Tramways: Which towns and cities would benefit most?

[Bletchleyite]

Just came across this proposal for South Hants light rail

Though it did happen in a form - the Eclipse (non-"mis"guided) busway was built.

 

[Chester1]

Leeds also lack a decent local heavy rail system, so is over-reliant on a ridiculous amount of buses, which further accentuates the problem.

What's the answer for Leeds though, the city is choking and creaking under current traffic levels. The bus network is at the mercy of the aforementioned heavy traffic. I work at St James' and it takes 20 minutes in a morning for the 16 to chug up there, Beckett Street is nose to tail and in the evening it can take longer than 20 minutes back to the city.

What's the answer? Something needs to change but there is no quick fix as everyone keeps dragging their feet and not coming up with any solid plans.

A priority system would improve the network. My fair limited experience of bus in Leeds is that they are good for getting to the edge of the city centre and awful once they get there. Manchester's new priority system seems to be working fairly well. Its not a silver bullet but a priority system and bus franchising would help.

Any other European country would have built a metro there by now, probably across the whole West Yorkshire conurbation taking in Bradford as well. It's the largest urban area in Europe without a metro or light rail system and there isn't anything especially unusual about the city that means one wouldn't work. It's not a quick fix but it would have been done by now if Alastair Darling hadn't cancelled the Leeds tram in 2005. I agree with other posters than an underground would be better, but trams would still be good.

Here's the letters page from the time from the Yorkshire Evening Post: https://www.yorkshireeveningpost.co.uk/news/opinion/a-city-betrayed-1-2136196

Leeds as a large metro system, its just heavy rail not light rail. Electrification to Huddersfield, Harrogate and Bradford Interchange and battery EMUs or bi modes would make a big difference. I am not sure what the niche for light rail would be in Leeds.

 

[Adsy125]

I'm surprised that Poole Bay (Poole, Bournemouth, Christchurch and surrounding towns) hasn't been mentioned. It is larger than many suggestions here like Oxford, Cambridge, Brighton, Reading and others. It also suffers from bad traffic congestion during rush hour, which the buses get stuck in. Even off peak it takes a silly amount of time to get from one end to the other. The layout is also ideal for a simple tram network, roughly parallel to the morebus M1/M2 and Yellowbuses 1 route.

 

[Edders23]

Cambridge, if a palatable way of getting it though the city centre can be found.

trouble is the council there LOVES buses

 

[pieguyrob]

Blackpool is an obvious one - extend the tram along Layton Rd toward Poulton, then link it into the Fleetwood line via Thornton.

Don't see how that would work. Layton Road starts at Layton Square by the old libary and runs south to Newton Drive by the NO.4 Pub. It goes nowhere near where trams used to go or Poulton. (I am a taxi driver in Blackpool so know these roads well).

What I think you meant to say is, the tram should take its old route down Talbot road, to Layton Square then continue on Westcliffe Drive to Poulton road which then becomes Garstang Road West and then go through Poulton to join up with the old Burn Naze railway to Fleetwood.

Not happening. Neither is the old Marton circle.

If anything the tram would join the Burn Naze route at the Fleetwood end with a terminus in Poulton, and the Blackpool South route converted to tram use. That proposal has already been put forward by local councillors.

 

[pieguyrob]

Oh and the farce that is the tram extension from the prom to north station is NOT well liked by locals. Having lost count of number of times I have had that discussion in my taxi with a wide selection of local people. It would have been far easier and simpler to redirect the number 1 bus to the station. The bus has more space for luggage.

Also for a lot of local people is the inaccessibility of the tram. My nearest tram stop is a mile and a half away. There is a bus stop at the end of my street that takes me to the station.

NOT everyone in Blackpool lives on the promenade.

 

[GrimShady]

Glasgow.

 

[Karl]

Top tip, the all-day adult tram/bus ticket for Blackpool/Fleetwood/Lytham etc - get it off the driver (conductor if tram).

How much is it for an adult ticket please? I quite often visit Blackpool but never use the trams. I'd love a ride though.

 

[Howardh]

How much is it for an adult ticket please? I quite often visit Blackpool but never use the trams. I'd love a ride though.

