

Well the world doesn't revolve around Plymouth and Penzance, where the demand is very seasonal.
Contrasted to the Cardiff and Bristol routes, which are busy all year round, with the more lucrative business and commuter traffic

The problem there is that the season is most of the year now. Incidentally, There seems a great many 9 car trains going to Worcester and Great Malvern. Are those stations busier than Plymouth to Penzance I wonder during non seasonal periods. I doubt that. The splitting of 2x5 can be used both ways as an argument.

 

[Bletchleyite]

They have, there's only 1 guard, but the other set has a specially trained catering host, whom I assume was unavailable for this particular service

There shouldn't be a need for anything. Plenty of other TOCs run trains with units with no staff at all in them on a day to day basis, or have done in the recent past, e.g. all GWR Turbos in multiple.

Or worst case, guard in one driver in the other.

 

[43096]

Well the world doesn't revolve around Plymouth and Penzance, where the demand is very seasonal.
Contrasted to the Cardiff and Bristol routes, which are busy all year round, with the more lucrative business and commuter traffic

So just dumb down to the lowest common denominator? Which has been where Great Western has been heading for the last 10 years, with DfT complicit in doing so.

 

[cactustwirly]

The problem there is that the season is most of the year now. Incidentally, There seems a great many 9 car trains going to Worcester and Great Malvern. Are those stations busier than Plymouth to Penzance I wonder during non seasonal periods. I doubt that. The splitting of 2x5 can be used both ways as an argument.

They're mostly 5 car sets, there's a few 9 cars, these replaced the HST diagrams, and form busy peak time services where 9 cars are required

 

[JonathanH]

Also, platform time / stabling arrangements at Oxford are very different from those at Plymouth for splitting trains there.

 

[Bletchleyite]

So just dumb down to the lowest common denominator? Which has been where Great Western has been heading for the last 10 years, with DfT complicit in doing so.

Reading commuters being the tail wagging the dog is one example of this. Mind you it's by no means the worst example of that practice - Manchester Airport is probably worse.

The Penzance service is so different from the rest of GWR that it deserves a different approach more tailored to long journeys. No reason that couldn't be an 80x, of course, but I'd be thinking low density seating with lots of tables, extra luggage space, a family coach with play area and a walk-up DB-style restaurant car (the Pullman service is great, but won't appeal to families).

 

[Japan0913]

They're mostly 5 car sets, there's a few 9 cars, these replaced the HST diagrams, and form busy peak time services where 9 cars are required

Next franchisor.
In the appeal for the Worcester-Kidderminster-Birmingham?　Extended Service
In the appeal for the Oxford-Banbury-Leamington Spa-Stratford-upon-Avon？　Extended Service

 

[irish_rail]

They're mostly 5 car sets, there's a few 9 cars, these replaced the HST diagrams, and form busy peak time services where 9 cars are required

No plenty of 9 car off peaks running on the cotswold and to and from oxford by no means restricted to the rush hour.
And as mentioned the season in the south west starts around now and runs to November with Christmas also busy so really only about 3 months of the year quiet down here these days. People holiday very differently now than they used to with lots of smaller breaks throughout the year as opposed to the traditional 2 weeks in the summer.
And no, the world doesn't revolve around Plymouth and Penzance but Devon Cornwall and Somerset have a decent sized population with many people who do not drive and do not have other transport options. The trains are very busy with locals not just visitors trust me.....

 

[jimm]

The problem there is that the season is most of the year now. Incidentally, There seems a great many 9 car trains going to Worcester and Great Malvern. Are those stations busier than Plymouth to Penzance I wonder during non seasonal periods. I doubt that. The splitting of 2x5 can be used both ways as an argument.

No plenty of 9 car off peaks running on the cotswold and to and from oxford by no means restricted to the rush hour.

How many more times do we need to keep going over the same ground?

We did this only the other week, the last time that irish_rail mentioned yet again how unfair it is that no one wants to run half-empty 650-seat trains all the way through Cornwall for large parts of the year. Please don't pretend that the number of people travelling west of Plymouth from September until just before Easter is on a par with the high summer - when the rolling stock allocations are altered to reflect the increase.

On that occasion, I pointed out that the trains that are "by no means restricted to the rush hour" almost invariably reach Oxford from Hereford and Worcester at a point in the afternoon which is the peak, by any rational definition, with large number of people heading to Reading and London boarding there, and that when they eventually get to London, they immediately form peak workings back out again - but apparently that's not stopped the same 'economical with the actuality' line being trotted out yet again.

