TrawsCambria / TrawsCymru

[Dai Corner]

The raw data from the MNOs would be journeys between mobile phone masts. I'd imagine that they correlated that by local authority in London as that was a sensible level for the study they were undertaking. They might do the same in the Valleys and Cities, given the dense population and small LA areas, but in rural Wales town to town journeys would be more appropriate.

I would have thought you'd want to include journeys to school or college when planning bus routes. Students are probably the biggest group of daily users of rural buses.

 

[transmanche]

A Traws route that goes from Wrexham via Betws Y Coed, Llanberis and on to Bangor would be an idea. Would make the Snowdon path a bit more accessible to those without a car.

I thought a tender for a T10 service following a similar route was issued last year, but nothing emerged from it.

 

[johntrawscymru]

A Traws route that goes from Wrexham via Betws Y Coed, Llanberis and on to Bangor would be an idea. Would make the Snowdon path a bit more accessible to those without a car.

Perhaps you may be lucky when the WG introduce MPD to decide on routes. There must be shed loads of mobiles going from Wrexham up Snowdon. However as Transmanche pointed out the WG preferred route would be to visit Oswestry, Chirk and the villages of South Clwyd on the way to Snowdon and Bangor. You would therefore not get much time to get up Snowdon - you would probably have to use the pig track. Would tick all the WG boxes and promote Active Travel. Best of luck.

 

[johntrawscymru]

The raw data from the MNOs would be journeys between mobile phone masts. I'd imagine that they correlated that by local authority in London as that was a sensible level for the study they were undertaking. They might do the same in the Valleys and Cities, given the dense population and small LA areas, but in rural Wales town to town journeys would be more appropriate.

I would have thought you'd want to include journeys to school or college when planning bus routes. Students are probably the biggest group of daily users of rural buses.

Cannot do town to town only LA to LA. The ONS evaluation does not mention not including journeys to school or college when planning bus routes, but does highlight the problem that schoolchildren taken to school by parents or in school buses/community vehicles cannot be distinguished from commuters.

Would suggest reading the ONS evaluation. There are 3 levels to the evaluation. The raw data was produced by the MNO (in this case Vodaphone), and supplied to a Data Supplier who produced the analysis in order to sell it on to interested parties like the gullible WG. The Data Supplier’s analysis examines commuter flows from local authority (LA) to LA across England and Wales. The ONS then took the Data Supplier’s analysis and evaluated its use.

The analysis is obviously complex as evidenced by the following extract from the ONS report. “”Groups of cells form larger geographies called “location areas”. In this research, Middle Layer Super Output Areas (MSOAs) were chosen. The method to do this is proprietary to the data supplier and complex, as it requires consideration on how to allocate cell areas when they cover more than one MSOA. This causes problems with correctly identifying the home MSOA location of a subscriber identified as living in a certain cell area. In rural areas, cell-tower density is very sparse and a cell may have a range of five kilometres or more. Location areas can also vary in size. Some can be very large. “”

Ideal bedtime reading. Will be fast asleep in minutes.

 

[Dai Corner]

I'm as interested in telecoms as I am in transport so am quite looking forward to reading it!

Your last paragraph contradicts the first. The cells (or masts as I called them) know nothing of LA boundaries and the analysis is of journeys between cells or groups of cells. It can be as geographically precise as you wish, from individual cells to groups of hundreds or more as found in a London Borough.

In rural areas the cells are naturally less dense, but then so are the population and bus services.

In the days when landlines were predominant, analysis of calls was used to visualise social and economic links. It was interesting to note how many calls were between south east Wales and the west of England and north Wales and north west England compared with those within Wales.


Apologies for the off-topic ramble.

Thinking more about student travel, schools and colleges know where all their students live and already use that data when planning their dedicated bus services. Combining the MNO data with that should enable the students to be separated from the commuters.

 

[johntrawscymru]

I'm as interested in telecoms as I am in transport so am quite looking forward to reading it!

Your last paragraph contradicts the first. The cells (or masts as I called them) know nothing of LA boundaries and the analysis is of journeys between cells or groups of cells. It can be as geographically precise as you wish, from individual cells to groups of hundreds or more as found in a London Borough.

In rural areas the cells are naturally less dense, but then so are the population and bus services.

In the days when landlines were predominant, analysis of calls was used to visualise social and economic links. It was interesting to note how many calls were between south east Wales and the west of England and north Wales and north west England compared with those within Wales.


Apologies for the off-topic ramble.

Thinking more about student travel, schools and colleges know where all their students live and already use that data when planning their dedicated bus services. Combining the MNO data with that should enable the students to be separated from the commuters.

I would suggest reading the ONS evaluation.

