Northern Class 195: Construction/Introduction Updates

[Xenophon PCDGS]

^Wasn't the plan that all Cl 195 DMUs would only work the Connect services, with none available for legacy services or stoppers?

Would that only apply to the 3-car Class 195/1 units?

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Northern Connect, assuming that all is still intended to run as intended, will have separate branding, and a "distinctive service offering". The latter, from what I can find out, basically means seat reservations, aircon, wifi, and catering facilities at stations. Once these services launch, which will now likely be May 2020 at the earliest (although I guess a limited rollout in December this year might be achievable if literally everything goes to plan between now and then) they will all be operated by 195s or 331s with the exception of the Carlisle to Newcastle route which will be operated by 158s that are refurbished to the same standard as the new trains.

This isn't about operating new services, per se, but rather about how those services are operated, what trains are used, and how that is branded and offered to the customer. The vast majority of what will be Northern Connect is simply about upgrading and rebranding existing services.

My understanding was that there aren't enough 195s to operate the full tranche of Connect services other than the North-East ones. So several others such as Bradford Interchange to Nottingham will be shared between 195s and 158s.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I don't think they even need to be branded.

Indeed not. The requirement was to ensure any passenger using the service within certain hours has access to catering, which Northern have chosen to deliver not using a trolley but by way of station concessions being opened where not presently there.

 

[mrcaa]

Indeed not. The requirement was to ensure any passenger using the service within certain hours has access to catering, which Northern have chosen to deliver not using a trolley but by way of station concessions being opened where not presently there.

What a weird requirement. I can't see many passengers crying out for the overpriced catering you get in stations and on trains. Judging by how many people I've seen using the trolley service on TfW it seems most people would prefer to buy before or after they travel. Unless it's to do with guarenteeing an extra revenue stream for the TOC to make the franchise more viable.

 

[Bletchleyite]

What a weird requirement. I can't see many passengers crying out for the overpriced catering you get in stations and on trains

Can you advise where, near Ulverston station (i.e. within about 50 yards, as I might have heavy luggage), I can get a coffee and a sandwich?

No, I didn't think so. Quite a lot of Northern Connect stations are away from other options and don't have anything (or much) on the station itself.

 

[scrapy]

Northern Connect, assuming that all is still intended to run as intended, will have separate branding, and a "distinctive service offering". The latter, from what I can find out, basically means seat reservations, aircon, wifi, and catering facilities at stations. Once these services launch, which will now likely be May 2020 at the earliest (although I guess a limited rollout in December this year might be achievable if literally everything goes to plan between now and then) they will all be operated by 195s or 331s with the exception of the Carlisle to Newcastle route which will be operated by 158s that are refurbished to the same standard as the new trains.

This isn't about operating new services, per se, but rather about how those services are operated, what trains are used, and how that is branded and offered to the customer. The vast majority of what will be Northern Connect is simply about upgrading and rebranding existing services.

Seat reservations won't be available on Northern services until December 2020 if at all. There seems little appetite within Northern to bring in the Connect differential, there certainly wont be seperately branded units and I've a feeling it may have been quietly scrapped from the franchise agreement. The official line is that no decision has been made if/when it will be brought in, and the fact that the word 'if' has been used makes me think they no longer have to do it. I am hearing that there is likely to be 2*2 car 195/0s coupled as a diagram on Southport to Alderley Edges from December for example, along with 769s and 150s. So it seems more likely that 195s will appear more randomly than just the original Northern Connect routes, meaning there is likely to be some older stock on those routes as well.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Arriva really are just dross, aren't they? They had a good concept (and one that worked well before with NorthWest Express and the dedicated 156s) and have "done a First" and just got bored of it.

 

[Mathew S]

Seat reservations won't be available on Northern services until December 2020 if at all. There seems little appetite within Northern to bring in the Connect differential, there certainly wont be seperately branded units and I've a feeling it may have been quietly scrapped from the franchise agreement. The official line is that no decision has been made if/when it will be brought in, and the fact that the word 'if' has been used makes me think they no longer have to do it. I am hearing that there is likely to be 2*2 car 195/0s coupled as a diagram on Southport to Alderley Edges from December for example, along with 769s and 150s. So it seems more likely that 195s will appear more randomly than just the original Northern Connect routes, meaning there is likely to be some older stock on those routes as well.

Entirely plausible. My info is from a couple of months ago, so it's completely possible that things have changed even since then.
To be honest, once we get past Dec 2020 we're into, 'is there any point before the end of the franchise,' territory anyway.

 

[ainsworth74]

My understanding was that there aren't enough 195s to operate the full tranche of Connect services other than the North-East ones.

We're not expecting to see any 195s up here! Just 158s on the Connect services.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Having said what I said, EMU like performance on local stopping services is a good use of 195s...so maybe they are onto something. I can't think of a better case for the 2-cars (running as 2-car) than CLC locals.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

We're not expecting to see any 195s up here! Just 158s on the Connect services.

