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GWR Class 800
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swt_passenger
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More legroom - yes,
More tables - yes,
Covered numerous times already in this thread - yes...
Close the thread then as everything else has been discussed as well.
Reliablebeam
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I've noticed an un-welcome uptick in diesel only ops under the miles of expensive electrified infrastructure lately. Not as bad as it was before christmas but currently sat on one of the god damned machines giving us lots of noise and pollution under expensive wires. Anecdotally I've noticed the diesel part becoming much noisier as the trains settle in but YMMV.
Well the chap sitting across from me this morning was very grateful when I pointed out the window blind, as the sun was coming through the window at an angle that made it impossible to see his laptop screen - he was happy as Larry once the blind was down.
It may be a typo on your part, but Pistoia hasn't built a single Class 800 - all it is building are 802s.
irish_rail
On Moderation
Yes the diesel engines are rather noticeable. I had the pleasure of travelling in a 9 car on a non motored coach today and it actually resembled an intercity experience.
Unfortunately the mainly 5 car sets on my route do not provide so much luxury with the non motored coaches taken up by first class and the always heavily reserved quiet coach giving little choice but to travel in the noisy underfloor engine coaches. And yes it is subjective what the coach environment is like and this is my view.
reddragon
Established Member
Excellent ventilation!
Goldfish62
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I do know that all unauthorised use of diesel when electric can be used is investigated and drivers asked to explain themselves. No idea why there should be an increase in diesel operation, though.
irish_rail
On Moderation
Lots and lots of diesel only units at moment is why , it's a shame because up until a few weeks ago there were only a handful of diesel only sets this is now sky rocketing. You'd have to ask Hitachi (not drivers) why this is. Operation of pairs of 5 cars is not helping as if one of the two sets is diesel only then they both become diesel only......
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
After about half an hour when the cushion has flattened down and most of my weight is on that stupid metal bar, there's not a lot of difference between an 800 seat and a park bench.
43096
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Ironic really, seeing as they were meant to be primarily electric trains with diesel use limited to beyond the wires. The impression gained is that this has encouraged slack maintenance from Hitachi - bet DfT didn’t put any penalties in the contract for it though!
Bletchleyite & 43096 Why is always say only bad things about Hitachi?
Someone's been instructed to "Hate Speach"?
It's very unpleasant!
Someone's been instructed to "Hate Speach"?
It's very unpleasant!
cactustwirly
Established Member
Because the trains they've built, have a really bad build quality, compared to Siemens, Stadler and even Bombardier!
TractiveEffort
Member
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Current issues are nothing to do with slack maintenance, sometimes these things happen and when it’s an external supplier, there is not much you can do about it, I have seen problems with all sorts of fleets, including HST, that are totally out of the maintainers hands.
I think your muddling up the actual terms of Hate Speech.
It isn’t however a crime to point out the poor quality workmanship of Hitachi. Or bombardier, or Alstom for that matter. 15/20 years ago the spotlight was on the poor workmanship coming out of Alstom and it’s Juniper fleets.
Here we are in 2019, pointing out the flaws and faults in Hitachis workmanship - of Which seems to vary between its Italian and U.K. plants. The designs are poor in various aspects, the build quality is poor in various aspects. Whether or not the 80X fleet is a worthy successor to the Brilliance of the HST is open to debate, however It is not hate speech to point these flawes out. Indeed Next time, have a look at the incredibly bad painting of the door frames on an 802 - for something that’s supposed to have been delivered fully painted in green, it’s impressively poor workmanship. I have a photo somewhere but will try to upload it later.
Siemens barely gets any criticism on here (up to the 700s) because they manage to make stock that seems to work. And last. No frills Desiro Units that seem to work, day to day, with very little fuss. And with quality materials too - I have never been in a Desiro that has had rattling panels, or that you could hear the traction motors through the main saloon. Both of which have been mentioned in here as flawes to the 80X series. If Hitachi wants to taut them as some of their best, then they need to show it. Because right now they’re not. As proven by the 800 pair that has just come into the station I’m at running on Diesel together.
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Are anti Hitchi people good appeals directly to the manufacturer?
Hitachi Rail Limited https://twitter.com/HitachiRailEU
Hitachi Rail SpA(Italy) https://twitter.com/HitachiRailIT
GWR Help https://twitter.com/GWRHelp
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Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
It's mainly the seats I dislike, these are I think Italian. But the build quality is poor too.
I like the Javelin EMUs which don't have these issues.
Goldfish62
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Fainsa is Spanish.
