• Our new ticketing site is now live! Using either this or the original site (both powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

TrawsCambria / TrawsCymru

Status
Not open for further replies.

anamyd

Established Member
Joined
17 Aug 2018
Messages
3,038
Vehicle was T4 branded Optare which was old enough not to have USB sockets to standard Traws Cymru design. On board screen locked on Brecon Beacons logo.
Sounds like Stagecoach kept the older ex-T4 (originally 704) Tempos as they were after withdrawing them from the T4 mid-2017 time in favour of internally transferred Scania-ADL Enviro300s to continue alongside the newer Tempos on the T4, and are using the older Tempos as the "T14 vehicles".

Richards Bros (T5 operator) also have a few of those ex-TrawsCambria Tempos ("TrawsCymru refurbished") alongside their TrawsCymru procured MetroCities (which don't have passenger USB ports, I've only seen those on some Lloyds Coaches T2/T3 MetroCities) and their four VDL SB200s; the Tempos form part of the T5 South fleet but occasionally cover on the T5 North. The PIS computers on those are also abandoned; at least one boot loops (crashes at the Windows XP loading screen and resets to POST over and over) and at least one actually displays an "Arriva, (before they pulled out of mid to south Wales), First, Richards Bros (possibly...?), county councils logos" screen.
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

iantherev

Member
Joined
3 Apr 2011
Messages
803
Location
Brecon Beacons
Sounds like Stagecoach kept the older ex-T4 (originally 704) Tempos as they were after withdrawing them from the T4 mid-2017 time in favour of internally transferred Scania-ADL Enviro300s to continue alongside the newer Tempos on the T4, and are using the older Tempos as the "T14 vehicles".

Richards Bros (T5 operator) also have a few of those ex-TrawsCambria Tempos ("TrawsCymru refurbished") alongside their TrawsCymru procured MetroCities (which don't have passenger USB ports, I've only seen those on some Lloyds Coaches T2/T3 MetroCities) and their four VDL SB200s; the Tempos form part of the T5 South fleet but occasionally cover on the T5 North. The PIS computers on those are also abandoned; at least one boot loops (crashes at the Windows XP loading screen and resets to POST over and over) and at least one actually displays an "Arriva, (before they pulled out of mid to south Wales), First, Richards Bros (possibly...?), county councils logos" screen.

No - the original 704 Tempos are withdrawn at Cwmbran. The ones in use are 25107/8 (61 plate) and 25116-8 (62 plate). 25109 is also withdrawn.
 

anamyd

Established Member
Joined
17 Aug 2018
Messages
3,038
No - the original 704 Tempos are withdrawn at Cwmbran. The ones in use are 25107/8 (61 plate) and 25116-8 (62 plate). 25109 is also withdrawn.
Oh right! So what are they using for the extra vehicles required to operate the T14 alongside the T4...? Or are the 4 Tempos and 3 Scania-ADLs enough...? And why was 25109 withdrawn...?
 

iantherev

Member
Joined
3 Apr 2011
Messages
803
Location
Brecon Beacons
25109 had mechanical issues.
Merthyr gained an extra Scania (28723) to cover. The extra vehicles come from the Cummins repowered MAN/Enviro 300s but long Solos and StreetLites are not unknown - I’ve even had a trip on a Plaxton Pointer 2 Dart!
 

anamyd

Established Member
Joined
17 Aug 2018
Messages
3,038
25109 had mechanical issues.
Merthyr gained an extra Scania (28723) to cover. The extra vehicles come from the Cummins repowered MAN/Enviro 300s but long Solos and StreetLites are not unknown - I’ve even had a trip on a Plaxton Pointer 2 Dart!
Have any more Stagecoach vehicles been reliveried into TrawsCymru...?
 

johntrawscymru

On Moderation
Joined
22 Jun 2018
Messages
118
https://beta.gov.wales/sites/defaul...-01/trawscymru-annual-report-2017-to-2018.pdf

The above Annual Report for Trawscymru 2017-18 was published on 09/01/2019 and is said to “”summarise key aspects of the performance of the TrawsCymru longer distance bus network””.
However the report is a justification exercise for Free Weekend Travel. coupled with a blatant publicity exercise for the 58 mile T3 Wrexham to Barmouth service, which runs through the Transport Minister’s constituency of South Clwyd. The T3 route has ruined the 149 mile T2/T1 Bangor to Carmarthen route by 15 minute delays applied to the T2 services in Dolgellau to wait for the T3.
The Annual Report does not provide a full breakdown of performance of each individual Trawscymru service.. The only analysis of each individual Trawscymru service.is for the Free Weekend Travel. element.
The Annual Report quotes the following “”In 2017-18 the TrawsCymru network carried 1.751 million passengers in total, which represented a growth of 133,438 passengers or +8.25% compared to the previous year 2016 -17 In 2017-18 the Welsh Government contributed £1m to trial weekend free travel across the network. The initial trial has been very successful in generating additional passengers onto the network on weekends. Between July 2017 and March 2018, an additional 133,391 passengers travelled on TrawsCymru services which represented an increase of 65.49% on weekends, compared to the equivalent period in 2016-17. “”
The objective of Free Weekend Travel. was “”to stimulate the demand for bus services on key routes across Wales and assess the effect on wider demand for public transport””. In terms of weekday travel, passenger numbers increased by 133,438 - 133,391 = 47 passengers. The Welsh Government have spent £1m and managed to stimulate mid-week demand by 47 passengers. The extra mid-week passengers have not been generated for one very simple reason – lack of connectivity between services and slow, tortuous routes with long journey times. Trawscymru is no longer a network of long distance, strategic routes. Would the Welsh Government have been better spending £1m on improving journey times/connectivity and developing new services in order to stimulate demand ?. I am sure there are services that could be successfully developed on key routes across Wales .Any suggestions should be sent to the Transport Minister who is running short of ideas, other than all Trawscymru services must cross South Clwyd (Anyone know why the T10 to Chirk/Oswestry was not introduced ??).
 

Dai Corner

Established Member
Joined
20 Jul 2015
Messages
6,775
I think it's unfair to criticise TrawsCymru for 'ruining' a service to improve connections at Dolgellau then criticise them again for a 'lack of connectivity'.
 

johntrawscymru

On Moderation
Joined
22 Jun 2018
Messages
118
I think it's unfair to criticise TrawsCymru for 'ruining' a service to improve connections at Dolgellau then criticise them again for a 'lack of connectivity'.

My criticism is not really unfair.

The T2 Bangor to Aberystwyth service (86 miles) and the T1 Aberystwyth to Carmarthen service (63 miles) were the first TrawsCymru services to be introduced providing a l49 mile highly strategic route, which was the only means of public transport between North and South Wales and connected in Carmarthen with the Great Western Railway from Carmarthen to Cardiff/London. The T3 Wrexham to Barmouth service (58 miles) was the next service to be introduced and was the preferred option of Welsh Government officials. Barmouth was not a key town and the route was not strategically important The Bevan Foundation Review was commissioned by the Welsh Government to obtain an independent view on how the TrawsCymru network should be developed before the T3.service was introduced. The Bevan Foundation Review recommended the T3 service should run from Wrexham to Aberystwyth (82 miles). connecting with the key towns of Welshpool and Newtown This would allow links to the Cambrian line rail network at Welshpool and Newtown, links to the TrawsCymru T4 Newtown to Cardiff service, and links in Aberystwyth to the T1 Aberystwyth to Carmarthen service – the T5 Aberystwyth to Cardigan,Fishguard service - and the T2 Aberystwyth to Bangor service. The Bevan Foundation Review recommendation to examine the feasibility of a T3 Wrexham to Aberystwyth service was ignored by Welsh Government officials.