£5.50 adult all-day, all buses and trams (except the heritage ones) https://www.blackpooltransport.com/saver-tickets

 

[Karl]

Thanks for that, it's handy to know for when I next visit. Cheers.

 

[Rhydgaled]

Surprised nobody's mentioned Cardiff, where a (very) short tram-train route is planned. I think that should be expanded, taking FLIRTs off the Coryton line and putting them on the longer journeys (to Aberdare/Treherbert/Merthyr) freeing up the tram-train units for more on-street sections and extension of the Coryton line to Taff's Well (which should be the furthest north the (toiletless) tram-train units should work).

Despite travelling through both Cardiff and Swansea on heavy rail services many times, I've not spent much time looking around the cities (so am not an expert on travel patterns there etc.), but I think Swansea ought to have a tram link between the main railway station ('Swansea High Street') and the bus station ('Quadrant'). Of course that doesn't make a tram system by itself, so other routes would be needed too. Other topics on here previously have discussed the impossibility of reopening the Mumbles railway, but as a tram service with on-street sections it ought to be possible. From looking at maps / Google Earth, the following also look interesting:

• Llangennech-Bynea-Llanelli Bus Station-(Llanelli)-Gowerton-Dunvant-Killay-Sketty-Swansea,
  
• Swansea-Landore (for stadium)-Morriston (perhaps the trickiest) and
• Swansea-(Fabian Way P&R)-(Jersey Marine)-(Neath Abbey)-Neath

Llanelli, Fabian Way P&R, Jersey Marine and Neath Abbey are in brackets above as these look like being sections where a tram-train sharing heavy-rail infrustructure could be helpful. I'd suggest low-floor tram-trains like Sheffield's for this, since there would only be four stations (Llanelli, Swansea High Street, Fabian Way P&R and Neath Abbey) served by both heavy rail and the new tram-train system. Heavy rail services at Fabian Way P&R would run to Morriston/Clydach (via Llandarcy) and Aberdare/Cardiff (via Glynneath and Hirwaun). Ideally these would run through to Swansea High Street rather than passengers having to change onto a tram at Fabian Way P&R, but I used to think this wasn't possible (the suggestion by Prof. Mark Barry of using the route through Jersey Marine for services to London now has me wondering whether heavy rail could link into High Street after all).

What's the answer for Leeds though, the city is choking and creaking under current traffic levels. The bus network is at the mercy of the aforementioned heavy traffic. I work at St James' and it takes 20 minutes in a morning for the 16 to chug up there, Beckett Street is nose to tail and in the evening it can take longer than 20 minutes back to the city.

What's the answer? Something needs to change but there is no quick fix as everyone keeps dragging their feet and not coming up with any solid plans.

I don't know Leeds well either (stayed there for a night or two once, but several years ago and my memory of it is very vauge), but given the comments above that closing roads can reduce congestion I would suggest closing roads to private vehicles on a trial basis (running frequent buses using the closed roads). If congestion worsens, you have closed the wrong roads; reopen them and try closing different roads. When you've found routes that work, put down tram tracks on the closed roads to replace the buses.

 

[IanXC]

I raise Hull as an option. It has a wealth of wide routes, patronised by frequent bus services.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

+1 for Brighton considering it is a busy city and has a football stadium and university within its catchment

 

[Randomer]

I don't know Leeds well either (stayed there for a night or two once, but several years ago and my memory of it is very vauge), but given the comments above that closing roads can reduce congestion I would suggest closing roads to private vehicles on a trial basis (running frequent buses using the closed roads). If congestion worsens, you have closed the wrong roads; reopen them and try closing different roads. When you've found routes that work, put down tram tracks on the closed roads to replace the buses.

I think the issue might be that there are areas where buses are already running at a 5 minute or less frequency at peak times on segregated bus lanes and still can't cope with the volume of passengers currently using them which means a lot of people will drive rather than take the risk of not being able to get on the bus. Closing the roads which run alongside them wouldn't allow a more frequent bus service but would just divert the traffic to other smaller routes.

Certain main corridors (e.g A64 towards York or A647 towards Bradford) are already pretty much at capacity bus wise during the morning and evening peaks but still have huge traffic problems at peak times. Arguably money could be spent fixing bottle necks e.g. the Armley Gyratory which can hold up bus traffic if it gets busy enough to prevent buses getting to the bus lanes from town but the local council are already proposing fixes to that.

