Caledonian Sleeper

[marks87]

I don't really see why that needs to be so difficult.

GWR seem able to offer both sleeper tickets and walk-up singles for the night riviera. This is for tonight's train.

View attachment 64066

Using ScotRail it's flagged as a sleeper with compulsory reservations. LNER doesn't flag it as a sleeper at all.

As I said, this all seems to be down to the booking engines.

 

[trebor79]

Maybe most of the 92s have received the Mk5 mods by now, given the new trains were all meant to be in service by now?

 

[marks87]

Maybe most of the 92s have received the Mk5 mods by now, given the new trains were all meant to be in service by now?

Having the "Mk 5 modes" doesn't preclude use with the old stock, AFAIK.

 

[captainbigun]

Having the "Mk 5 modes" doesn't preclude use with the old stock, AFAIK.

It does as the ETS is changed to 1.5kV. All of the dellner fitted 92s are now Mk5 only. Hence three 90s still on hire for the highlander.

 

[BRX]

As I said, this all seems to be down to the booking engines.

Well, I don't know enough about how the system works, to know whose fault it is, that it doesn't work properly... who should a complaint be addressed to, ultimately?

 

[Butts]

I was looking into booking a Crewe or Preston to Inverness for later in the year using a two together rail card for my self and my son. The seats were quite reasonably priced at about £38 each with the appropriate discount.

The cheapest berth jumped to about £200 each as there appears to be no railcard discount - is this the same with all railcards ?

I'm afraid this hurdle directed me straight onto a plane - about £50 each from Brum to Inverness.

What is the cheapest you can get a berth from say London to Inverness ?

 

[BRX]

I think it's only disabled railcard that works now.

 

[WesternLancer]

I was looking into booking a Crewe or Preston to Inverness for later in the year using a two together rail card for my self and my son. The seats were quite reasonably priced at about £38 each with the appropriate discount.

The cheapest berth jumped to about £200 each as there appears to be no railcard discount - is this the same with all railcards ?

I'm afraid this hurdle directed me straight onto a plane - about £50 each from Brum to Inverness.

What is the cheapest you can get a berth from say London to Inverness ?

see the list here
https://www.sleeper.scot/tickets/railcard-discounts/

But basically i think they operate a system where their berth inclusive fares (which are probably their cheapest) do not permit '2 together' railcard discounts, but they do permit them if you sit up all night....(ie not use a berth)

So the option is then to search about for nights they sell cheaper all inclusive berth fares (I guess, book well ahead, avoid fridays and sundays - maybe look for tuesdays or weds when demand may be lower)

Not sure if the current operator does the 'Bargain Berths' cheap fares anymore that their predecessor did, but others will know if they do or not

OR Book a walk up ticket (off peak - the old Saver type ticket) and get the railcard discount on that, then pay the berth fee on top. This allows you to have a berth one way, come back on a day train the other way. But there is no railcard discount on the berth fee. You migth need to book the berth fee (which is flat price and not priced subject to demand AFAIK) in good time to be sure that all the berths do not get sold out, but just book the required rtn ticket a day or so before - so if things go wrong you do not have to get that refunded.

Use BR fares website to price that ticket from London or Brum etc as a bechmark.

Given the all inclusive price on the 1st option, and they can only sell the berth once per night so yuo don't save money getting on at Crewe AFAIK, if you can get to Euston cheaply to start your journey you may find that better than going to Crewe and getting on in the middle of the night, thus getting a better journey experience, more sleep etc by getting on the train earlier in the evening.

But I fear you will not beat a cheap flight price if you want a bed, however, it does save the cost of a B&B so you could maybe offset that against your ticket price?

ie Price you quote with berth = £200. versus
Flight price 2x£50 plus circa £50 for that night in B&B / hotel = £150, so is the sleeper 'experience' worth the extra £50 (or £25 each) to which I would say "yes" but that's a personal judgment. You will of course be able to do your own calcs along these lines knowing your full costs.

Might help to read the 'how much does it cost' section here:
https://www.seat61.com/CaledonianSleepers.htm

 

[WesternLancer]

What is the cheapest you can get a berth from say London to Inverness ?