Now 15 minute delays to T2 departures.in Dolgellau are necessary because the T3 from Wrexham cannot meet the Traffic Commissioner’s guidelines that 95% of services should arrive no later than 5 minutes after their published arrival time

On the 21st December 2017 an emergency short notice bus service registration was placed with the Traffic Commissioner for Wales to increase the number of T3 services between Wrexham and Barmouth The normal notice period for registrations is 56 days and the 21/12/2017 registration was effective from 02/01/2018. The increase in the number of T3 services between Wrexham and Barmouth was puzzling since (a) the number of passengers on the T3 service had dropped in 2017 from 187,947 in the year 2015/2016 to 166,637 in the year 2016/2017. (11.3% reduction.).and (b) according to the transport Minister’s letter of 14/11/2017 to Ceredigion Council a “high-level” review of the Wrexham to Aberystwyth route was underway.

The introduction of the T3 Wrexham to Barmouth service was unfair, the 15 minute delays to to T2 departures in Dolgellau to wait for T3 services was unfair, introducing extra T3 services on 02/01/2018 to boost declining passenger numbers was unfair and removing connections between T2 and T1 services in Aberystwyth was unfair.
 

Bwsbro

Member
Joined
7 Oct 2013
Messages
391
My criticism is not really unfair.

The introduction of the T3 Wrexham to Barmouth service was unfair, the 15 minute delays to to T2 departures in Dolgellau to wait for T3 services was unfair, introducing extra T3 services on 02/01/2018 to boost declining passenger numbers was unfair and removing connections between T2 and T1 services in Aberystwyth was unfair.

Can you confirm what extra services were introduced in January 2018, as the only change to the timetable was a Schoolday's Peak Journey to Ysgol Bro Idris in Dolgellau. This replaced a former Express Motors Service 38, which Lloyds split to a Service 38 & T3.
 

TheGrandWazoo

Veteran Member
Joined
18 Feb 2013
Messages
21,087
Location
Somerset with international travel (e.g. across th
My criticism is not really unfair.

The T2 Bangor to Aberystwyth service (86 miles) and the T1 Aberystwyth to Carmarthen service (63 miles) were the first TrawsCymru services to be introduced providing a l49 mile highly strategic route, which was the only means of public transport between North and South Wales and connected in Carmarthen with the Great Western Railway from Carmarthen to Cardiff/London. The T3 Wrexham to Barmouth service (58 miles) was the next service to be introduced and was the preferred option of Welsh Government officials. Barmouth was not a key town and the route was not strategically important The Bevan Foundation Review was commissioned by the Welsh Government to obtain an independent view on how the TrawsCymru network should be developed before the T3.service was introduced. The Bevan Foundation Review recommended the T3 service should run from Wrexham to Aberystwyth (82 miles). connecting with the key towns of Welshpool and Newtown This would allow links to the Cambrian line rail network at Welshpool and Newtown, links to the TrawsCymru T4 Newtown to Cardiff service, and links in Aberystwyth to the T1 Aberystwyth to Carmarthen service – the T5 Aberystwyth to Cardigan,Fishguard service - and the T2 Aberystwyth to Bangor service. The Bevan Foundation Review recommendation to examine the feasibility of a T3 Wrexham to Aberystwyth service was ignored by Welsh Government officials.

Now 15 minute delays to T2 departures.in Dolgellau are necessary because the T3 from Wrexham cannot meet the Traffic Commissioner’s guidelines that 95% of services should arrive no later than 5 minutes after their published arrival time

On the 21st December 2017 an emergency short notice bus service registration was placed with the Traffic Commissioner for Wales to increase the number of T3 services between Wrexham and Barmouth The normal notice period for registrations is 56 days and the 21/12/2017 registration was effective from 02/01/2018. The increase in the number of T3 services between Wrexham and Barmouth was puzzling since (a) the number of passengers on the T3 service had dropped in 2017 from 187,947 in the year 2015/2016 to 166,637 in the year 2016/2017. (11.3% reduction.).and (b) according to the transport Minister’s letter of 14/11/2017 to Ceredigion Council a “high-level” review of the Wrexham to Aberystwyth route was underway.

The introduction of the T3 Wrexham to Barmouth service was unfair, the 15 minute delays to to T2 departures in Dolgellau to wait for T3 services was unfair, introducing extra T3 services on 02/01/2018 to boost declining passenger numbers was unfair and removing connections between T2 and T1 services in Aberystwyth was unfair.

It is beginning to seem like an overly strong focus with the T1/T2 connection in Aberystwyth and that is tainting your view.

The interchange at Dolgellau was always a long standing feature of the operations when it was the 94/2 in CW days and the X32/X94 in TrawsCambria. It usually involved a 10-15 min window at Eldon Square. In that respect, the T2 and T3 continue that tradition. That there is a 15 min window is just a reflection that you have a number of vehicles arriving at the same time and any one of them can be delayed for whatever reason - the A5 through Llangollen is particularly bad for that.

You have stated that "The Bevan Foundation Review recommended the T3 service should run from Wrexham to Aberystwyth (82 miles). connecting with the key towns of Welshpool and Newtown". That isn't actually true. That Winckler states that there should be a feasibility report on routeing it to Aberystwyth rather than Barmouth; that much is true but not that it was recommended. Similarly, you mention that "The T3 Wrexham to Barmouth service (58 miles) was the next service to be introduced and was the preferred option of Welsh Government officials. Barmouth was not a key town and the route was not strategically important". Again, the report actually says that there is "a consensus amongst stakeholders that there is a strong strategic case for the long-distance, north-south corridors" but also "Some stakeholders felt that the strategic case for the rest of the current network (i.e. Aberystwyth – Cardigan – Haverfordwest and Wrexham – Barmouth) was not quite as strong as for the north-south routes. That said, patronage indicates considerable demand.... These corridors also generate a reasonable number of enquiries to Traveline Cymru." - that isn't the same as it not being important. The route of the T3 is long standing, having been like it since it was the X94 and the D93/4 before that as a rail replacement service. In fact, the Winckler report stated that "The focus of effort in the short term should be on implementation of the five core TrawsCymru routes rather than expansion of the network as follows: Service T3 (Wrexham – Barmouth) should be progressed through a Quality Bus Partnership".

