Options to electrify Ellesmere Port to Helsby?

[scrapy]

Is electrification nescesary? Would a Parry People Mover (or a more modern version of it) not be more cost effective? Hourly to connect to the TFW services at Helsby.

 

[Camden]

There are many level crossings on the Merseyrail network, whereas I understand there are none on London Underground lines.

Per the quote in Post #20, the ORR considers that level crossings increase the risk of public access to the third rail.

This has no bearing on expansion, other than that extensions couldn't involve level crossings. And despite that the level crossings the system already has have no third rail risk to the public (while level crossings have been suicide hotspots, since inception no one has been killed by the third rail on the Liverpool network) mitigations could be put in place to remove any alleged "risk" arising from any nearby pre-existing level crossings (of which there are not many - and none as far as Ellesmere Port to Helsby is concerned).

Complying with full separation from the public requirements for any expansions to the same standard as on LU is a given, considering the extent the network is already separated.

 

[Camden]

Also:

 

[Camden]

Is electrification nescesary? Would a Parry People Mover (or a more modern version of it) not be more cost effective? Hourly to connect to the TFW services at Helsby.

The journey involved isn't so much Ellesmere Port to Helsby, but instead creating a south outer Liverpool circle via a hub at Helsby. Connectivity into Liverpool and Manchester for people from Cheshire and North Wales, various options for people on the Wirral, etc. It also means that people from Ellesmere Port can get to Manchester by train frequently and reliably, when their own town can't support a dedicated route of its own.

Helsby now has two trains an hour to Manchester, one train an hour to Liverpool via the airport, and one to Chester/Wales - the latter two to go half hourly in due course. It's daft to have two connectivity routes like that separated from each other by such a short distance, when plugging them in amplifies their usefulness and travel options massively.

 

[VT 390]

Could Batteries be fitted to the 777's as it is such a short section?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Helsby now has two trains an hour to Manchester, one train an hour to Liverpool via the airport, and one to Chester/Wales - the latter two to go half hourly in due course. It's daft to have two connectivity routes like that separated from each other by such a short distance, when plugging them in amplifies their usefulness and travel options massively.

...for people who live in Overpool, Little Sutton and Ellesmere Port. Anyone from further away will just go via Chester.

I support it, but that's the reason why it's not been an important funding target.

 

[mrcaa]

...for people who live in Overpool, Little Sutton and Ellesmere Port. Anyone from further away will just go via Chester.

I support it, but that's the reason why it's not been an important funding target.

That would be over 60,000 people but I have no idea how that looks to rail planners in the grand scheme of things. It would be great if they could find a cost-effective way to make it happen though.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

This has no bearing on expansion, other than that extensions couldn't involve level crossings. And despite that the level crossings the system already has have no third rail risk to the public (while level crossings have been suicide hotspots, since inception no one has been killed by the third rail on the Liverpool network) mitigations could be put in place to remove any alleged "risk" arising from any nearby pre-existing level crossings (of which there are not many - and none as far as Ellesmere Port to Helsby is concerned).

Complying with full separation from the public requirements for any expansions to the same standard as on LU is a given, considering the extent the network is already separated.

This is untrue, I can think of at least one case that has received a fair bit of publicity. Though the case I'm thinking of involved other factors besides simple trespass. Google "Purple Aki" for further details.

 

[Greybeard33]

An internet search throws up numerous tragic examples of electrocution fatalities on Merseyrail over the years, both to rail workers and members of the public. For example:

A 13-year-old girl had been drinking cider before she tripped and fell on to a railway track and was electrocuted, the inquest into her death has heard.

Jennifer Williams, of Birkenhead, Wirral, had been camping for the night with friends on Moreton beach when the accident happened on 19 July last year [2006].

They were on their way to buy food when they crossed the line between Leasowe and Bidston railway stations.

The coroner recorded a verdict of death by misadventure at Wallasey Town Hall.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/merseyside/6993553.stm

 

[Camden]

An internet search throws up numerous tragic examples of electrocution fatalities on Merseyrail over the years, both to rail workers and members of the public. For example:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/merseyside/6993553.stm

One story from 2007 - which includes the text "Network Rail and Merseyrail have recently invested heavily in an extensive signage and fencing programme designed to keep people off the railway."

The points remain - especially given there would be no level crossings involved in the extension concerned here.

 

[Greybeard33]

One story from 2007 - which includes the text "Network Rail and Merseyrail have recently invested heavily in an extensive signage and fencing programme designed to keep people off the railway."

The points remain - especially given there would be no level crossings involved in the extension concerned here.

Your previous claim that

since inception no one has been killed by the third rail on the Liverpool network

was clearly incorrect.

