Killingworth
Established Member
deltic08 said: ↑
A cut-off at Poppleton is not feasible and a ridiculous idea
Looking at the map it looks a highly feasible and sensible idea. It might still cost £25million.
deltic08 said: ↑
A cut-off at Poppleton is not feasible and a ridiculous idea
You are just talking drivel. Get your facts straight before posting.I am far poorer as a result of money being poured down the drain to prop up services that are maintained for political reasons even though capital expenditure would likely render them less of a money pit.
The Whitby Branch, or the Barton on Humber branch being obvious examples.
Or the Newquay branch.
None of these services are worth maintaining in their current joke of a form, but the BCR is then used as a reason why we shouldn't spend any capital money to try and make any of those railways worthwhile.
It's a city with a population of 12000.
Should we build a railway to St David's because it is a cathedral city?
Resilience is worth almost nothing.
Aerial photography kind of suggests otherwise.
Why?
How is it less feasible than gutting half of Ripon to get the railway through the town?
A chord at Poppleton would get Harrogate-Northern ECML direct trains at far lower cost than an alignment between Ripon and Northallerton, and would likely come out comparable in journey time terms.
Some one else with no local knowledge who thinks he knows better. You are the one clutching figures out of nowhere. It was fully costed in 2006 at £168m throughout assuming the land had been bought. Many of the larger landowners and those who had bought trackbed since closure were approached. Researching documents, it was found out that closure had not gone through Parliament and approved legally as it is still a public right of way that is now obstructed in many places. The trackbed should not have been sold off to individuals.Route protected? Look at the maps.
Figures clutched from the air and almost certainly way below reality. Harrogate to outskirts of Ripon not too bad but residents at Wormald Green and Littlethorpe wouldn't be too happy to see demolitions. Round the east side of Ripon from the roundabout junction with the B6265 the old trackbed is now the A61.
I'm intrigued to know how any reinstated railway gets past that and through the development at Ure Bank. A tunnel? Assuming a big diversion were possible to pick up the old trackbed north-east of Ripon, getting across the A6055 and A1(M) would be expensive, under or over at the Butcher House Bridge roundabout. There is a modern development across the trackbed at Pickhill.
The land purchase costs, the compensation, all the level crossings, the construction cost would bring it to far more than £250m. There'd be public inquiries. The benefits of the line beyond a terminal platform south of Ripon would be way below an economic return, and even that limited line would probably cost too much.
Get out those Ordnance Survey and aerial maps. It's not a practical starter. It's a scheme to put in a portfolio of 10 projects so 9 can be rejected and one agreed.
possible, but marton vale also has a lot of level crossings but gets a 60mph rating.I suspect that the abundance of level crossings is the main reason for the 50mph limit.
I am far poorer as a result of money being poured down the drain to prop up services that are maintained for political reasons even though capital expenditure would likely render them less of a money pit.
The Whitby Branch, or the Barton on Humber branch being obvious examples.
Or the Newquay branch.
None of these services are worth maintaining in their current joke of a form, but the BCR is then used as a reason why we shouldn't spend any capital to try and make any of those railways worthwhile.
The real terms interest rate on government debt is negative.
The government throws away huge amounts of public good every year by not borrowing additional money.
What happens to the BCR calculations if debt is assumed to be paid back over 60 years with a real interest rate of -1.6%?
It's a city with a population of 12000.
Should we build a railway to St David's because it is a cathedral city?
Resilience is worth almost nothing.
Aerial photography kind of suggests otherwise.
Why?
How is it less feasible than gutting half of Ripon to get the railway through the town?
A chord at Poppleton would get Harrogate-Northern ECML direct trains at far lower cost than an alignment between Ripon and Northallerton, and would likely come out comparable in journey time terms.
When BCRs for publically funded capital projects use the financial figures for actual gilts that would be issued to fund them in their calculations rather than arbitrary rates of return from another era plucked from a Treasury document, I will actually take them far more seriously.
If it's not a catastrophic failure, then was it really that big of a waste of money?
The waste of "tens of millions" becomes the waste of "millions" because some benefits were accrued.