43096
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I did say the impression gained! And you can’t get away from the fact Hitachi have a get out with the diesels: had the 800/3 fleet been built as 801s as planned, they’d have a much bigger problem.
43096
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Hitachi came over with all the promises of “Japanese levels of reliability” and have been found wanting. Even the 395 fleet is bang average in reliability terms with Siemens in particular being much better. That’s before we start on build quality, where Siemens and Stadler have been ahead of the field.
I do not believe Hitachi should be in the European market at all - the Japanese rail sector is not exactly a level playing field with the market closed to the European builders.
If you have an issue with that, that’s your problem. And it is not “hate speech” or even remotely close to it.
samuelmorris
Established Member
I'm not sure about them not being in the European market, if it means they can deliver a product which, at the time of order nobody else can, clearly it's worthwhile. Bi-mode units stuck on diesel a lot of the time is still better than regular DMUs that run on diesel all the time. Nonetheless I agree, there was an expectation that the level of reliability normally seen in Japanese products would be present in Hitachi's rail products and it simply isn't there, which is odd really since Japanese cars manufactured in Europe, USA etc. still seem reasonably good. I would consider Hitachi still a bit better than Bombardier mainly due to their ability to introduce trains somewhat on-time without 'return to sender' defects. Fit and finish on the 395s is still better than units produced at Derby. 800/802s I think it remains to be seen, so far signs aren't especially promising but the worst affected areas are DfT-spec, not Hitachi-spec.
What Does the EU-Japan Economic Partnership Agreement Mean for the Rail Industry?
20 Jun 2018
https://railway-news.com/eu-japan-agreement-rail-industry/
After four years of negotiations, the EU-Japan Free Trade Agreement is now in the final stages of ratification, with both sides aiming to bring the trade deal into force by early 2019.
JR East train: © Yuichi Kosio under licence CC BY 2.0
The overall object of this agreement is to increase trade flows between the EU and Japan, and once concluded, it will open up huge market opportunities for both sides.
One of the big winners will be the European rail industry, thanks to changes pushed through around public procurement – in particular the Operational Safety Clause (OSC). This OSC in the WTO Government Procurement Agreement (GPA) has allowed certain entities in Japan not to abide by GPA procurement rules. The EU-Japan deal is set to change this.
Currently, only 3.5% of public procurement in Japan comes from foreign firms, in part down to difficulties foreign suppliers face in the Japanese procurement market. This includes extensive use of the OSC to exclude foreign suppliers from being able to bid for public contracts, and also complex customer-supplier relationship requirements, which favour domestic bidders.
In addition, new bidders are often put off by the requirement that suppliers must be able to demonstrate past experience working in the Japanese market. Jonathan Nguyen, Public Affairs Manager at the Association of the European Rail Industry UNIFE, says:
“Japan is one of the major world rail markets and can therefore offer major business opportunities for the European rail supply industry. Nevertheless, foreign penetration on the Japanese rail market remains low, especially with respect to rolling stock”
“Although some European manufacturers have managed to enter the Japanese rail market on niches, mostly at the component level, the wide majority of European suppliers encounter major hurdles hampering their access to the market. There are several reasons for that, the most important being the OSC, which has effectively enabled Japanese public entities not to procure in a transparent, non-discriminatory manner.”
The EU-Japan talks have led to an agreement in principle that provides EU rail suppliers with better access to contracts put out for tender in by Japan’s central, regional and local governments by removing the OSC. Nguyen adds:
“The effect of this agreement is to exempt European firms from the application of the OSC.”
“This will apply within one year of when the agreement comes into force. In exchange the EU has granted Japanese suppliers partial access to the European railways procurement market.”
Japan has also agreed to accept an exchange of letters on railways – covering the Railway Industrial Dialogueand the Technical Expert Group on Railways – cementing the current co-operation between the two sides to the free trade agreement. An EU official says:
“Both initiatives, which were already launched while the negotiations were still ongoing, will continue in the future.”
“The success of the Railway Industry Dialogue will depend on the willingness of European companies to engage with the process.”
“Japanese railways operators have a genuine interest in EU products, but that interest is very much focused on innovative cutting- edge products. The Technical Expert Group will continue working on technical standards, which will help bring the EU and Japanese industries closer
together and remove regulatory trade barriers.”