I think Leeds along with other urban areas like Cardiff has reached a point at which some form of mass transit system with greater capacity than buses alone is required. Possibly this could be light rail along some of the previously used tram routes (bus routes 1,2 and 3 are still pretty much identical to old tram routes and still heavily used.) Alternatively much better heavy rail provision with reopening of previously closed local stations but this runs into the issue of these lines being heavily used already with little resilience left for extra traffic at a sensible frequency.

 

[edwin_m]

If the railways still exist then there is probably scope, outside South East England, to increase capacity by longer trains. This obviously needs more trains and also some improvement to stations and depots but a lot less than building a new railway.

Unfortunately in most of those places that lack transport capacity, there is no railway and any former railway alignment has been lost. Reinstating a former street tram route is probably impossible because to work properly it needs it own lane, and even if enough lanes exist there will be a lot of objection to taking one from general traffic. Street track is also more expensive than ballasted track and streets are much more likely to have undergound utilities that need costly work. There are some places where former segregated tramways survive as wide central reservations and similar, but it's rare for those to extend into the city centre where they are most needed.

So there are plenty of places that might benefit from a proper tram system, but rather fewer where it might be possible to provide one.

 

[d9009alycidon]

Glasgow.

There have been various proposals for re-introduction of the Trams to Glasgow, ideas have included a tramlink to the airport via Braehead and the Death Star (QEII Hospital), also conversion of the Cathcart Circle from Heavy Rail to a Tram.

 

[takno]

If the railways still exist then there is probably scope, outside South East England, to increase capacity by longer trains. This obviously needs more trains and also some improvement to stations and depots but a lot less than building a new railway.

Unfortunately in most of those places that lack transport capacity, there is no railway and any former railway alignment has been lost. Reinstating a former street tram route is probably impossible because to work properly it needs it own lane, and even if enough lanes exist there will be a lot of objection to taking one from general traffic. Street track is also more expensive than ballasted track and streets are much more likely to have undergound utilities that need costly work. There are some places where former segregated tramways survive as wide central reservations and similar, but it's rare for those to extend into the city centre where they are most needed.

So there are plenty of places that might benefit from a proper tram system, but rather fewer where it might be possible to provide one.

Not arguing with the extra cost of on-street running, but as far as complaints about dedicated lanes go I don't think we've got much choice but to start facing them down more. We know we can't get everybody where they need to go if they go there in a car, and sooner or later we've got to stop trying. In practice fear of opposition, or spending too long listening to minority-but-vocal opposition stops us from building a lot of useful infrastructure, and as long as the tram you put in works then people only tend to stay angry for the construction period anyway. After 5 years virtually everybody's moved on to something else

 

[edwin_m]

Of course if buses were franchised and re-planned as tram feeders instead of using the same roads, bus lanes could be replaced by tramways...

 

[cnjb8]

You're all complaining about traffic the tram system needs a Park and Ride! It clearly works in places like York (even without the tram) and Nottingham (I live here so I see it every day). The car must be moved away from, it's a waste of space. A tram could take 70-100 people, that's potentially 70-100 cars of the road and space saved!

 

[AndyHudds]

You're all complaining about traffic the tram system needs a Park and Ride! It clearly works in places like York (even without the tram) and Nottingham (I live here so I see it every day). The car must be moved away from, it's a waste of space. A tram could take 70-100 people, that's potentially 70-100 cars of the road and space saved!

Leeds has a park and ride scheme but the roads are choked still.

 

[HSTEd]

Park and ride schemes need substantial road spending on orbital roads to carry traffic to the park and ride centres.

 

[Ianno87]

Leeds has a park and ride scheme but the roads are choked still.

Ditto Cambridge.

 

[IanXC]

Park and ride schemes need substantial road spending on orbital roads to carry traffic to the park and ride centres.

Or, probably cheaper, many many park and ride sites, so that traffic can arrive at the outskirts and park up, rather than need to be conveyed by such orbital roads in the first place.

This being exactly what York has done, with 6 park and ride sites meaning that every A road approaching York has one.