Whilst she did indeed mention the feasibility report, and this hasn't been pursued. However, there are some actually pretty logical reasons why that perhaps hasn't been pursued viz:
  • Would the T2 be truncated at Dolgellau? If not, then you would require doubling the service from Dolgellau to Aberystwyth so another two vehicles
  • If done, what would be the impact on the X28?
  • What would be the impact on the Barmouth to Dolgellau service? Removal of long standing links there?
Such issues were not addressed by the Winckler report and, to be honest, there's a lot of stuff in there that also doesn't exactly hold water. A proposal like the T7 Carmarthen, Llandovery, Brecon and Abergavenny that, if you know the area, is really two routes but with a big gap in the middle of nothingness (with the exception of Trecastle).

Don't get me wrong, I think there's a lot to criticise WG and the local authorities for with TC. The idea of the T10 trundling to serve the key traffic objective of Pentrefoelas was laughable were it not so serious. In times of limited funds, it would be better to invest in routes that might have some merit like a Brecon - Abergavenny - Monmouth - Newport or improving Carmarthen - Llandeilo - Llandovery. There are bigger fish to fry than the lack of connectivity in Aberystwyth between two buses services for which there will be limited crossover.
 

johntrawscymru

On Moderation
Joined
22 Jun 2018
Messages
118
Can you confirm what extra services were introduced in January 2018, as the only change to the timetable was a Schoolday's Peak Journey to Ysgol Bro Idris in Dolgellau. This replaced a former Express Motors Service 38, which Lloyds split to a Service 38 & T3.

The Welsh Government said they had increased the number of services – you could ask them although you would struggle to get them to answer. The arrival time in Aberystwyth of the 13.15 T2 Bangor to Aberystwyth service was changed from 16.35 to 16:50 so that connection of the T2 with the 16.40 T1 departure to Carmarthen was lost . Therefore by working back this T2 service had its departure time in Dolgellau changed from 15.20 to 15.35 to allow the 13.15 T3 service from Wrexham (arrives Dolgellau 15.25/departs 15.35) to connect with the T2. This may be the extra T3 service. You may be able to confirm this.

The T2 arrival in Aberystwyth at 18.40 which struggled to connect with the T1 departure to Carmarthen at 18.40 was another interesting one .On 02/01/2018 the Welsh Government changed the T2 arrival time to 18.50 by introducing a completely unnecessary 10 minute wait in Machynleth . Passengers on this T2 service are now treated to a 10 minute wait in Dolgellau (15 if the T3 from Wrexham is late) followed by a 10 minute wait 16 miles further along the line in Machynleth.. Is this really what passengers can expect from a long distance strategic service ?

The delayed departures of Trawscymru services are another interesting topic as they are only applied in Dolgellau. Back in 2015 the practice in Dolgellau was to have the standard timetable wait of 5 minutes and delayed departures up to 10 minutes. Following a complaint to the Traffic Commissioner Trawscymru were forced to delay departures by only the legal limit of 5 minutes. However the Welsh Government have managed to return to status quo by increasing the timetable wait from 5 minutes to 10 minutes.

If you have copies of old timetables I would be grateful if you could check when the timetable wait in Dolgellau was increased from 5 minutes to 10 minutes. I would ask the Welsh Government but I know they would refuse to answer.
 

Bwsbro

Member
Joined
7 Oct 2013
Messages
391
Additional journeys were introduced to the T2 in January 2018 under contract to TrawsCymru via Gwynedd Council contract - 07:05 & 14:05 ex Bangor, 09:00 & 12:00 ex Aberystwyth. Lloyds Coaches subsequently changed their operation of the T2 with Dolgellau, Machynlleth and the New Caenrarfon depot operating two vehicle workings.

Subsequent additional northern journeys were introduced as partial replacement of former Express Motors journeys in the Caernarfon area. Buses will timed to depart Bangor earlier to factor of diversion via Garndolbenmaen & subsequent Groeslon following request from local residents. Some positioning moves resulted in additional journey opportunities e.g. new 19:00 journey from Aberystwyth, as this is operated by a Dolgellau driver as far as Dolgellau, with a Caernarfon driver returning off the southbound Former Express Motors 17:20 ex Bangor diagram

In regards to extended journey times on the southern section of the T2. In January 2018 National Resources Wales commenced a major project of tree felling in the lower Dovey valley which would result in the A487 being closed for up to 10 minutes at a time when the trees were being felled. To minimise disruptions and missed connections journey times from Dolgellau to Machynlleth were extended of up to ten minutes.

You state that the lunchtime T2 journey was changed from departing Dolgellau at 15:20 to 15:35 in 2014. This is incorrect as the southbound T2 has never been in Dolgellau for 15:20

From 24.9.12 - 13:15 ex Bangor Station - 15:25/15:30 ex Dolgellau - Aberystwyth Arr 16:52, Morrisons 16:59
From 23.12.13 - 13:20 ex Bangor Station - 15:35/15:40 ex Dolgellau - Aberystwyth Arr 17:02, Morrisons 17:09
From 3.11.14 - 13:30 Express Motors Bangor - Dolgellau Arr 15:35, 15:40 Lloyds Dolgellau - Aberystwyth Arr 17:02, Morrisons 17:09
From Nov 2015 - 13:25 ex Bangor Bus Stn - 15:25/15:30 ex Dolgellau - 16:35 Aberystwyth, 16:40 Morrisons
From Jan 2018 - 13:15 ex Bangor Bus Stn - 15:25/15:35 ex Dolgellau - Arr Aberystwyth 16:50, 16:55 Morrisons

A northbound 15:20 from Dolgellau has operated since the days of the X32, this continued under T2 operation by Express Motors and is still the case under Lloyds Coaches, This service conveys students from Ysgol Bro Idris (Formally Ysgol y Gader) to the Blaenau Ffestiniog area

As part of the Retendering of the T2 & T3 in November 2014. Both services were revised to ensure connections in Dolgellau, this resulted in T2 departures moving from 20 past the hour in the afternoon to :35 as per today.

In regards to the 18:40 connection at Aberytsywth, this was never a recognised connection with the T1 9 times out of 10 the T1 would be departing the bus station in Aberystywth as the T2 was coming around the corner. Do remember that the T1 was tendered to First Cymru back in August 2014 (apart for longer running times to reflect traffic in the Carmarthen area the timetable hasn't been changed). At this time the T2 was only a Two full journeys a day (One Lloyds/Express) and a evening kiss and turn journey from both operators to/from Dolgellau, therefore there were no conditions for the T1 to connect with the T2 - This hasn't been revised by Carmarthenshire County Council who administer the contract on behalf of TrawsCymru. The initial 7 year contract expires in 2021.

You say in your comment that the T2 had a 10 minute wait on the 15:15 ex Bangor at Machynlleth in the timetable it doesn't the wait at Machynlleth is only 5 minutes which apart from the lunchtime and evening duty is standardised across the departures. On Schooldays this service is particularly full & standing departing Bangor, and is therefore late into Porthmadog so any padding times at stops are normally eaten up by late running journeys.

In regards to your T3 Comments, when retendered in November 2014. The 12:25 ex Wrexham would operate on Saturday & School Holidays to Barmouth, however on Schooldays it would terminate at Dolgellau.

