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Could Heritage Railways ever go faster?

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nuneatonmark

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Would it be possible in the future for any Heritage Railways to increase the speed of their service above the 25/30 mph limit (which is it?) that is imposed now? As well as being possibly a better experience, might it not also open up new options for travel even if it was raised to 40 or 50 mph and only maybe for the more 'advanced' Heritage operations?
 
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Flying Phil

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The GCR is passed for higher speeds for testing purposes and the non passenger TPO mail drop demonstrations. However, it is a condition of the Light Railway Orders, that Heritage lines are authorised for use, that 25mph is the maximum speed. I suspect the conditions for higher passenger train speeds would make the additional costs far too high for economic operation.
 

pdeaves

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For most heritage railways, if they ran faster the 'experience' would be shorter and thus may be counter-productive to the tourist custom (which would perceive the ride as 'not as long').
 

alexl92

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There are two factors at play -
1. Many preserved lines are former branchlines and may not necessarily be suitable for upgrading. The GCR is the obvious exception but for example, I'm told that it would be hardly possible to upgrade the NYMR to faster running because of the route it takes anyway.

2. The big one is wear and tear of locomotives. At the moment most spend their lives running at 20-25mph. Double this (to 40-50mph) and the wear and tear will increase accordingly. This was fine for the 'big railway' in the steam era becuase engines were designed to run at these speeds and as a result facilities were available to maintain accordingly. It's different on a volunteer-run heritage line unfortunately.

In addition, the 25mph limit at the moment means that almost any loco can haul a train (even if it's not a full-length one) - e.g. you could substitute an industrial loco or class 08 diesel shunter on a 4/5 coach train instead of an express loco and it would be able to more or less keep the timetable. If ordinary running speed is 40+ mph, then you limit the locos you can use without changing the timetable.

The point above about running time is also important. You could effectively half the time a journey takes (allowing for acceleration it would probalby not be that simple) which some might perceive as worse value for money.
 

Glen M

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In addition, the 25mph limit at the moment means that almost any loco can haul a train (even if it's not a full-length one) - e.g. you could substitute an industrial loco or class 08 diesel shunter on a 4/5 coach train instead of an express loco and it would be able to more or less keep the timetable. If ordinary running speed is 40+ mph, then you limit the locos you can use without changing the timetable.

A class 08 isn't geared highly enough to even reach 25 mph let alone going up a steep bank with 5 on.
 

Journeyman

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Would it be possible in the future for any Heritage Railways to increase the speed of their service above the 25/30 mph limit (which is it?)

It's usually 25mph, but the Bo'ness and Kinneil Railway is 20mph. Some may be different, but only the GCR goes above 25mph to the best of my knowledge.

As well as being possibly a better experience, might it not also open up new options for travel even if it was raised to 40 or 50 mph and only maybe for the more 'advanced' Heritage operations?

It's a mixed bag. It's likely to cost a lot of money to do, and would be well down on the list of priorities of most railways. The only major reason for doing it in most cases would be if it was realistic to offer a regular public transport service. The slow speed of heritage railways is probably the main reason this has never taken off, although there have been plenty of proposals.

The GCR is passed for higher speeds for testing purposes and the non passenger TPO mail drop demonstrations. However, it is a condition of the Light Railway Orders, that Heritage lines are authorised for use, that 25mph is the maximum speed. I suspect the conditions for higher passenger train speeds would make the additional costs far too high for economic operation.

The speed limit isn't actually built into the legislation, according to Wikipedia's entry on the Light Railways Act, but has generally been an agreed level to allow cheaper maintenance standards.
 

73202

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Yes it is possible to have a higher line speed, but you would then have to have all the modern equipment fitted to do so such as AWS, TPWS, have central door locking, upgraded infrastucture, signalling for higher speeds, level crossing sightings etc. All the exemptions for running at 25MPH would no longer apply. Would it be worth the extra cost?
 

theblackwatch

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Yes it is possible to have a higher line speed, but you would then have to have all the modern equipment fitted to do so such as AWS, TPWS, have central door locking, upgraded infrastucture, signalling for higher speeds, level crossing sightings etc. All the exemptions for running at 25MPH would no longer apply. Would it be worth the extra cost?

Indeed, so extra cost means higher prices for a shorter tourist experience. Doesn't really stack up....
 

reddragon

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The only railways the could are the GCR & GWSR as both are former main lines and have good quality track.

Limited higher running speeds with certain stock / locos and on some track sections could work, but higher the speed, higher the ORR requirements & hence cost.
 

broadgage

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I believe that there is a case for a moderately higher speed, such as 40 MPH on some longer heritage railways.
Hopefully TPTB might allow 40 without needing ALL the same standards and equipment required for 125 MPH.

As an example, in the high summer season some West Somerset Railway trains are overcrowded with families starting from Bishops Lydeard and desiring a day on the beach at Minehead.
There could be a case for a "fast" train that Leaves Bishops Lydeard a few minutes before the all stations service. A preserved HST running at 40MPH would whisk families to the beach quickly in air conditioned comfort.
Those preferring something more traditional could use the following steam hauled all stations service restricted to 25 MPH

Hopefully TPTB might accept that an air braked, steel bodied coach with central door locking is no less safe at 40 MPH than is a steamer hauling vacuum braked stock at 25 MPH.
 

a_c_skinner

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The issue for preserved railways is that a journey of more than about 45 minutes deters (an hour each way plus time at the destination is the most a family wants) so a little acceleration seems attactive. However speed isn't just about the trains, it is also about crossings, sighting of trains and so on.
 

pdeaves

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Hopefully TPTB might accept that an air braked, steel bodied coach with central door locking is no less safe at 40 MPH than is a steamer hauling vacuum braked stock at 25 MPH.
until it meets a 25mph steam train running the opposite way! There are signalling considerations as well as crashworthiness.
 