The Merseyrail network does not have any special features to reduce the risk of electrocution compared with the third rail network in the South, and overall RSSB statistics show 16 times more casualties from third rail than from OLE, relative to the size of the respective networks. Therefore it will be extremely difficult for Network Rail to justify that any third rail extension scheme reduces the electrocution risk so far as is reasonably practicable, as required by the health and safety legislation.

 

[frodshamfella]

If the technology park on the refinery keeps developing and a few more houses were chucked in at Elton......

The Ince and Elton has seen housing developments, it would make a big difference for this area to have a useable rail service.

 

[Camden]

The Ince and Elton has seen housing developments, it would make a big difference for this area to have a useable rail service.

Agreed. It's just a matter of political will and joining up forces. Hopefully Halton Curve co-working will have shown the way.

It is silly that the region has to battle against not just daft rules set in place for elsewhere (namely the hundreds of miles of long distance 3rd rail in the south), but unfortunately also battle that against a backdrop of some who actively don't want to see anything good happen on your side of the M6. As I say, it's primarily a political fight and hopefully now things will start moving on.

 

[M28361M]

nearby pre-existing level crossings (of which there are not many - and none as far as Ellesmere Port to Helsby is concerned).

Isn't there a foot crossing at Ince & Elton station?

 

[Greybeard33]

Agreed. It's just a matter of political will and joining up forces. Hopefully Halton Curve co-working will have shown the way.

It is silly that the region has to battle against not just daft rules set in place for elsewhere (namely the hundreds of miles of long distance 3rd rail in the south), but unfortunately also battle that against a backdrop of some who actively don't want to see anything good happen on your side of the M6. As I say, it's primarily a political fight and hopefully now things will start moving on.

If the "your side of the M6" jibe is aimed at me, I am in fact supportive of Merseyrail extensions, despite living in Greater Manchester. Not only Ellesmere Port - Helsby, but also Kirkby - Skelmersdale/Wigan and maybe Bidston - Neston and Ormskirk - Burscough. But third rail extensions are not going to happen, which is why upthread I suggested 750V DC OLE as a lower cost solution than isolated "islands" of 25kV AC.

Politics is the "art of the possible", not of banging your head against a brick wall.

 

[notlob.divad]

Could the option to electrify this line be on board battery rather than implement any infrastructure?

Could Batteries be fitted to the 777's as it is such a short section?

This thread started because the Battery trials that were planned for the 777s have been cancelled. My understanding is that there is an issue with providing sufficient cooling to the batteries.

 

[cogload]

What's the point?

 

[krus_aragon]

What's the point?

Of cooling batteries? Of fitting them to 777s? Of electrifying this piece of railway?

Or are you asking about this thread itself?

 

[frodshamfella]

Isn't there a foot crossing at Ince & Elton station?

Yes there is

 

[frodshamfella]

Ince and Elton already have quite a lot of housing, it is quite ridiculous that they don't have any useable service, when the line and station is sat there already.

 

[HowardGWR]

I don't see any LCs on this stretch though. Presumably, that foot crossing would be easily replaced.

 

[MarkyT]

I like the idea of low voltage DC OHLE. That could be a 3rd rail replacement solution that could be progressively rolled out along much of the existing Merseyrail surface network too, and used for other extensions.
It would be nice to have some battery storage on board, not for long range off wire work but enough to power through short neutral sections, get to next station in event of a power cut and shunt around depots.

 

[Skie]

Can you have a dual DC & AC pan? Assume it's possible, would need connection change in the bus to divert the pan pickup from the DC bus to the AC kit.

 

[Elecman]

The structures and wiring would have to be fairly substantial for 750 volt DC as the current draw would be very high. I don’t think it would make much difference to a pan though as long as it could carry the current draw ( several thousand amps)

 

[Greybeard33]

Can you have a dual DC & AC pan? Assume it's possible, would need connection change in the bus to divert the pan pickup from the DC bus to the AC kit.

The Sheffield tram-trains have dual voltage capability (25kV AC + 750V DC) using the same pan.

 

[option]

Why Helsby & not Runcorn or Warrington?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Why Helsby & not Runcorn or Warrington?

Because you then no longer need any dedicated services from that side to Ellesmere Port, so the biggest gain is possible for the least effort.

 

[frodshamfella]

Why Helsby & not Runcorn or Warrington?

Already been improvements along the North Cheshire line with hourly service to Liverpool via Runcorn calling at Helsby, plus NR Leeds service with some calling at Helsby / Frodsham.

 

[option]

So Helsby would become an interchange station.

Maybe a new station at Pool Lane for the Technology Park?

 

[option]

The structures and wiring would have to be fairly substantial for 750 volt DC as the current draw would be very high. I don’t think it would make much difference to a pan though as long as it could carry the current draw ( several thousand amps)

Would it be so massively different to Metrolink that all the infrastructure would need to be massively different?
Or could you just use the same physical infrastructure as for 25kV & power it up at 750vDC?