The Bus would then operate a 15:18 Schoolbus to Drws y Nant, returning at 15:40 arriving in Dolgellau at 15:50. This bus would then depart Dolgellau at 16:18 operating via Coleg Meirion Dwyfor to Wrexham. On Saturday & School Holidays it would start at Barmouth at 15:50. This arrangement end in Febuary 2015 with a 501 School bus reintroduced and a 15:10 T3 introduced between Dolgellau & Barmouth with the 15:50 running from Barmouth all year.

Following the demise of GHA Coaches Lloyds Coaches operated a temporary timetable for a few days, the main timetable was then re-casted removing some GHA positioning journeys from Ruabon, now operated by Dolgellau and the introduction of a 06:20 express journey from Dolgellau to Llangollen.
 
Last edited:

johntrawscymru

On Moderation
Joined
22 Jun 2018
Messages
118
Additional journeys were introduced to the T2 in January 2018 under contract to TrawsCymru via Gwynedd Council contract - 07:05 & 14:05 ex Bangor, 09:00 & 12:00 ex Aberystwyth. Lloyds Coaches subsequently changed their operation of the T2 with Dolgellau, Machynlleth and the New Caenrarfon depot operating two vehicle workings.

Subsequent additional northern journeys were introduced as partial replacement of former Express Motors journeys in the Caernarfon area. Buses will timed to depart Bangor earlier to factor of diversion via Garndolbenmaen & subsequent Groeslon following request from local residents. Some positioning moves resulted in additional journey opportunities e.g. new 19:00 journey from Aberystwyth, as this is operated by a Dolgellau driver as far as Dolgellau, with a Caernarfon driver returning off the southbound Former Express Motors 17:20 ex Bangor diagram

In regards to extended journey times on the southern section of the T2. In January 2018 National Resources Wales commenced a major project of tree felling in the lower Dovey valley which would result in the A487 being closed for up to 10 minutes at a time when the trees were being felled. To minimise disruptions and missed connections journey times from Dolgellau to Machynlleth were extended of up to ten minutes.

You state that the lunchtime T2 journey was changed from departing Dolgellau at 15:20 to 15:35 in 2014. This is incorrect as the southbound T2 has never been in Dolgellau for 15:20

From 24.9.12 - 13:15 ex Bangor Station - 15:25/15:30 ex Dolgellau - Aberystwyth Arr 16:52, Morrisons 16:59
From 23.12.13 - 13:20 ex Bangor Station - 15:35/15:40 ex Dolgellau - Aberystwyth Arr 17:02, Morrisons 17:09
From 3.11.14 - 13:30 Express Motors Bangor - Dolgellau Arr 15:35, 15:40 Lloyds Dolgellau - Aberystwyth Arr 17:02, Morrisons 17:09
From Nov 2015 - 13:25 ex Bangor Bus Stn - 15:25/15:30 ex Dolgellau - 16:35 Aberystwyth, 16:40 Morrisons
From Jan 2018 - 13:15 ex Bangor Bus Stn - 15:25/15:35 ex Dolgellau - Arr Aberystwyth 16:50, 16:55 Morrisons

A northbound 15:20 from Dolgellau has operated since the days of the X32, this continued under T2 operation by Express Motors and is still the case under Lloyds Coaches, This service conveys students from Ysgol Bro Idris (Formally Ysgol y Gader) to the Blaenau Ffestiniog area

As part of the Retendering of the T2 & T3 in November 2014. Both services were revised to ensure connections in Dolgellau, this resulted in T2 departures moving from 20 past the hour in the afternoon to :35 as per today.

In regards to the 18:40 connection at Aberytsywth, this was never a recognised connection with the T1 9 times out of 10 the T1 would be departing the bus station in Aberystywth as the T2 was coming around the corner. Do remember that the T1 was tendered to First Cymru back in August 2014 (apart for longer running times to reflect traffic in the Carmarthen area the timetable hasn't been changed). At this time the T2 was only a Two full journeys a day (One Lloyds/Express) and a evening kiss and turn journey from both operators to/from Dolgellau, therefore there were no conditions for the T1 to connect with the T2 - This hasn't been revised by Carmarthenshire County Council who administer the contract on behalf of TrawsCymru. The initial 7 year contract expires in 2021.

You say in your comment that the T2 had a 10 minute wait on the 15:15 ex Bangor at Machynlleth in the timetable it doesn't the wait at Machynlleth is only 5 minutes which apart from the lunchtime and evening duty is standardised across the departures. On Schooldays this service is particularly full & standing departing Bangor, and is therefore late into Porthmadog so any padding times at stops are normally eaten up by late running journeys.

In regards to your T3 Comments, when retendered in November 2014. The 12:25 ex Wrexham would operate on Saturday & School Holidays to Barmouth, however on Schooldays it would terminate at Dolgellau.

The Bus would then operate a 15:18 Schoolbus to Drws y Nant, returning at 15:40 arriving in Dolgellau at 15:50. This bus would then depart Dolgellau at 16:18 operating via Coleg Meirion Dwyfor to Wrexham. On Saturday & School Holidays it would start at Barmouth at 15:50. This arrangement end in Febuary 2015 with a 501 School bus reintroduced and a 15:10 T3 introduced between Dolgellau & Barmouth with the 15:50 running from Barmouth all year.

Following the demise of GHA Coaches Lloyds Coaches operated a temporary timetable for a few days, the main timetable was then re-casted removing some GHA positioning journeys from Ruabon, now operated by Dolgellau and the introduction of a 06:20 express journey from Dolgellau to Llangollen.

Thank you for this information. I am extremely grateful as the Welsh Government have raised the drawbridge and refuse to answer questions. My first experience of using the T2/T1 service was in early 2015 and I failed to keep old timetables. I recently visited the Traffic Commissioner’s Office in Leeds to consult Trawscymru Bus Registrations but was told I could look at the timetables but not take any notes. The Traffic Commissioner has subsequently overruled the Leeds Office and at some stage I intend to go back again..

From your information I conclude that (a) No additional T3 journeys were introduced but additional journeys were introduced to the T2 in January 2018. (b) The T2 timetable wait in Dolgellau was increased from 5 minutes to 10 minutes in January 2018 which increased the total time to 15 minutes when 5 minute delayed departures.are employed. (c) The 15:25/15:30 ex Dolgellau arrived at 16:35 in Aberystwyth to connect with the T1 departure to Carmarthen at 16:40 and was changed in January 2018 to 15:25/15:35 ex Dolgellau arriving at 16:50 in Aberystwyth too late to connect with the T1 to Carmarthen. (d) Journey times from Dolgellau to Machynlleth were extended by up to ten minutes by a major project of tree felling in the lower Dovey valley which would result in the A487 being closed for up to 10 minutes at a time (e) the 18:40 T2/T1 at Aberytsywth was never a recognised connection. (f) the 15:15 ex Bangor at Machynlleth does not have a 10 minute wait in the timetable only 5 minutes.