The rough percentage split on current Cotswold Line IET allocations is that 60 per cent of services are worked by five-car sets (basically former 180 and Turbo workings) and 40 per cent (running in the weekday peaks and the busiest parts of the weekend) are nine-car sets (mostly ex-HST duties, as cactustwirly says). And that's not likely to change much with the new timetable.

Can we please stop pretending that everyone who gets on a London train at Penzance or Truro and vice-versa is going to stay on the train for the entire journey and wants to eat in a restaurant car? A number of posters on this forum may be deeply obsessed by Pullman restaurants - by and large the average passenger isn't and will never eat in one, even when the opportunity is there.

The service in Cornwall is being overhauled over the coming months, with some of the extra regional services starting from May and then a regular 2tph service both ways coming in with the new timetable, giving more options for local journeys and taking pressure off the longer-distance workings as a result. There is no prospect of 2tph all day both ways on the Cotswold Line without another substantial investment in extra infrastructure.

Taunton and Exeter journey times to and from London are comparable with those for London-Cotswolds/Worcester. The faster London-Plymouth trains have much the same journey times as London-Hereford. Maybe we should start demanding the return of restaurant cars and low-density coaches on the Cathedrals Express? Though fitting in a silver-service breakfast between Oxford and London might be a bit of a push... (joke)

 

[Master29]

Also, platform time / stabling arrangements at Oxford are very different from those at Plymouth for splitting trains there.

I don`t see that this should make any difference.

Reading commuters being the tail wagging the dog is one example of this. Mind you it's by no means the worst example of that practice - Manchester Airport is probably worse.

The Penzance service is so different from the rest of GWR that it deserves a different approach more tailored to long journeys. No reason that couldn't be an 80x, of course, but I'd be thinking low density seating with lots of tables, extra luggage space, a family coach with play area and a walk-up DB-style restaurant car (the Pullman service is great, but won't appeal to families).

"The tail wagging the dog". That`s a new one on me. I get the meaning though and I agree. Far more West of England trains should go straight through Reading given there is now more capacity between there and Paddington. You`re spot on about Penzance trains. I doubt GWR would consider a play area for children even though it`s a good idea. DB style catering would be very useful too. Here`s hoping.

 

[Master29]

Jimm. Have you ever journeyed to or from Cornwall at all by rail?. I`ve also said before I don`t have a problem on certain services being split but every train I`ve got on most mornings and I`ve done this for many years is usually nearly full after Truro. Contrast this with the many 9 car trains from Worcester and the Malverns as Irish rail rightly points out and there is a valid criticism. If as you say it`s to fit peak service demand why in that case are those trains not split. It works both ways. You can`t say one can have 9 car and the others have to split. Anyone who uses the West of England line would tell you longer trains are necessary most of the time. Yes. I understand there is going to be more peak services ph when needed as there should be but that doesn`t reflect travel from London to the south west. You are clearly misinformed about the differences in the numbers of people visiting Devon and Cornwall which are much higher for longer periods of the year and yes, they can and do reach the summer holiday levels at other times of the year and quite regularly. I guarantee this would be far more than visitors to Worcester and the Malverns.
As an aside, didn`t GWR use the class 180`s which clearly had smaller capacity on this route. I never remember a class 180 making it into Cornwall which goes to show the point.
You also have a vendetta against buffets on the 800`s for some reasons when virtually everyone I know doesn`t. Of course some won`t use them but GWR have this wrong on the West of England for sure. It`s not about a Pullman service either.

 

[coppercapped]

I don`t see that this should make any difference.

Oxford has two through platforms, one in each direction, where trains could be split and joined. It has an intensive service with at least six passenger trains per hour running to and from the south. Plymouth has several parallel platforms.
Now consider the issues which could arise at Oxford if there are difficulties in joining trains or that one part is late. Do you hold the first part and block the platform for all other trains? Do you have a train crew to work the first part onwards? They may already be working a train back in the other direction. The situation would be more complicated if the delayed section is running behind another train. How do you get the second part to leap-frog this train to couple to the first part?

A bit of consideration will show you why the situations are different and why, with the present layout, no train planner in their right mind would attempt to separate and join trains there.

"The tail wagging the dog". That`s a new one on me. I get the meaning though and I agree. Far more West of England trains should go straight through Reading given there is now more capacity between there and Paddington. You`re spot on about Penzance trains. I doubt GWR would consider a play area for children even though it`s a good idea. DB style catering would be very useful too. Here`s hoping.

Neil has a bee in his bonnet about the 'Reading Commuter'. Reading is the second busiest interchange station on the railways outside London with over 4 million people a year changing trains - that's 11,500 per day. How will you ensure that passengers off the West of England trains will continue their journeys if they don't happen to be going to Paddington?