Cowley

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I’ve often felt that a very small raise of speed limit on railways that meet certain criteria and actually want to do it might be achievable.
Just raising it by 5mph to 30mph would be my choice. 25mph feels a bit “Titfield Thunderbolt” in the 21st century. Rather than BR 9F on a rake of Mk1s running over professionally tamped, fully track circuited pristine railway line...
It might be more worth a look at than trying to radically change things that on the whole obviously work well.
I could see lines with steep banks taking the opportunity to take the beginning of a climb at an extra 5mph. And some lines like the West Somerset and Mid Hants had plenty of 50/60 mph sections up to the early 1970s in BR days.
 

DarloRich

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My question is: why?

It often seems this kind of question is generated by posters being too tight to pay for a mainline steam charter
 

Peter C

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As much as I would love for some of my local heritage lines to be able to fly along at 40 or 50mph, it would ruin the "heritage" experience because you would have to have so many safety systems. AWS. TPWS. Central Door Locking. Etc.
Also, am I right in thinking that heritage railways don't have to have yellow ends on their locos/units because of the Light Railway Order and the low speed limit? If a train on the GCR in normal service was to run along at 40mph, it would end up having horrid yellow ends. Steam engines just don't suit yellow ends for one thing!
Yes, the diesels on heritage railways often have yellow ends, and would suit this sort of higher speed running requirement, but steam engines would be restricted to 25mph if the heritage line didn't want to ruin their locos.

Also, I find that one of the reasons for why heritage railways are better than the modern network is (in my book) the slam doors. Now that HSTs have ended in my area, the only way to see and hear this old type of coaches is on a rare railtour or a heritage railway. There's nothing like being able to either poke your head out* or reach out of the window, push the handle down, and open the door like that. I prefer this method of opening the doors to pushing a button
And those posts I see online about people moaning about having to do work to open a door (good God, how dare they have to work?! :)) are a load of rubbish. :)

-Peter

*(at safe speeds only, so 25mph on a clear heritage line like the GWSR is perfect)


EDIT: If you want to feel as though you are going at much faster than 25mph on a heritage line, go to the Chinnor & Princes Risborough Railway when they are running a Bubble Car 121 DMU. That is quite the experience! Bouncing around all over the shop.
 

hexagon789

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Also, am I right in thinking that heritage railways don't have to have yellow ends on their locos/units because of the Light Railway Order and the low speed limit?

I think if they fitted modern headlights that wouldn't apply, might spoil the aesthetics sonewhat though.
 

Peter C

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I think if they fitted modern headlights that wouldn't apply, might spoil the aesthetics sonewhat though.
OK. Oh yes - the new TPE 801s don't have yellow ends because of their bright lights. And many other EMUs. But it would ruin the look of the engine. Even a diesel with that sort of thing would look odd.

-Peter
 

Peter C

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RH&DR is amazing when two trains pass on the double line part.
I've never been to the RH&DR but from videos of it I can tell that it must be quite the experience. I was quite interested when I went to the GCR and saw two trains passing each other - unique to that line on the heritage circuit!

-Peter
 

Cowley

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I've never been to the RH&DR but from videos of it I can tell that it must be quite the experience. I was quite interested when I went to the GCR and saw two trains passing each other - unique to that line on the heritage circuit!

-Peter
The RH&DR is great. 25mph is a scale 75mph for the locos and it feels like you’re really cracking on.
 

Peter C

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The RH&DR is great. 25mph is a scale 75mph for the locos and it feels like you’re really cracking on.
I bet it would feel as though you are going blooming fast, yes! Must go one day. My only narrow gauge railway experiences were years ago.

-Peter
 

hexagon789

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OK. Oh yes - the new TPE 801s don't have yellow ends because of their bright lights. And many other EMUs. But it would ruin the look of the engine. Even a diesel with that sort of thing would look odd.

-Peter

I'm not even sure it's required to be honest, plenty of steam locos do 75 of the mainline without yellow warning panels or AFAIAA modern high-intensity headlights.
 

Peter C

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I'm not even sure it's required to be honest, plenty of steam locos do 75 of the mainline without yellow warning panels or AFAIAA modern high-intensity headlights.
I'm fairly sure they use some sort of modern headlight. They don't use oil lamps for sure! :)

-Peter
 

hexagon789

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The RH&DR is great. 25mph is a scale 75mph for the locos and it feels like you’re really cracking on.

And they can go faster I believe. I'm sure that way back when it was Howey's railway he got something up to 60, I forget what though.
 

hexagon789

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I'm fairly sure they use some sort of modern headlight. They don't use oil lamps for sure! :)

-Peter

I must look at photos of Bittern on her 90mph runs, I don't recall seeing headlights but then I wasn't looking for them.
 
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