You also pointed out the problem I have been relaying to the Welsh Government for the past 3 years on all Trawscymru services in Aberystwyth by saying “” with the 18:40 T1 9 times out of 10 the T1 would be departing the bus station in Aberystywth as the T2 was coming around the corner”” . From experience I would disagree with 9 times out of 10 – more like 5 out of 10. That comment can be applied to any T2 arrival in Aberystwyth that has experienced a delayed departure in Dolgellau to wait for the T3 from Wrexham as there is no delayed departure for the T1 in Aberystwyth and passengers are therefore being treated differently in Aberystwyth to Dolgellau. What is particularly annoying is that Trawscymru drivers, most of whom are dedicated to giving good service to the public, recognise the problem but are powerless to do anything as they have to stick rigorously to the timetable. The Welsh Government then say connectivity and punctuality are the responsibility of County Councils and the bus operator. I think you refer to this in your comments referring to Gwynedd County Council and Carmarthenshire County Council contracts

The tree felling in the lower Dovey valley starting in January 2018 is a bit of a red herring. . The tree felling was started in May 2018 not January and extended journey times by up to ten minutes were employed from January 2018 between Bangor and Porthmadog not between Dolgellau and Machynleth (departure times in Bangor were changed by 10 minutes). The tree felling only led to very intermittent delays as the band of trees close to the road were felled, and rarely led to any delays ( I travel that route almost daily originally by T2 but mainly by car now, and sometimes using the T2).. The extended journey times between Dolgellau and Machynleth were an excuse introduced by the Trawscymru Network Manager to provide an explanation of the inexplicable (ie the change to the T2 arrival time in Aberystwyth from 18.40 to 18.50). The Trawscymru Network Manager appeared to be confused as he quoted a major program of roadworks (not tree felling) for extended journey times and he may have been thinking of the Bontnewydd by-pass and the extended journey times that were introduced between Bangor and Porthmadog The tree felling was also stopped each day at 5.15 pm (a great big sign recorded this at the side of the road) and the 18.40 T2 arrival in Aberystwyth moved through Corris at around 5.50pm and so would not be held up. The 18.40 T2 arrival time in Aberystwyth was the only T2 service that had its running time changed by 10 minutes between Dolgellau and Aberystwyth. Every other T2 service had its total journey time changed by only 10 minutes (10 minutes extra run time between Bangor and Porthmadog) while the 18.40 had its total journey time changed by 20 minutes (10 minutes between Bangor and Porthmadog, and 10 minutes between Dolgellau and Aberystwyth) . It does therefore seem odd that the one service which could not possibly be held up by tree felling in Corris was the only one to have its running time between Dolgellau and Aberystwyth increased I believe the T2 timings were changed from arrive 18.05 in Machynleth to arrive 18.10 and as you rightly point out a 5 minute wait in the timetable to depart at 18.15. Just for good measure the T2 was also diverted near Aberystwyth off the A487 through Comins Coch. Following a complaint this diversion was removed as it was not recorded in the timetable or in the bus service registration. In practice this T2 service now arrives at 18.05 in Machynleth, as it used to do, waits unnecessarily for 10 minutes and then departs at 18.15. to go on to Aberystwyth. Strictly speaking the T2 service now arriving at 18.05 in Machynleth is breaking the Road Traffic Regulations by arriving 5 minutes early in Machynleth but I am loathe to complain to the Traffic Commissioner as Lloyd’s coaches are acting in the interests of their passengers as arriving at 18.05 does give passengers reaching the train station at 18.03 a chance to sprint 200 yards up the hill to catch the last usable train from Machynleth to London which leaves at 18.05 My recent experiences on the T2 indicate that if the 10 minutes waits in Machynleth were removed the T2 would arrive in 50% of cases before the T1 leaves at 18.40.

I also believe that prior to the January 2018 changes the 15:15 T2 ex Bangor ran straight through at Machynlleth and even now there is one T2 service arriving at Machynleth at 16.10 which does this. So the question is why has the 18.40 T2 arrival had its journey time extended by 20 minutes not 10 minutes like every other service and why is it waiting in Machynleth for 10 minutes (18miles after it has stopped for 10/15 minutes in Dolgellau).

If a 5 minute delayed departure was applied to the T1 in Aberystwyth then 100% of 13.15 T2 services ex Bangor would connect with the T1. The Welsh Government have refused to apply a 5 minute delayed departure, finally relying on the excuse that the T1 must retain its 12 minute connection time with the train from Carmarthen to Cardiff The Welsh Government have refused to release Trawscymru performance monitoring data for the T1 which Bus Users Cymru supply to the Trawscymru Network Manager. The Trawscymru Network Manager says he deletes the reports as they are of interest only to County Councils although County Councils do not receive the reports. The release of T1 Trawscymru performance monitoring data would show that, unlike the T3 service, 99% of T1 services arrive within 5 minutes of their publicised arrival time. The T3 service regularly fails to arrive within 10 minutes of its publicised arrival time which is why in January 2018 the timetabled T2 waits in Dolgellau were increased from 5 minutes to 10.minutes to make a 15 minute total with the 5 minute delayed departures. The T1 is the most stable of all the Trawscymru routes with all its route on A roads and as you point out timetables have not changed since 2014. It frequently has to stop at timing points to slow itself down and has more chance of arriving more than 1 minute early than it has of arriving more than 5 minutes late. There was no reason whatsoever fot the Welsh Government to not agree to an 18.45 T1 departure and this T2/T1 service could have been made into a connecting service.

The decision on which route the T3 would use was taken in 2014 in an unprofessional way by simply renaming an existing 53 year old route as T3 and not carrying out a feasibility study recommended by the Winckler review. The concensus would appear to be that all Trawscymru services have been arrived at by taking over old routes and therefore connectivity is not important except in the case of connectivity in Dolgellau. However taking over old routes is not the complete explanation. The real explanation is that there is no “Across Wales” strategy which should be led by the WAG and the Trawscymru Strategy Board. This means you end up with a non strategic 58 mile T3 service with the least number of passengers of any Trawscymru service being allowed to take precedence over a strategic 149 mile North/South T2/T1 corridor . You also end up with an 18.40 T2 arrival which does not connect with an 18.40 T1 departure, a new T1C Aberystwyth to Cardiff service which departs at 9.30 and does not connect with a 9.30 T2 arrival from Dolgellau, a T10 service which does not appear to have any passengers , and a T12 service that is a collection of Local bus services relabelled Trawscymru with multiple detours off the main route. .The Trawscymru network is supposedly a flagship illustrating the WAG policy on Transport, but in reality they fail to take responsibility for the network . The WAG White paper on Local Bus Services which finishes its consultation period in March has a hint that responsibility for Trawscymru will be shifted to County Councils.

Just to finish on a good note the WAG have finally succumbed after 9 months of cajoling and made the T2 (previously arrived 9.30 now arrives 9.20) and the T1C (departs 9.30) connecting services so passengers from Dolgellau can now use the T1C coach service to Cardiff. This is more down to the fact that the T2 operator (Lloyds of Machynleth) supported the change rather than due to action by the WAG. Perhaps that may prompt a review of T2/T1 connections in Aberystwyth ? You would think the T2/T1C connection would be publicised but the Trawscymru electronic screens are still fixed on the Trawscymru logo – no change there – a total waste of money as they are rarely in use on the T1,T2,T3,T5 and never show information useful to passengers.
 

johntrawscymru

On Moderation
Joined
22 Jun 2018
Messages
118
It is beginning to seem like an overly strong focus with the T1/T2 connection in Aberystwyth and that is tainting your view.