Unless its a literal railway to nowhere, the amount of money actually wasted in any of these schemes is truly negligible.
Projecting what is the best possible use of money in advance is rather hard, verging on impossible.
A more realistic criteria is "not likely to be a horrendous waste".
It's like people decrying the Humber bridge as a white elephant.... I very much doubt the UK is worse off for having built it. It might not have been the best use of money but is certainly not a terrible use of money.
EDIT:
On the Skegness line..... there is a 22km dead straight section between Boston and Firsby, with a 50mph speed limit according to the sectional appendix.....
Even 60mph would significantly reduce journey times......
We seem to be taking a number of diversions in discussing the upgrading of curves, even to the reopening of long closed lines that would require attention to quite a few more curves.
Most of our lines are still using trackbed laid down in the Victorian age and not what we'd plan today. The two exceptions are the ECML Selby diversion, a massive step in the right direction dictated by coal mining that didn't last long, and HS1 pointing the way that HS2 will follow.
We need more lines to go more directly than most do. Resolving bottlenecks in tight urban locations can save a lot but costs a fortune. It's a fact that anything going beyond existing railway owned land is very likely to trigger expensive and time delaying public inquiries. It's also a fact that it takes many years before the idea moves to a fully costed plan, through to completion.
Ideally we would replan and build an entirely new national network. It would be cheaper in the long run than patching up our crumbling old infrastructure and reusing what's already decaying. It might even include a brand new line sweeping past Ripon, on a totally new alignment that would generate much local opposition.
Yeah. When are you going to give it a rest? Or maybe that's the silliest question of allNow, any more silly questions?
Good job two major projects have been recently completed then eh? With more in progress?But as others on here have said, to get the real improvements, you will need a few Market Harborough type projects, and taken together, that will be very expensive indeed.
Good job two major projects have been recently completed then eh? With more in progress?
The problem with this is that fundamentally there are almost no schemes that could be completed within the funding that has been spent on the Market Harborough and Derby projects that would have anything like the benefits. Most of the small projects have already been started anyway e.g. Kenilworth, Horden, Low Moor etc. These all count as new towns connected to the railway, but for some reason you don't seem to like them as much!It is. But it still adds up to a lot of money.
There should be some money set aside to connect towns to the railway that aren't currently connected.
How can costs go from £3.6 million per mile in 2006 to £300 million per mile just 13 years later and £14m/mile in 2015 only four years ago?
My pension is index linked but hasn't increased that much in the last 12 years. Should I complain to the Treasury?
The problem with this is that fundamentally there are almost no schemes that could be completed within the funding that has been spent on the Market Harborough and Derby projects that would have anything like the benefits. Most of the small projects have already been started anyway e.g. Kenilworth, Horden, Low Moor etc. These all count as new towns connected to the railway, but for some reason you don't seem to like them as much!
The benefits brought by progressive upgrades for the route for long-distance trains are much more obvious.
I have one: why re-instate to Northallerton instead of to Thirsk?Now, any more silly questions?
I have one: why re-instate to Northallerton instead of to Thirsk?
I am as critical of the CVF programme as anyone, but they certainly don't cost ten billion pounds each.You are just talking drivel. Get your facts straight before posting.
You are not much poorer. If it wasn't spent on railways it would be wasted on other things like roads( I can't drive since having a stroke but my taxes are used to prop up road users) defence (I am a pacifist but have to pay every time the RAF fire a £400,000 missile or a smart bomb) or the navy orders a £10 billion aircraft carrier (in this case two) and certainly contributed to Graylings billion pound cockups over the years.
That alone is enough to reinstate many railways.
As for the Whitby branch haven't you heard "All for one and one for all"? Don't be such a miserable s*d. Do you never visit Whitby?
So it's not actually about serving people and providing transport services, it's about some halcyon past that must be restored?St Davids has never been rail connected and hasn't suffered a Beeching closure. You don't miss what you have never had.
Yes, because it very rarely happens and the money spend on diversions can be spend on something useful. That is useful day in and day out. An dmost diversionary routes are so slow and roundabout to be almost useless.So you are a lover of bustitution rather than diversion if a line is closed? Tell that to passengers that have been bussed. Slow and nasty.