 

[HSTEd]

Or, probably cheaper, many many park and ride sites, so that traffic can arrive at the outskirts and park up, rather than need to be conveyed by such orbital roads in the first place.

This being exactly what York has done, with 6 park and ride sites meaning that every A road approaching York has one.

Park and ride with buses is one thing.
Park and ride with trams is most certainly not cheaper than orbital roads.

 

[PartyOperator]

It’s cheaper if the trams are there anyway. If you’re taking lanes from motor vehicle traffic to create the tramway (a good idea since existing roads are often ideally located for new tram routes, plus reducing car lanes leading into the city reduces traffic in the busiest areas), sticking a big car park at the outer terminus makes a lot of sense. It should make journeys into the centre quicker and more consistent than driving all the way so drivers can’t complain about being disadvantaged by ‘their’ lanes being taken away.

 

[edwin_m]

Even in Nottingham, where the council is particularly pro-public transport, they shied away from taking roadspace on key radial/orbital routes for the tram. So where there is no useable rail alignment it follows secondary roads which in some cases are little more than back streets. We're a long way from the situation where taking big chunks of major highways for use by trams is acceptable.

 

[PaulMc7]

I've seen suggestions for Glasgow but I personally wouldn't have it here. A slight drop in train and bus fares is required as well as a car free zone within the city centre and that would probably work better. Problem is that First are up for sale and Mcgills are having problems so buses are certainly an issue just now and the trains have problems on a daily basis thanks to poor reliability, network rail and a lot of breakdowns. I think road closures to implement a tram system would also turn a lot of people away from the centre of Glasgow and I wouldn't think they would want to return given how long it would take for the tram network to be in place

 

[HSTEd]

It’s cheaper if the trams are there anyway. If you’re taking lanes from motor vehicle traffic to create the tramway (a good idea since existing roads are often ideally located for new tram routes, plus reducing car lanes leading into the city reduces traffic in the busiest areas), sticking a big car park at the outer terminus makes a lot of sense. It should make journeys into the centre quicker and more consistent than driving all the way so drivers can’t complain about being disadvantaged by ‘their’ lanes being taken away.

That is going to require at least three tram lines in the York case, each spanning pretty much the entire width of the city!

That's an awfully extensive system.
Poppleton to Grimston Bar is something like 9km even as the crow flies.

At least 30km of tram system - its already the size of the Nottingham system....... For a city with a population of 200k!

I know they aren't popular as this is a rail forum, but you'd have better luck with a rubber type mini-metro like the VAL system used in Rennes.
Then you don't have to take road space at all and you can get high frequencies even on small capacity systems.

EDIT:

An 80% underground 12.6km mini-metro line costs about €1bn (hard to get an exact figure in English) going by Rennes Line B. With 15 stations.

I imagine we might get economies of scale if we started spamming them, but it is something to think about given the rather large cost of recent tram systems.

 

[takno]

I've seen suggestions for Glasgow but I personally wouldn't have it here. A slight drop in train and bus fares is required as well as a car free zone within the city centre and that would probably work better. Problem is that First are up for sale and Mcgills are having problems so buses are certainly an issue just now and the trains have problems on a daily basis thanks to poor reliability, network rail and a lot of breakdowns. I think road closures to implement a tram system would also turn a lot of people away from the centre of Glasgow and I wouldn't think they would want to return given how long it would take for the tram network to be in place

Nice try, but there is no way on earth the train fares are too high in Glasgow - the place is an absolute bargain. If cars are still cheaper it's probably because Glasgow city centre is one of the most car oriented centres in Britain. Close a lot of roads to traffic and stick in a clean air zone and then we can see where we are.

 

[PaulMc7]

Nice try, but there is no way on earth the train fares are too high in Glasgow - the place is an absolute bargain. If cars are still cheaper it's probably because Glasgow city centre is one of the most car oriented centres in Britain. Close a lot of roads to traffic and stick in a clean air zone and then we can see where we are.

Unless you are only going 1 or 2 stops max with the train where I stay in Glasgow it's far better to use the bus and a lot of people do find it expensive. It's better for families with kids though. Yeah I agree with the clean air zone and with the low emission zone coming in 2022 I think the city could be in a good place