The interchange at Dolgellau was always a long standing feature of the operations when it was the 94/2 in CW days and the X32/X94 in TrawsCambria. It usually involved a 10-15 min window at Eldon Square. In that respect, the T2 and T3 continue that tradition. That there is a 15 min window is just a reflection that you have a number of vehicles arriving at the same time and any one of them can be delayed for whatever reason - the A5 through Llangollen is particularly bad for that.

You have stated that "The Bevan Foundation Review recommended the T3 service should run from Wrexham to Aberystwyth (82 miles). connecting with the key towns of Welshpool and Newtown". That isn't actually true. That Winckler states that there should be a feasibility report on routeing it to Aberystwyth rather than Barmouth; that much is true but not that it was recommended. Similarly, you mention that "The T3 Wrexham to Barmouth service (58 miles) was the next service to be introduced and was the preferred option of Welsh Government officials. Barmouth was not a key town and the route was not strategically important". Again, the report actually says that there is "a consensus amongst stakeholders that there is a strong strategic case for the long-distance, north-south corridors" but also "Some stakeholders felt that the strategic case for the rest of the current network (i.e. Aberystwyth – Cardigan – Haverfordwest and Wrexham – Barmouth) was not quite as strong as for the north-south routes. That said, patronage indicates considerable demand.... These corridors also generate a reasonable number of enquiries to Traveline Cymru." - that isn't the same as it not being important. The route of the T3 is long standing, having been like it since it was the X94 and the D93/4 before that as a rail replacement service. In fact, the Winckler report stated that "The focus of effort in the short term should be on implementation of the five core TrawsCymru routes rather than expansion of the network as follows: Service T3 (Wrexham – Barmouth) should be progressed through a Quality Bus Partnership".

Whilst she did indeed mention the feasibility report, and this hasn't been pursued. However, there are some actually pretty logical reasons why that perhaps hasn't been pursued viz:
  • Would the T2 be truncated at Dolgellau? If not, then you would require doubling the service from Dolgellau to Aberystwyth so another two vehicles
  • If done, what would be the impact on the X28?
  • What would be the impact on the Barmouth to Dolgellau service? Removal of long standing links there?
Such issues were not addressed by the Winckler report and, to be honest, there's a lot of stuff in there that also doesn't exactly hold water. A proposal like the T7 Carmarthen, Llandovery, Brecon and Abergavenny that, if you know the area, is really two routes but with a big gap in the middle of nothingness (with the exception of Trecastle).

Don't get me wrong, I think there's a lot to criticise WG and the local authorities for with TC. The idea of the T10 trundling to serve the key traffic objective of Pentrefoelas was laughable were it not so serious. In times of limited funds, it would be better to invest in routes that might have some merit like a Brecon - Abergavenny - Monmouth - Newport or improving Carmarthen - Llandeilo - Llandovery. There are bigger fish to fry than the lack of connectivity in Aberystwyth between two buses services for which there will be limited crossover.

You were correct that Winckler states that there should be a feasibility report on routeing the T3 to Aberystwyth rather than Barmouth. That feasibility study has not been carried out twice in 2014 and 2018.

The gist of your argument is that the WAG were correct to not carry out a feasibility study because “”The interchange at Dolgellau was always a long standing feature of the operations. and the route of the T3 is long standing, having been like it since it was the X94 and the D93/4 before that as a rail replacement service.””. I would say that this is the reason why the Trawscymru network is failing . The way the network is being developed is wrong. Why should a strategic long distance route be introduced by taking over a long standing 53 year old route that has 50% of its route along narrow B roads following a closed railway line ? The route has had no thought put into it , no changes from 53 years ago and because of that it cannot meet the Traffic Commissioner’s guidelines to arrive within 5 minutes of its published arrival time. The word interchange is also a misnomer when applied to Dolgellau compared to Bangor,Wrexham,Newtown,Aberystwyth, Cardigan, Carmarthen,Swansea, Cardiff.

In 2016 the T2 service was using a 15 min window to wait for the T3 (5 mins per the timetable in line with the Traffic Commissioner’s guidelines and 10 minutes delayed departure.). The Traffic Commissioner forced the WAG to reduce the 10 minutes delayed departure to the legal level of 5 minutes .In January 2018 the 15 min window was reinstated by 10 mins per the timetable and 5 minutes delayed departure.

I do not believe anyone could argue with the fact that a 15 min window for the T2 in Dolgellau will affect connections in Aberystwyth and that proved to be the case in January 2018.with 3 connections affected. The Traffic Commissioner’s guidelines state “”Buses should not depart from starting points and registered principal timing points more than 1 minute early or more than 5 minutes late, or arrive at the final destination point more than 5 minutes late. In general, 95% of buses should meet this standard. The traffic commissioners do not expect to find undue recovery time inserted in the timetable towards the end of a journey.”” . There is therefore some doubt whether the 15 minute window introduced in January 2018 for the T3 from Wrexham only 9 miles from its destination in Barmouth is following the Traffic Commissioner’s guidelines .My own observations indicate that less than 90% of T3 services comply with the Traffic Commissioner’s guideline’s at timing points and the fine for under 90% compliance is £100 - £250 per authorised vehicle;

The T3 route is failing and passenger numbers are declining.
Service ---- 2014/15 ---- 2016/17
T1 ------- 240,211 ---- 273,938
T2 ------- 108,588 ---- 234,430
T3 ------- 187,718 ---- 166,637
T5 ------- 417,336 ---- 434,350

T1/T2/T5 - 766,135 ---- 942,718
T2/T3 ---- 296,306 ---- 401,067

You provide “logical” reasons why the feasibility report on routeing the T3 to Aberystwyth rather than Barmouth. hasn't been pursued ie “Would the T2 be truncated at Dolgellau? If done, what would be the impact on the X28? What would be the impact on the Barmouth to Dolgellau service? “. This prejudges the feasibility report as there is an assumption in those questions that the Wrexham to Aberystwyth route would follow the Wrexham to Barmouth route with the 20 mile diversion through the Transport Ninister’s constituency of South Clwyd on minor B roads. I would suggest the feasibility study would identify a better route. I am just as guilty of prejudging the route by quoting a direct route through Welshpool/Newtown/Llanidloes. The T2 and X28 routes would be unaffected if this direct route was employed and the T2 would be released from the “15 minute window “ straitjacket in Dolgellau.. The Wrexham to Barmouth route obviously needs a service so why not make it X94 or D93/4 just as it was before since the current T3 follows exactly the same route.