“”Your last paragraph contradicts the first.””.The first and last paragraphs are not my paragraphs and are taken from the ONS evaluation.
“”Schools and colleges know where all their students live and already use that data when planning their dedicated bus services. Combining the MNO data with that should enable the students to be separated from the commuters.””.
The MNO data has not been used in the ONS evaluation.
The ONS have evaluated the analysis of the MNO data by a company called CitiLogik.
The CitiLogik analysis is for 1 MNO (Vodaphone), does not cover the other 3 MNOs and has been carried out at Local Authority Level for Wales.
I am inclined to believe the ONS may be correct in their conclusion that children of secondary school age and in higher education might therefore also be included in the MPD flows.
The technique is obviously in its infancy and the ONS evaluation points to certain major problems in using it.
In terms of use in Wales, phone users in Wales have the least access to 4G networks in the UK and can get a 4G signal just 35.4% of the time. (Vodaphone come out third at 30.4% behind EE and O2). Therefore the CitiLogik analysis would be useless to predict potential bus routes in Wales because it could only be used at Local Authority Level and would only capture at the very most 25% of travellers with their mobile switched on.

However let us not go too far into the technicalities of whether the technique works. The question is whether the WG will grab this technique with open arms and continue to introduce new routes with no public consultation and no published evaluation. No doubt the phrase the WG would use in the Welsh Assembly to justify the new routes would be ”We have looked at the MPD flows”.

Another member of this forum said in relation to the proposed T10 ””This Bangor to Oswestry route is almost like the product of one of those awkward schoolboys who sits in their bedroom concocting bus routes in places they don't know, look at where there's a "gap" in provision and suggest putting a service in!”” . Perhaps that will change in the future to “”like the product of one of those awkward schoolboys who sits in their bedroom concocting bus routes in places they don't know, look at the MPD flows and suggest putting a service in!””

Has anyone out there had sight of an evaluation document for the T10, T11, T12 routes? They are probably under the bed in the schoolboys bedroom.

 

[rich.davies]

Trawscymru are trialling a coach service on the T1C route.

https://twitter.com/TrawsCymru_/status/1138838766653779968?s=19

 

[carlberry]

Trawscymru are trialling a coach service on the T1C route.

https://twitter.com/TrawsCymru_/status/1138838766653779968?s=19

A lot of feedback about it featuring the Union Jack which dosent include a Welsh connection! Also they call it a coach and a bus in the same paragraph!

This week is 40 years since the first Traws Cambria service started, a celebration run will take place on 22nd June details on this web page:
https://www.redandwhitebus.uk/TC

 

[anamyd]

Trawscymru are trialling a coach service on the T1C route.

https://twitter.com/TrawsCymru_/status/1138838766653779968?s=19

wasn't it already a coach service since operated by the Tourismo from April 2018...?

what they're trialling is a Panther LE, a low-entry coach with a low floor front section and a high floor rear section. As pointed out, it has no toilet unlike the Tourismo (so the driver had to stop at a service station) and space for "two suitcases" underneath due to the layout (although there is a bus-style luggage rack at the front, but mostly people were literally having to carry their heavy luggage into the cabin). Also no DVD player (yes, a film was on one time I was on the Tourismo!)

The plus points are nicer seats which recline, USB power sockets and a radio with proper audio signal processing so you actually hear music and speech, not just tsss tsss tsss. The white LED destination / route displays also look more modern than the orange ones.

So, if it was possible to have a Panther LE combining the best features of "VXH" and "MMF", that would be so nice

 

[anamyd]

A lot of feedback about it featuring the Union Jack which dosent include a Welsh connection!

Really...? It's a demonstrator owned by Plaxton, that's why it has the model name and logo on it. The Union Jack is probably related to the "Built in Britain" thing it says on it. Are people really stupid enough to think that it somehow is a livery designed for service in Wales, on what is "obviously" a UK-wide demonstrator...?

 

[Dai Corner]

Really...? It's a demonstrator owned by Plaxton, that's why it has the model name and logo on it. The Union Jack is probably related to the "Built in Britain" thing it says on it. Are people really stupid enough to think that it somehow is a livery designed for service in Wales, on what is "obviously" a UK-wide demonstrator...?

Welsh Nationalists home in on things like this like bees round a honeypot.

 

[DaveHarries]

I have never seen one of these Panther LE coaches in the flesh but I looked them up on Flickr and see that Stagecoach Scotland have a number of them. Nice idea to have a coach with low-floor access and wheelchair space as well: I wonder if these will become more widespread on long-distance services in the future. Stagecoach Scotland photos:
Outside: https://www.flickr.com/photos/busmanscotland/44267754281/
Inside: https://www.flickr.com/photos/gjm-photogenic/45134366195/ and https://www.flickr.com/photos/gjm-photogenic/45134389555/

Dave

 

[anamyd]

Welsh Nationalists home in on things like this like bees round a honeypot.