I think you can look for the fares set by Caledonain Sleeper on here to see the cheapest they offer in theory (noting which are berths and which are seats)
http://www.brfares.com/#!fares?orig=EUS&dest=INV

 

[InOban]

You'll have to book your B&B well in advance to get that sort of price in Inverness. And you must include the cost of getting to the airport compared with the station.

 

[Butts]

see the list here
https://www.sleeper.scot/tickets/railcard-discounts/

But basically i think they operate a system where their berth inclusive fares (which are probably their cheapest) do not permit '2 together' railcard discounts, but they do permit them if you sit up all night....(ie not use a berth)

So the option is then to search about for nights they sell cheaper all inclusive berth fares (I guess, book well ahead, avoid fridays and sundays - maybe look for tuesdays or weds when demand may be lower)

Not sure if the current operator does the 'Bargain Berths' cheap fares anymore that their predecessor did, but others will know if they do or not

OR Book a walk up ticket (off peak - the old Saver type ticket) and get the railcard discount on that, then pay the berth fee on top. This allows you to have a berth one way, come back on a day train the other way. But there is no railcard discount on the berth fee. You migth need to book the berth fee (which is flat price and not priced subject to demand AFAIK) in good time to be sure that all the berths do not get sold out, but just book the required rtn ticket a day or so before - so if things go wrong you do not have to get that refunded.

see the list here
https://www.sleeper.scot/tickets/railcard-discounts/

But basically i think they operate a system where their berth inclusive fares (which are probably their cheapest) do not permit '2 together' railcard discounts, but they do permit them if you sit up all night....(ie not use a berth)

So the option is then to search about for nights they sell cheaper all inclusive berth fares (I guess, book well ahead, avoid fridays and sundays - maybe look for tuesdays or weds when demand may be lower)

Not sure if the current operator does the 'Bargain Berths' cheap fares anymore that their predecessor did, but others will know if they do or not

OR Book a walk up ticket (off peak - the old Saver type ticket) and get the railcard discount on that, then pay the berth fee on top. This allows you to have a berth one way, come back on a day train the other way. But there is no railcard discount on the berth fee. You migth need to book the berth fee (which is flat price and not priced subject to demand AFAIK) in good time to be sure that all the berths do not get sold out, but just book the required rtn ticket a day or so before - so if things go wrong you do not have to get that refunded.

Use BR fares website to price that ticket from London or Brum etc as a bechmark.

Given the all inclusive price on the 1st option, and they can only sell the berth once per night so yuo don't save money getting on at Crewe AFAIK, if you can get to Euston cheaply to start your journey you may find that better than going to Crewe and getting on in the middle of the night, thus getting a better journey experience, more sleep etc by getting on the train earlier in the evening.

But I fear you will not beat a cheap flight price if you want a bed, however, it does save the cost of a B&B so you could maybe offset that against your ticket price?

ie Price you quote with berth = £200. versus
Flight price 2x£50 plus circa £50 for that night in B&B / hotel = £150, so is the sleeper 'experience' worth the extra £50 (or £25 each) to which I would say "yes" but that's a personal judgment. You will of course be able to do your own calcs along these lines knowing your full costs.

Might help to read the 'how much does it cost' section here:
https://www.seat61.com/CaledonianSleepers.htm

see the list here
https://www.sleeper.scot/tickets/railcard-discounts/

But basically i think they operate a system where their berth inclusive fares (which are probably their cheapest) do not permit '2 together' railcard discounts, but they do permit them if you sit up all night....(ie not use a berth)

So the option is then to search about for nights they sell cheaper all inclusive berth fares (I guess, book well ahead, avoid fridays and sundays - maybe look for tuesdays or weds when demand may be lower)

Not sure if the current operator does the 'Bargain Berths' cheap fares anymore that their predecessor did, but others will know if they do or not

OR Book a walk up ticket (off peak - the old Saver type ticket) and get the railcard discount on that, then pay the berth fee on top. This allows you to have a berth one way, come back on a day train the other way. But there is no railcard discount on the berth fee. You migth need to book the berth fee (which is flat price and not priced subject to demand AFAIK) in good time to be sure that all the berths do not get sold out, but just book the required rtn ticket a day or so before - so if things go wrong you do not have to get that refunded.