The final comments were “”There are bigger fish to fry than the lack of connectivity in Aberystwyth between two buses services for which there will be limited crossover. It would be better to invest in routes that might have some merit like a Brecon - Abergavenny - Monmouth - Newport or improving Carmarthen - Llandeilo - Llandovery. “”. The above passenger figures indicate there is not “limited crossover” in Aberystwyth compared to Dolgellau. The 3 services using the Aberystwyth interchange have nearly 3 times the footfall of the 2 services using the Dolgellau interchange. I have no experience of the routes you quote but I would have thought they would have no more merit than the T2/T1 (Bangor/Carmarthen) corridor which is the only public transport option to link North West and South West Wales.

I would agree entirely that new routes should be invested in , but only after diligent feasibility studies which are published and open for public consultation. The T10 and T12 services were arrived at with no such feasibility study Can we have no more confidential decisions on routes made by individuals. No more 53 year old T3 routes, introduced on a nod and a wink, and trundling along B roads .No more T10 routes that have no passenger base, and an interchange at Corwen with the T3 heaping yet more misery on the T2 service. No more tortuous T12 routes produced by cobbling together a number of local bus services. The WAG should stick to the principle that Trawscymru is a network of strategic services linking the key towns of Wales. The diversions down the B roads should be left to be covered by Local Buses.
 
Last edited:
Joined
24 Jul 2011
Messages
503
Location
Wigan
Despite the service starting almost 6 months ago, the T12 has finally got a mention on the TrawsCymru routes webpage!
However a new updated route map gives the impression that the route has been downgraded to a "TrawsCymru Connect" route. That said, the map has also gained the 460 & X43 routes, which have been added as Connect routes - suprise suprise, there's no information to describe what exactly the differences are between the "normal" and "connect" routes/times/fares.

T12 page: http://www.trawscymru.info/t12/
Network Map: http://www.trawscymru.info/routes/
 

carlberry

Established Member
Joined
19 Dec 2014
Messages
3,169
Despite the service starting almost 6 months ago, the T12 has finally got a mention on the TrawsCymru routes webpage!
However a new updated route map gives the impression that the route has been downgraded to a "TrawsCymru Connect" route. That said, the map has also gained the 460 & X43 routes, which have been added as Connect routes - suprise suprise, there's no information to describe what exactly the differences are between the "normal" and "connect" routes/times/fares.

T12 page: http://www.trawscymru.info/t12/
Network Map: http://www.trawscymru.info/routes/
I'm very grateful for the 'weekend travel ideas' section which shows a variety of events from last winter (or possibly the winter before) and the Snowdon Sherpa timetable from 2017 (a great vintage!).
 

transmanche

Established Member
Joined
27 Feb 2011
Messages
6,018
However a new updated route map gives the impression that the route has been downgraded to a "TrawsCymru Connect" route.
Indeed, the T12 page actually states it's a 'Connect' route.

there's no information to describe what exactly the differences are between the "normal" and "connect" routes/times/fares.
Quite, TrawsCymru seem keen to keep everything quite mysterious!
 

Llandudno

Established Member
Joined
25 Dec 2014
Messages
2,454
Despite the service starting almost 6 months ago, the T12 has finally got a mention on the TrawsCymru routes webpage!
However a new updated route map gives the impression that the route has been downgraded to a "TrawsCymru Connect" route. That said, the map has also gained the 460 & X43 routes, which have been added as Connect routes - suprise suprise, there's no information to describe what exactly the differences are between the "normal" and "connect" routes/times/fares.

T12 page: http://www.trawscymru.info/t12/
Network Map: http://www.trawscymru.info/routes/

Interesting to see the network map and how unbalanced the services are with no services in the vicinity of the North Wales Coast. Yes, there are regular trains over most of the route, but no attempt to offer/suggest connections or inter availability of tickets between train and bus.

There is, of course the highly secretive North Wales Rover which they don’t tell anyone about!

Not to mention of course that all the TrawsCymru buses are free at the weekends paid for by the tax payer, whilst bus users in the North have to pay fares. .... and taxes of course!
 

anamyd

Established Member
Joined
17 Aug 2018
Messages
3,038
I just loved when there was no sign of the old First T1C to Aberystwyth at Swansea City Bus Station at least half an hour after departure time one evening, so I called TrawsCymru (in North Wales...?) and a young lad, obviously younger than me, was on the other end and he just said "oh yeah if you wait a bit longer it should turn up" (which it did to be fair) so I was like "sound". Great helpline! :lol:
 

DaveHarries

Established Member
Joined
12 Dec 2011
Messages
2,447
Location
England
The VOSA Bus Service registrations for today (26th March 2019) contain what looks to be an answer to this.

The registrations for today contain a number of entries from William JM Richards of which two are:

PG0005878/24 Cancelled (Short notice)
WILLIAM JM RICHARDS & PARTNERS
Route: Fishguard Square to St. Davids, New Street via. Scleddau, Letterston, Castle Morris, Mathry, Croesgoch, Eisteddfod Site
Service Number: 411
Service Type: Hail & Ride, Normal Stopping
Effective Date: 07th May 2019

which looks to have been replaced, albeit possibly only in part, with a new Traws Cymru route of which registration can be found in the same bulletin:

PG0005878/79 Registered (Short notice)
WILLIAM JM RICHARDS & PARTNERS
Route: Fishguard Square to Haverfordwest Rail Station via. St. Davids
Service Number: T11
Service Type: Normal Stopping
Effective Date: 07th May 2019

HTIOI,
Dave
 

johntrawscymru

On Moderation
Joined
22 Jun 2018
Messages
118
Timetable for the T11 service. Enhanced hourly frequency between Fishguard and St Davids from the two hourly 413.
https://www.traveline.cymru/uploads...mru-T11_-_Fishguard_-_St_Davids-1/T11RBA1.pdf

T11 Fishguard - St. Davids – Haverfordwest 32 miles 1 hour 38 mins.

Fishguard to Haverfordwest 23 min (15.3 mi) via A40

Haverfordwest to St Davids 27 min (16.0 mi) via A487

St Davids to Fishguard 25 min (15.4 mi) via A487

Does anyone know where the T11 was dreamed up?
The route is not mentioned in any strategy document and I wonder whether there has been any public consultation or evaluation carried out on this route.
St Davids cannot be called a strategic location and is virtually empty outside the holiday season.
Fishguard to Haverfordwest is 23 min by car and the T11 takes 1 hour 38 mins, so if travellers have the option of going by car they will take that option.

Perhaps the answer may be found in the Welsh Assembly Transcripts, where on 09/05/2019 the Transport Minister said “”Well, TfW have set up a data analytics unit , and they're currently in the process of purchasing mobile phone data, which will be extremely useful in assessing how, when, where, why people travel. This investment in the analytical unit in Transport for Wales is so important, to be able to give us that level of understanding, all across Wales, to be able to plan interventions in the best possible way, based on evidence.””

It looks as though consultation with passengers is a thing of the past and routes will be dreamt up by Welsh Government officials using mobile phone data .
 