Werrington is being justified pretty much entirely on the benefits to freight operations.Why is so much being spent on Werrington Junction diveunder and why has so much been spent upgrading to Doncaster via Lincoln other than as a diversionary route to avoid bustitution and stop slow freight clogging up the ECML? Then why should it not be done here when York-Northallerton is closed completely in an emergency on average 7 times a year for the last 9 years. There is no route trains could take and hasn't been since 1967.
Aerial photography shows numerous houses and roads on the alignment.What is your point about aerial photos as it is not obvious to me?
You are very much over exaggerating the word "gutting" unnecessarily to aid your argument. How can Ripon be gutted if the line runs along the city boundary on the east side for half a mile and outside it for the remainder with no buildings demolished? Are you familiar with the area?
possible, but marton vale also has a lot of level crossings but gets a 60mph rating.
I would suspect the track grade is not great,(a lot of jointed track so probably very old),and also its proximity to the irrigation canal.
in between the two dead straight bits out of boston and then approaching wainfleet, you have firsby curve ,which is a 20mph limit-15mph on the inner radius.
I think boston-skeg through this section is about 30 minutes, but only around 15 miles long, giving an avaerage linespeed of 30mph.
Even if this cold be raised to 40mph it will gain quite a bit of time.
Such a project should be doable in the space of one winter timetable with whateve bus replacements/line closures necessary,so as to avoid the passenger flow in summer when it's really busy.
going back to the OP ;as someone who lives between Ripon and Harrogate the
idea of reinstatement of the line flies in the face of financial prudence.
The fact that nominally only those living in Ripon could gain advantage
to travel by train to Harrogate while the remaing villages that were on the original route
stand very little chance IF the line was rebuilt.
It makes better sense for Transdev to run the 36 bus as at present between centre of Ripon and centre of Harrogate on a
20 minute frequency (calling at Wormwold Green, Killinghall and Ripley) and continuing on to Leeds every 10 minutes.
The number 20 BUS runs Bishop Monkton, Burton Leonard and Littlethorpe between Ripon and Harrogate obviously it aint
very frequent BUT it is there.
There are plans floated much to the angst of varying groups for a road bypass for Killinghall and a road bypass for Harrogate in near proximity
of Nidd Bridge
There shouldn't be any realistic reason why WY Metro style wooden halts couldn't be built for those settlements, with a path to the nearest road.
Perhaps look at it another way - why does every new construction rail project in planning and development assume rates of £30m / mile + (noting that they have detailed plans, estimates and in some cases have priced tenders from construction companies, managed by teams of people who do this for a living with years of experience).... but you don’t?
There shouldn't be any realistic reason why WY Metro style wooden halts couldn't be built for those settlements, with a path to the nearest road.
Physically, no, but socio economically, yes. If the extended journey time from calling at various wayside halts (typically 2-3 minutes each) was such that the Ripon to Harrogate time was less competitive than alternatives, then it would destroy the case for the line as a whole.
Also the actual cost of stopping a train is not insignificant - fuel, brake wear, additional resource time. Given that some of these stations would generate passenger numbers in the realms of single figures a day at best, it’s a non-starter.
But then the whole thing is a non starter.
Given that £30m/mile buys you a high speed railway line on the continent.... it shows there is something seriously wrong with the British construction industry.
How can what amounts to a siding have that kind of cost? If so we might as well pack up and go home, the railway is finished.
Given that £30m/mile buys you a high speed railway line on the continent.... it shows there is something seriously wrong with the British construction industry.
How can what amounts to a siding have that kind of cost? If so we might as well pack up and go home, the railway is finished.
Indeed. The railway needs to find ways of controlling its construction costs.
1) there really isn’t much difference in cost between a high speed railway line and a conventional speed one. A high speed line basically has an extra few mm of ballast and underbridge beams that are slightly thicker; everything else is much the same.
Also note that the main proponents of high speed rail in Europe - France and Spain, have essentially built their lines almost entirely through open country. We live in a much more crowded isle.