Use BR fares website to price that ticket from London or Brum etc as a bechmark.

Given the all inclusive price on the 1st option, and they can only sell the berth once per night so yuo don't save money getting on at Crewe AFAIK, if you can get to Euston cheaply to start your journey you may find that better than going to Crewe and getting on in the middle of the night, thus getting a better journey experience, more sleep etc by getting on the train earlier in the evening.

But I fear you will not beat a cheap flight price if you want a bed, however, it does save the cost of a B&B so you could maybe offset that against your ticket price?

ie Price you quote with berth = £200. versus
Flight price 2x£50 plus circa £50 for that night in B&B / hotel = £150, so is the sleeper 'experience' worth the extra £50 (or £25 each) to which I would say "yes" but that's a personal judgment. You will of course be able to do your own calcs along these lines knowing your full costs.

Might help to read the 'how much does it cost' section here:
https://www.seat61.com/CaledonianSleepers.htm

Use BR fares website to price that ticket from London or Brum etc as a bechmark.

Given the all inclusive price on the 1st option, and they can only sell the berth once per night so yuo don't save money getting on at Crewe AFAIK, if you can get to Euston cheaply to start your journey you may find that better than going to Crewe and getting on in the middle of the night, thus getting a better journey experience, more sleep etc by getting on the train earlier in the evening.

But I fear you will not beat a cheap flight price if you want a bed, however, it does save the cost of a B&B so you could maybe offset that against your ticket price?

ie Price you quote with berth = £200. versus
Flight price 2x£50 plus circa £50 for that night in B&B / hotel = £150, so is the sleeper 'experience' worth the extra £50 (or £25 each) to which I would say "yes" but that's a personal judgment. You will of course be able to do your own calcs along these lines knowing your full costs.

Might help to read the 'how much does it cost' section here:
https://www.seat61.com/CaledonianSleepers.htm

see the list here
https://www.sleeper.scot/tickets/railcard-discounts/

But basically i think they operate a system where their berth inclusive fares (which are probably their cheapest) do not permit '2 together' railcard discounts, but they do permit them if you sit up all night....(ie not use a berth)

So the option is then to search about for nights they sell cheaper all inclusive berth fares (I guess, book well ahead, avoid fridays and sundays - maybe look for tuesdays or weds when demand may be lower)

Not sure if the current operator does the 'Bargain Berths' cheap fares anymore that their predecessor did, but others will know if they do or not

OR Book a walk up ticket (off peak - the old Saver type ticket) and get the railcard discount on that, then pay the berth fee on top. This allows you to have a berth one way, come back on a day train the other way. But there is no railcard discount on the berth fee. You migth need to book the berth fee (which is flat price and not priced subject to demand AFAIK) in good time to be sure that all the berths do not get sold out, but just book the required rtn ticket a day or so before - so if things go wrong you do not have to get that refunded.

Use BR fares website to price that ticket from London or Brum etc as a bechmark.

Given the all inclusive price on the 1st option, and they can only sell the berth once per night so yuo don't save money getting on at Crewe AFAIK, if you can get to Euston cheaply to start your journey you may find that better than going to Crewe and getting on in the middle of the night, thus getting a better journey experience, more sleep etc by getting on the train earlier in the evening.

But I fear you will not beat a cheap flight price if you want a bed, however, it does save the cost of a B&B so you could maybe offset that against your ticket price?

ie Price you quote with berth = £200. versus
Flight price 2x£50 plus circa £50 for that night in B&B / hotel = £150, so is the sleeper 'experience' worth the extra £50 (or £25 each) to which I would say "yes" but that's a personal judgment. You will of course be able to do your own calcs along these lines knowing your full costs.

Might help to read the 'how much does it cost' section here:
https://www.seat61.com/CaledonianSleepers.htm

That was £200 each .....ie £400 I think which is a whole new ball game.

 

[Butts]

You'll have to book your B&B well in advance to get that sort of price in Inverness. And you must include the cost of getting to the airport compared with the station.