Dai Corner

Established Member
Joined
20 Jul 2015
Messages
6,775
I wonder how well the demographics of bus passengers, potential bus passengers, mobile phone users and people who respond to Government consultations correspond?
 

johntrawscymru

On Moderation
Joined
22 Jun 2018
Messages
118
I wonder how well the demographics of bus passengers, potential bus passengers, mobile phone users and people who respond to Government consultations correspond?
Good point. A difficult problem which requires detailed analysis and a clear strategy.
Unfortunately the Welsh Government do not believe in detailed analysis, which is why no information can be found on the evaluation of the new Trawscymru routes.
As for the strategy there does not appear to be one. The following WAG statements are the nearest I can find to a strategy “”TrawsCymru longer distance bus services are an important part of the integrated public transport network in Wales. The most effective way of improving access to essential services will be to improve links between key settlements. The most appropriate method for doing this should be determined using WelTAG. We are determined that, in the future, schemes coming forward will be robust, deliverable and based on a sound strategic imperative and economic analysis.””
The strategy with the most recent Trawscymru services introduced appears to be to find existing local bus services and link them together rebranding the combined route as a Trawscymru service. The T10, T11, T12 services have no published evaluation and the WAG have refused to answer whether any evaluation has been carried out. The net result is that the Trawscymru network is no longer a strategic network linking key settlements. The T10, T11, T12 services are certainly “longer distance services” with all the detours. Still no news on Bangor to Chirk/Oswestry ? Perhaps it has been dropped.
The mobile phone data is a strange one. I should imagine trying to statistically analyse mobile phone locations and relate that to potential bus routes would be a nightmare. How would the distinction be made between potential passengers and those who were not potential passengers (eg workmen, delivery drivers, multiple occupancy vehicles, etc). We are on a biker route, as are other areas in Wales, and this can double the volume of traffic, but their mobile phones will not identify potential passengers. The mobile phone will not identify how the owner travelled between 2 locations. If I travelled from Aberystwyth to Newtown I could have travelled by bicycle, motorbike, car, bus or train. I cannot see how mobile phone data can be used to plan bus routes. It would be interesting to know whether mobile phone data has been used for this purpose anywhere else.
 

markymark2000

Established Member
Joined
11 May 2015
Messages
4,109
Location
Western Part of the UK
I don't know about the data which the Welsh Govt are purchasing but Google has data on how we travel. On my phone, as it tracks my location, it knows how I travelled. Walk, Cycle and Drive I think it has. I am unsure if it shows public transport but you may be able to work that out by where someone walked to and how long they were there.
It will help to work out some bus routes but most people are 'above' buses and see them in the same way Americans do (buses are for poor people who can't afford cars). I have members in my family who almost have a meltdown when they get told they have to get the bus as their car is due in for service. They will do all they can to avoid it.

That is where the issue lies. Promoting the benefits and making journeys faster by introducing bus priority and trying to keep fares as low as possible (reducing fuel tax for buses for example). Also, the more you do to lower the costs, the more independants will start or the more the existing with fight which eventually leads to lower fares with the competition.

TrawsCymru is not about fast journeys, it's about serving every village with more than 20 residents to give everyone a bus service. The idea is the Welsh Government wanting to bring back public controlled buses and this is the way to do it. Start with the tendered runs as they are easy to do but then start competing in a roundabout way with commercial bus services.
 

johntrawscymru

On Moderation
Joined
22 Jun 2018
Messages
118
I don't know about the data which the Welsh Govt are purchasing but Google has data on how we travel. On my phone, as it tracks my location, it knows how I travelled. Walk, Cycle and Drive I think it has. I am unsure if it shows public transport but you may be able to work that out by where someone walked to and how long they were there.
It will help to work out some bus routes but most people are 'above' buses and see them in the same way Americans do (buses are for poor people who can't afford cars). I have members in my family who almost have a meltdown when they get told they have to get the bus as their car is due in for service. They will do all they can to avoid it.

That is where the issue lies. Promoting the benefits and making journeys faster by introducing bus priority and trying to keep fares as low as possible (reducing fuel tax for buses for example). Also, the more you do to lower the costs, the more independants will start or the more the existing with fight which eventually leads to lower fares with the competition.

TrawsCymru is not about fast journeys, it's about serving every village with more than 20 residents to give everyone a bus service. The idea is the Welsh Government wanting to bring back public controlled buses and this is the way to do it. Start with the tendered runs as they are easy to do but then start competing in a roundabout way with commercial bus services.

Thanks for the info. Was not aware of the Google angle. I have since found an evaluation of the Mobile Phone technique (MPD) by the Office of National Statistics (ONS) which can be found at:
https://www.ons.gov.uk/census/censu...susingmobilephonedatatoestimatecommutingflows
Very interesting but the Welsh Government may have wasted our money in buying the data.
Mobile network operators (MNOs) are able to estimate the geographical areas [Local Authority (LA)] containing the usual residence and place of work for their subscribers. The MNOs are then able to produce transport-related estimates including commuter flows, denoting commuters who are resident in each LA and their movement to their main workplace LA. Commuter flow estimates for three target LAs (Southwark ,Croydon and Lambeth.) were modelled by a data analytics company (CitiLogik) from mobile phone data (MPD) from 1 of the 4 main UK MNOs,( Vodafone UK). The methodology used to derive commuter flows from mobile phone data (MPD) is owned by the MNO and the data analytics company.
The evaluation by the ONS identified the following problems for these 3 geographically small LAs. (1) Students being mistakenly inferred as commuters as their movement behaviour will be similar. (2) Children of secondary school age and in higher education might therefore also be included in the MPD flows. (3) Commuters belonging to higher socio-economic groups who are more likely to carry more than one mobile phone and to be identified as multiple commuters. (4) Difficulty in differentiating road and rail travel. (5) Commuters whose journeys start and end in the same LA are greatly overestimated using MPD.


Problems (2) and (5) would present a difficulty in Wales. Schoolchildren can travel over long distances to reach school and cross LA boundaries so they would be classed as commuters . Local Authority Areas are large and most people travel within their LA area so that commuters would be greatly overestimated using MPD . The fact that MPD analysis is done at LA level would also present a difficulty in predicting bus routes because it would be pointless knowing that a number of commuters were travelling for example between Carmarthenshire and Powys unless you knew the start and end point of their journey.

There are 2 other reasons why using MPD would be difficult in Wales.

(6) In a recent survey, two Welsh areas were among the top 10 in the UK to be lacking in coverage. Powys and Gwynedd were both found to have a combined total of 624 miles of roads with no mobile coverage at all, No mobile coverage means no MPD commuter flows

(7) There are 4 MNOs in the UK ( O2 , Vodafone , Three ,and EE). These 4 may have different methodologies to derive commuter flows. The Welsh Government would have to obtain data from all 4 MNOs .

Most people are 'above' buses as you say. I have a brother who refuses to use them, although we are from a ”Working Class” background. His argument is purely based on time to go places by bus. TrawsCymru is not about fast journeys, as you point out, which is why Welsh residents invariably use the car and only use the Trawscymru services for short local journeys. The proposed T10, the T11 and the T12 are perfect examples of slow local services and cannot be classed as long distance services.
 

rich.davies

Member
Joined
18 Apr 2011
Messages
164
Location
Wrexham
A Traws route that goes from Wrexham via Betws Y Coed, Llanberis and on to Bangor would be an idea. Would make the Snowdon path a bit more accessible to those without a car.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top