I'm not Welsh but was born only just outside Wales, have some Welsh family and friends, and have lived in Wales for longer than I lived inside England, and I really think it's a bit much. I think sometimes some Welsh people (and people who aren't Welsh but think they are) forget that Wales is part of both Britain and the UK, even though it's its own country as well.

 

[Simon75]

Years ago the D94 extended from Wrexham to Nantwich. How viable would be a T3 extension to Nantwich or Stoke-On-Trent

 

[Dai Corner]

An event is being held on 22 June to mark 40 years of Trawscambria / Trawscymru services.


https://redandwhitebus.uk/TC

40th Anniversary Road Run
Saturday 22 June 2019

The TRAWSCAMBRIA cross-Wales coach service started 40 years ago on Friday 1st June 1979. Route 700 operated between Bangor and Cardiff via mid-Wales. It was an experiemental service that ran Fridays, Saturdays, Sundays and Mondays until 10 Sept 1979. The service was jointly operated by National Bus Company subsidiaries Crosville (from North Wales) and National Welsh (from South Wales).

In 1980 a second service, route 702 was introduced linking Liverpool and Cardiff. This followed the same route as the previous X71, which was a joint operation by Crosville and Western Welsh that had linked these two cities since July 1964 and through most of the 1970's.

On Saturday 22 June 2019, we will re-create most of the TRAWSCAMBRIA 702 service, with a road run by 18 vintage coaches.

We will start from Chester and run through Wales to Merthyr Tydfil, via Wrexham, Chirk, Oswestry, Welshpool, Newtown, Llandrindod Wells, Builth Wells and Brecon (with a stop at the Brecon Mountain Railway in the early evening).

 

[Statto]

Years ago the D94 extended from Wrexham to Nantwich. How viable would be a T3 extension to Nantwich or Stoke-On-Trent

Not a chance in hell, WAG are loathed to extend TC routes outside of Wales[if anything T3 really should go to Chester], the T12 Oswestry, was an existing route which WAG converted to TC & extended to Wrexham

 

[krus_aragon]

Not a chance in hell, WAG are loathed to extend TC routes outside of Wales[if anything T3 really should go to Chester], the T12 Oswestry, was an existing route which WAG converted to TC & extended to Wrexham

I got the impression that some English councils had recently gotten mad at the idea of extending some TC services across the border. I think it was largely around the fact that the TC services would be competing with theirs.

 

[Statto]

I got the impression that some English councils had recently gotten mad at the idea of extending some TC services across the border. I think it was largely around the fact that the TC services would be competing with theirs.

Not only councils, other bus companies would be annoyed too, didn't Arriva or someone get annoyed at the T12 extension to Wrexham, as that covered the 2 Oswestry-Wrexham operated by Arriva?

 

[quarella]

https://www.traveline.cymru/disruptions/1387/

Please be aware that the T9 service will now drop off and pick up customers between Highlight Park and the airport, in both directions.

This change does not affect stops between Highlight Park and Cardiff City Centre.

We hope to have this information on our website as soon as possible. We apologise for any inconvenience caused by this issue.

This is on Port Road East in the vicinity of Tesco. Seems odd to list it under "Disruptions."

 

[krus_aragon]

https://www.traveline.cymru/disruptions/1387/

This is on Port Road East in the vicinity of Tesco. Seems odd to list it under "Disruptions."

Maybe they're casting aspersions on the people of the Colcot area.

 

[padbus]

wasn't it already a coach service since operated by the Tourismo from April 2018...?

what they're trialling is a Panther LE, a low-entry coach with a low floor front section and a high floor rear section. As pointed out, it has no toilet unlike the Tourismo (so the driver had to stop at a service station) and space for "two suitcases" underneath due to the layout (although there is a bus-style luggage rack at the front, but mostly people were literally having to carry their heavy luggage into the cabin). Also no DVD player (yes, a film was on one time I was on the Tourismo!)

The plus points are nicer seats which recline, USB power sockets and a radio with proper audio signal processing so you actually hear music and speech, not just tsss tsss tsss. The white LED destination / route displays also look more modern than the orange ones.

So, if it was possible to have a Panther LE combining the best features of "VXH" and "MMF", that would be so nice

Thank you for the heads up on this. I had a planned visit to Cardiff over the weekend and managed to track the coach down in the unlovely surroundings of the road behind Cardiff Central Station and take some photos. It turned out to be very difficult to photograph as the shiny black paintwork and tinted, bonded glazing very effectively disguised the unique feature of this coach:- the very deep windows at the front of each side. I also managed to get a short ride on it between Sarn and Culverhouse cross on Sunday, free of charge courtesy of the Welsh government.