Premier Inn for the dates looked at in Inverness from about £30 !! (for the room)

 

[WesternLancer]

That was £200 each .....ie £400 I think which is a whole new ball game.

OK - dbl check you have that correct tho - as I recently booked London to Aberdeen, one way, 2 people, berths all inclusive fare £250 total for basic 2 berth cabin (no shower toilet etc) and I thought that was the maximum price as it was a busy night and I did not book far ahead. I then came back on day train using cheap LNER advance fare where the 2 together r-card applied. So my rtn jny total cost was circa £175 per person, sleeper bed one way.

 

[alistairlees]

I was looking into booking a Crewe or Preston to Inverness for later in the year using a two together rail card for my self and my son. The seats were quite reasonably priced at about £38 each with the appropriate discount.

The cheapest berth jumped to about £200 each as there appears to be no railcard discount - is this the same with all railcards ?

I'm afraid this hurdle directed me straight onto a plane - about £50 each from Brum to Inverness.

What is the cheapest you can get a berth from say London to Inverness ?

What date were you trying to book? I can get a classic room for example for 21 August for £255.00

 

[Dr Hoo]

A friend had a seat booked from Euston to Edinburgh but then hurt their back at the gym and hoped to be able to trade up to a berth if there was a 'no show'. They were in luck but it cost £180 on the train. (Friend was unable to describe intricacies of what grade of staff, berth type and stuff.) They thought it was a bit steep although the actual journey experience was OK

 

[TimboM]

The one thing that's confusing me at the minute is why is it still necessary to hire in FL class 90's and DB class 67's when by now they should have enough 92's and 73's to cover the workings I understand the use of the ACLG locos for the ECS's but surely it must be more expensive to short term hire in locos against the long term agreement with GBrf

90s/92s have been explained as above.
67 still on hire as cover for the 73/9 that's allocated to Mk5 testing.
As well as the service trains, there's typically one 92 and one 73/9 at Polmadie with the Mk5s for testing etc.

 

[Essexman]

You'll have to book your B&B well in advance to get that sort of price in Inverness. And you must include the cost of getting to the airport compared with the station.

Inverness hotels & B&Bs are very expensive in the summer.
I paid £35 for a rubbish hotel in January but they wanted £157 when I looked at booking a few weeks ahead this month.
I used to stay in a small B&B that was cheap but the owner retired and the price doubled - £75 and usually fully booked.
A night on the sleeper has added value when & where hotel prices are high (London, Edinburgh & Inverness in particular).

 

[Bassman]

As an occasional user and enthusiast of the Inverness-London sleeper over the last six/seven years , I had hoped to travel on the new train this Monday evening. Two weeks, through the press, I discovered the new delay in the introduction of the Mk5 stock. I did not receive any emails about the change. I sent an email to CS but had the automatic reply and after several days with no contact I phoned CS. I was given apologies and I was assured that I would have compensation and emails. None seen so far.
I traveled on Monday and found that all staff were new, none of them I recognised from previous journeys. I felt they were willing but without the usual confidence of procedure in allotment of berths and service. In fact they seemed invisible throughout the journey, with no wake up call or morning tea. The catering crew were fine but had to field complaints about customers who did not know about cancellation of the the new stock and facilities. The train itself was in its worst state of condition. It has really been let down in repair. The train was on time and I slept well but the experience was one of low morale. It is a sad state of affairs.
The management of change is lacking and I feel for the staff who have to carry the burden.

 

[31160]

90s/92s have been explained as above.
67 still on hire as cover for the 73/9 that's allocated to Mk5 testing.
As well as the service trains, there's typically one 92 and one 73/9 at Polmadie with the Mk5s for testing etc.

How much more testing can there possibly be left to do, they are already in service?

 

[vlad]

A huge (and very memorable) part of the experience used to be meeting and sharing stories with other travellers in the lounge- why they want to discourage that I don't know as it was something that made the journey such fun (for me anyway).

There wasn't really any atmosphere in the lounge on this journey - although if you're a fan of quiet trains then it would have suited you!

Previous journeys have been far more convivial.

 

[philthetube]

Typical railway job ringfencing. There is no reason they could not have these additional duties (I'm talking broadcast type stuff, not answering queries). For instance, quite a number of the Eurostar guards have their own Twitter, encouraged by the company, and Tweet their journey when they get a spare minute.