So what does this all really mean for the European rail industry? Well, essentially it comes down to EU companies being able to participate in procurement bids in Japan on an equal footing with domestic businesses. Nguyen says:
“Progress was already achieved in 2014 with the ‘one-year package’ of measures on railways, which were helpful to begin increasing transparency in procurement and facilitating market penetration by European suppliers. Nevertheless, more needed to be done to level the playing field. This is why we welcomed the long-awaited announcement of the removal of the OSC.”
“[But] to ensure a level-playing field on respective markets, it is now key to ensure that commitments made by Japan are actually enforced and result in changes in business practices.”
“A strong and dedicated method to monitor rail procurement should be set up. It is also crucial that private or non- covered entities abide by codes of conduct to guarantee transparent and non-discriminatory treatment of European rail suppliers.”
Concerns have been raised regarding the recent privatisation of some Japan’s most important rail operators – Japan Rail (JR) East, JR Central and JR West, with further privatisations expected to follow. This is because they bring the operators concerned formally outside of the scope of both the GPA and upcoming free trade agreement because their purchases no longer fall under the definition of ‘public procurement’. But, as one EU official explains, these new companies have committed to honour open and fair procurement policies:
“To alleviate this [issue], the JR companies have – on their own initiative –made public statements emphasising their commitment to open and competitive procurement procedures as part of their business philosophy.”
“The Government of Japan has formally informed the European Commission of those commitments.”
French Eurostar: © Matthew Black under licence CC BY-SA 2.0
Trade relationships look set to greatly improve between Europe and Japan with the arrival of this new free trade agreement and businesses in the EU and Japan are keen to take advantage of this agreement.
One current EU Member State, however, faces uncertainty. With Brexit still looming, where does this leave the UK?
The UK won’t automatically get access to the EU’s existing deals after it exits in March 2019, but in this particular case Japan has said it wishes the EU deal to apply to the UK during the transition period, which is set to run until December 2020. It does mean that the EU-Japan deal must be in place before the UK formally exits the EU in March 2019. As a result the lead negotiators from both sides have said that it is a high priority to get it in force before then. Mauro Petriccione, the EU’s chief negotiator with Japan, said at a recent press conference:
“We have been cutting all administrative blockages and using all resources.”
However, with the UK keen to strike its own trade deals it is set to leave the EU’s Single Market and Customs Union. The UK has said it would like to copy and paste the deal with Japan after that, but the Financial Times reports that Japan wants a better deal. The newspaper writes that:
“while the UK is hoping to duplicate the wide-ranging access embodied in the Japan-EU trade pact, Japanese officials are hardening against offering an identical deal to a much smaller economy”.
Railway industry suppliers in the EU27 can look forward to greater access to the Japanese market in the near future. Those in the UK might be able to enjoy the benefits of the EPA for a while, but for them the future is uncertain.
Just a new era has begun.
Certainly Japan had been closed.
Japan up to now, a subsidiary of the operator was making a railway vehicle.
Already realized participation of Bombardier and Siemens.
Japan's construction industry is aging workers is manpower shortage.
European builders is now a huge chance.
However delivery times and quality are particularly tough.
A big city falls into chaos when it is not protected.
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Meaningless
LNER introduces 42 sets of Class 801
samuelmorris
Established Member
Indeed, if LNER's units fail to operate on electric mode the same way as GWR's and as often, there will be a big problem. I suspect, however, because GWR's fleet are all diesel-capable, switching to diesel mode is being used as a convenient way of dealing with faults slower than would otherwise be necessary. Hitachi are probably quite capable of rectifying the defects leading to diesel-only operation but simply aren't doing so to save on maintenance resource when diesel mode still sees the diagram operated and thus avoiding penalty(?).
Which doesn’t help Great Western does it? Which was originally due to have the 801s, but was switched to the 800/3s mostly due to the delays and now lack of electrification. So Hitachi did get lucky in the order having to be changed to provide more Bi-Modes than mostly electric. Otherwise GW would have been stuck with a large IEP fleet that wouldn’t be able to get any further than Didcot Parkway (Cardiff eventually).
43096
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- 23 Nov 2015
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- 16,920
Not meaningless at all, and what LNER is doing is not really relevant when discussing GWR. You clearly cannot see how having diesels under everything on GWR gives Hitachi a get out when they have non-electric restrictions.
Product of Fainsa is, it will be introduced in other businesses, such as TPE. Hitach are not the decided on their own.
If budget is a lot, we can introduce the any number of comfortable products.
Is it can not be helped in order to further increase the number of seats?
Because after the vehicle lighting has adopted the LED I think that white stand out. This would also be cost reduction.
The British government has made a policy change.
It is wrong of you who is to blame for Hitachi.
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