I thought it seemed a good vehicle and may be the answer to Traws Cymru's conflicting requirements regarding vehicle specification. It's length was not a problem on the motorway but I cannot comment on the more rural roads of Wales. Another passenger alighting at Culverhouse Cross recovered a case from the underfloor luggage locker and I noticed that the locker was nowhere near full although most pairs of seats in the coach had at least one occupant. The internal luggage racks were empty. If luggage capacity is a problem, perhaps it may be possible to reduce the low floor seating and have more high level seats to make space for a larger locker. No doubt a toilet could be fitted if required.

 

[Flying Snail]

Thank you for the heads up on this. I had a planned visit to Cardiff over the weekend and managed to track the coach down in the unlovely surroundings of the road behind Cardiff Central Station and take some photos. It turned out to be very difficult to photograph as the shiny black paintwork and tinted, bonded glazing very effectively disguised the unique feature of this coach:- the very deep windows at the front of each side. I also managed to get a short ride on it between Sarn and Culverhouse cross on Sunday, free of charge courtesy of the Welsh government.

I thought it seemed a good vehicle and may be the answer to Traws Cymru's conflicting requirements regarding vehicle specification. It's length was not a problem on the motorway but I cannot comment on the more rural roads of Wales. Another passenger alighting at Culverhouse Cross recovered a case from the underfloor luggage locker and I noticed that the locker was nowhere near full although most pairs of seats in the coach had at least one occupant. The internal luggage racks were empty. If luggage capacity is a problem, perhaps it may be possible to reduce the low floor seating and have more high level seats to make space for a larger locker. No doubt a toilet could be fitted if required.

It would be a decent improvement over the buses used on the majority of the longer TC routes however if they are just looking at replacing the standard coach on the T1C then it is a step backwards IMO.

Even though it is longer there is a capacity decrease from the Tourismo normally used on that run which can be packed to capacity on free fare days at least.

 

[anamyd]

Thank you for the heads up on this. I had a planned visit to Cardiff over the weekend and managed to track the coach down in the unlovely surroundings of the road behind Cardiff Central Station and take some photos. It turned out to be very difficult to photograph as the shiny black paintwork and tinted, bonded glazing very effectively disguised the unique feature of this coach:- the very deep windows at the front of each side. I also managed to get a short ride on it between Sarn and Culverhouse cross on Sunday, free of charge courtesy of the Welsh government.

I thought it seemed a good vehicle and may be the answer to Traws Cymru's conflicting requirements regarding vehicle specification. It's length was not a problem on the motorway but I cannot comment on the more rural roads of Wales. Another passenger alighting at Culverhouse Cross recovered a case from the underfloor luggage locker and I noticed that the locker was nowhere near full although most pairs of seats in the coach had at least one occupant. The internal luggage racks were empty. If luggage capacity is a problem, perhaps it may be possible to reduce the low floor seating and have more high level seats to make space for a larger locker. No doubt a toilet could be fitted if required.

No worries Some good points there!

 

[anamyd]

It would be a decent improvement over the buses used on the majority of the longer TC routes however if they are just looking at replacing the standard coach on the T1C then it is a step backwards IMO.

Even though it is longer there is a capacity decrease from the Tourismo normally used on that run which can be packed to capacity on free fare days at least.

It will be interesting to see what buses / coaches are used on TrawsCymru (or the supposed "TfW Bus") in the future

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Pictures tweeted of the new Stagecoach B8RLEs https://twitter.com/nigel_winter3/status/1141059509072388099?s=12

Launch date 3rd July

 

[quarella]

The Panther at Aberystwyth last week ready to run to Cardiff and (Lloyd's) T2 Bangor - Aberystwyth meets (Richard Bros)T5 Fishguard - Aberystwyth. My trip to Bangor was not as smooth as I had hoped as the bus would not start. Full marks to Lloyd's putting passengers on the next X28 to Machynlleth 30 minutes later with a replacement vehicle from there. With a few traffic issues we reached Bangor 40 minutes late but can recommend the route. I noticed at Penygroes there is still one GHA liveried coach and an Express Motors bus in their compound.

 

[anamyd]

Pictures tweeted of the new Stagecoach B8RLEs https://twitter.com/nigel_winter3/status/1141059509072388099?s=12

Launch date 3rd July

What service are they for...? Can't make out all of the text above the windows

 

[anamyd]

View attachment 64694The Panther at Aberystwyth last week ready to run to Cardiff

I see YJ67FYY sorry "OIL9685" in the background

 

[carlberry]

What service are they for...? Can't make out all of the text above the windows

The T4

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

What service are they for...? Can't make out all of the text above the windows

They are for the T4 and T14