Just because it isn't someone's job to do something now doesn't mean it should never be their job. And on something like CS, the guard is not going to be doing something at all times.

when they are most needed to staff the twitter feeds would be exactly the same times as they were busiest doing other things.

 

[MrEd]

As I recall there are two ways to run the Inverness lounge, mobbed as it is on departure.

One way is to leave the Team Leader and, apparently nowadays, a second person in the kitchen, toiling away from 830pm until at least 1030pm. They don't have time to allocate seats or suggest pairings of individual passengers, or think about when to ask people to come back when a table might be available. They may well fall back on 'rules' as a backstop. The queues and frustration build up and people are standing both in the aisle and down into the first sleeper carriage. Significantly, hosts are nowhere to be seen.

Or the full crew work as a proper team and flood the lounge with staff as soon as they can get down the train. I'm thinking of an Inverness crew under the legendary David, who I think emigrated to South Africa a couple of years before Serco took over.

The Team Leader's first job is to seat and take orders from passengers as quickly and efficiently as possible while the second person (under the new system) runs the kitchen. Seating will certainly involve putting strangers together if needs be.

As soon as they know that their sleepers are occupied and settled the majority of hosts join the lounge effort and tables can be served, cleared, bills produced and customers sent happily on their way with amazing speed - you can have five of them on the case after all. Cheapskates lingering with no more than a cup of tea get the message pretty quickly with this level of activity around them. The Team Leader continues to consider those waiting, whether in the lounge or in cabins, and finds them tables just like the maitre d of a decent restaurant might.

Maybe they do need more systems and rules, but my recollection, and occasional current experience, is that the space they have used proactively and efficiently by a good team, who can be bothered, can be made to work extremely well to the extent that it looks like an advert for VisitScotland.

If anything this should be easier in the mk5s because the stupid purple sofas have been replaced with seats or stools at proper tables.

I think that you may be right here. I'm wondering whether some of these 'rules' are used as a fall-back, as you say, when staff in the lounge simply cannot cope. I remember that it was a Friday night in January when I was going to Fort William (Burns' Night this year actually), and I got down to the lounge (far too late) at around 21.20; it was busy but there were two spaces available at tables for two, which only one person was sitting at. I asked the team leader whether it might be OK to share one of these, and he was quite adamant that it wasn't allowed. The team leader that night was doing his best but did seem quite stressed, perhaps because he was new to the job; I didn't myself recognise him. Perhaps he simply wasn't in a position to take any more orders, as he seemed (for whatever reason) to be working the lounge alone (even though there were two hosts in the Aberdeen section and one in the Fort William, but maybe they had other duties to attend to). I understand that it must be a very stressful job at times. Thankfully I got a table around an hour later, after the very lovely and helpful lady looking after the Fort William coaches got him to reserve one for me as soon as one came free. She found the 'ban' on sharing tables as bizarre as I did, which leads me to think that it's at the lounge staff's discretion and (as you say) depends very much on the crew you get. The Inverness and Fort William crews (on the Edinburgh-Fort William section) seem to run the lounge much more efficiently from my experience.

 

[Highlandspring]

I think for a very long time the sleeper operated as a sort of fiefdom with arcane customs and practices passed down through generations of railwaymen and the Serco takeover has brought some of these into the light and tried to tackle them for the first time. I’m reminded of the 1978 Taunton fire where the inquiry found that the sleeping car attendant involved had never met his nominal Supervisor and practices such as the (prohibited) locking of external coach doors and stacking of used bed linen in the leading vestibule were carried out simply because they’d always been done that way. Obviously nothing like that goes on nowadays but the peculiar ways that some crews operate brings it to mind. I briefly worked with someone who’d been a manager of the sleeper attendants in NatEx days and they described the operation to me as “a very shadowy world”, something which has stuck with me ever since...

 

[WesternLancer]

I think that you may be right here. I'm wondering whether some of these 'rules' are used as a fall-back, as you say, when staff in the lounge simply cannot cope. I remember that it was a Friday night in January when I was going to Fort William (Burns' Night this year actually), and I got down to the lounge (far too late) at around 21.20; it was busy but there were two spaces available at tables for two, which only one person was sitting at. I asked the team leader whether it might be OK to share one of these, and he was quite adamant that it wasn't allowed. The team leader that night was doing his best but did seem quite stressed, perhaps because he was new to the job; I didn't myself recognise him. Perhaps he simply wasn't in a position to take any more orders, as he seemed (for whatever reason) to be working the lounge alone (even though there were two hosts in the Aberdeen section and one in the Fort William, but maybe they had other duties to attend to). I understand that it must be a very stressful job at times. Thankfully I got a table around an hour later, after the very lovely and helpful lady looking after the Fort William coaches got him to reserve one for me as soon as one came free. She found the 'ban' on sharing tables as bizarre as I did, which leads me to think that it's at the lounge staff's discretion and (as you say) depends very much on the crew you get. The Inverness and Fort William crews (on the Edinburgh-Fort William section) seem to run the lounge much more efficiently from my experience.

The ban - if 'official' can only be bizarre. Surely if there is one thing everyone can agree on the role of the TOC (for better or worse) must be to minimise costs and maximise revenue (OK I'd better not provoke an off topic issue...) - the way to do that is surely to fill all the seats in the bar and get people to buy the products with the highest profit margin / price. Having people waiting for half empty tables to become free can not possibly do that!

I see the Mk5 lounges have tables for 4, does that mean if 2 people from a berth come in and take a table, the other 2 seats at those tables remain empty?

 

[JModulo]

I have noticed before that some staff do not allow sharing of the tables due to the way the billing system works through their tablets. The bill is therefore placed against a table (with your berth number) and I'm unsure if the system allows them to add multiple bills to the one table?

 

[MrEd]

I think for a very long time the sleeper operated as a sort of fiefdom with arcane customs and practices passed down through generations of railwaymen and the Serco takeover has brought some of these into the light and tried to tackle them for the first time. I’m reminded of the 1978 Taunton fire where the inquiry found that the sleeping car attendant involved had never met his nominal Supervisor and practices such as the (prohibited) locking of external coach doors and stacking of used bed linen in the leading vestibule were carried out simply because they’d always been done that way. Obviously nothing like that goes on nowadays but the peculiar ways that some crews operate brings it to mind. I briefly worked with someone who’d been a manager of the sleeper attendants in NatEx days and they described the operation to me as “a very shadowy world”, something which has stuck with me ever since...

That's a very interesting point that you make, and yes, I am familiar with that report from Taunton (depressing reading though it is in many ways). I think that it is fair to say that every host and every team has a different way of working; staff from different crew bases also seem to work very differently. I always notice how the Inverness and Fort William crews (north of Edinburgh) seem to work as a proper team, whereas often, the London and Aberdeen based crews don't (which often leads to frustration, I find, when working the lounge). It seems strange, though that Serco tolerated these idiosyncrasies for more than three years, and then suddenly decided to tackle them only last October.

 

[MrEd]

I have noticed before that some staff do not allow sharing of the tables due to the way the billing system works through their tablets. The bill is therefore placed against a table (with your berth number) and I'm unsure if the system allows them to add multiple bills to the one table?

That may be a very good practical reason, which I hadn't thought of, but if so, that ought to be modified, as it doesn't make commercial sense to have the lounge half empty but with passengers unable to access seats. Surely they might be able to come up with a way to split bills?

 

[6Z09]

No doubt the on board staff can be under stress , but has some of this been brought about by undeliverable marketing blurb !

 

[WesternLancer]

No doubt the on board staff can be under stress , but has some of this been brought about by undeliverable marketing blurb !

I bet it has been!

 

[WesternLancer]

I have noticed before that some staff do not allow sharing of the tables due to the way the billing system works through their tablets. The bill is therefore placed against a table (with your berth number) and I'm unsure if the system allows them to add multiple bills to the one table?

It can't be insurmountable tho - as the other night when on aberdeen run we shared a table with 2 others and the steward just checked if we are all together (which we weren't) and then entered the tab in for our respective 2 orders separately on his tablet.