I know, but someone suggested that other diesel Connect services would be 100% 195, which I don't believe is the case.

 

[Mathew S]

I know, but someone suggested that other diesel Connect services would be 100% 195, which I don't believe is the case.

Assuming that Connect goes ahead in the form as was originally envisaged, all the diesel Connect services are planned to be 195 operated with the exception of the Tyne Valley. That's information I had, in person, from a senior manager within Northern, this year.

 

[a_c_skinner]

Connect is a millstone round Northern's neck. No more, no less.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Assuming that Connect goes ahead in the form as was originally envisaged, all the diesel Connect services are planned to be 195 operated with the exception of the Tyne Valley. That's information I had, in person, from a senior manager within Northern, this year.

Managers never lie, do they? The consensus on here at the time of the Franchise announcement was that there simply weren't going to be enough 195s to fully operate the non-NorthEast Connect services without 158s being needed for some services.

Though it sounds as if Connect isn't going ahead in the way it was promised, so it's all academic anyway.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Connect is a millstone round Northern's neck. No more, no less.

They didn't have to bid it in their franchise bid.

 

[mrcaa]

They didn't have to bid it in their franchise bid.

That's what I was wondering. If it wasn't in the actual franchise requirements I seriously doubt it will be happening. They'll just deliver the bare minimum to avoid any penalties.

 

[Bletchleyite]

That's what I was wondering. If it wasn't in the actual franchise requirements I seriously doubt it will be happening. They'll just deliver the bare minimum to avoid any penalties.

If they bid it it will be.

 

[Bertie the bus]

That's what I was wondering. If it wasn't in the actual franchise requirements I seriously doubt it will be happening. They'll just deliver the bare minimum to avoid any penalties.

Not being in the ITT (invitation to tender) doesn't mean it isn't a commitment in the franchise agreement. Though, obviously, I agree they will of course do the bare minimum - if we're lucky!

 

[jonesy3001]

How many 195s have northern got now, in service or for training/mileage accumulation?

 

[samuelmorris]

Re: the door issue - were the doors closing on people and not opening if obstacles were detected? presumably that's a bug, as when closing just to maintain interior temperature, if any hint of an obstruction is found, the doors should open again without even having to touch what the obstruction is. It's only when closing for departure that they should attempt to close on any obstruction.

The 8.16 from Lime Street to Manchester Airport is now operated by a 195 and it's always crowded. I'm sure they used to use 2 x Sprinters or 1 x Sprinter + 1 x Pacer coupled together on this route. Now it's down to 3 x carriages on a 195!

A 150+142 coupled together is no longer than a 3-car 195, and indeed has more wasted space in cabs and gangways, so there's only a potential capacity loss vs. 2x 150s, and in practice, only really against 2x156s+.

 

[Bornin1980s]

Have all 195 services so far been limited stop, Connect like services, or have any run on stoppers?
And have any run diagrams normally run by pacers?

 

[Mathew S]

Managers never lie, do they? The consensus on here at the time of the Franchise announcement was that there simply weren't going to be enough 195s to fully operate the non-NorthEast Connect services without 158s being needed for some services.

Though it sounds as if Connect isn't going ahead in the way it was promised, so it's all academic anyway.

I'm not sure where the idea there wouldn't be enough 195s comes from, but some simple maths would appear to suggest that it is untrue.

Leaving out the Tyne Valley, where 158s were the plan for the Connect services anyway, ten routes were included in the original Connect proposal (listed below). Assuming each of these were to receive a 1tph 'Connect' service, an extremely crude estimate* of the number of units required is shown in brackets next to each one:

• Barrow/Windermere - Man Airport (7)
  
• Blackpool - Man Airport (5)
  
• Blackpool - York (7)
  
• Liverpool - Leeds (5)
  
• Liverpool - Man Airport (4)
  
• Chester - Leeds (7)
  
• Bradford - Airport (5)
  
• Leeds - Lincoln (6)
  
• Sheffield - Hull (4)
  
• Leeds - Nottingham (5)

That only totals 55 units, less than the 58 195s ordered, and that's before 331s are included. In other words, plenty of 195s.

Whether Connect actually happens or not, well, that's another issue, and I bow to @scrapy with his superior knowledge of information doing the rounds within Northern on that one. But the 195/331 + 158s on the Tyne Valley is 100% what the plan for Connect was.

* Worked out purely on the basis of time taken for one journey (e.g. Blackpool - Man Air and back), doubled to get a return journey, and adding one to account for the vagaries of timetabling. A very crude estimate, but accurate enough for these purposes given all the other variables involved.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

A trip today on a 195 north from Wigan to Lancaster, and a 350 back to Manchester, convinced me that the 350 wins for general ambiance and a relaxed ride.
The trains are very similar in feel and environment, and the 195 is fine in most respects.
But the bumpy ride and clunking sounds from down below, particularly near stations and over S&C, detract from the quality experience of the 195 compared to the 350.
I hope the CAF 397s have a better ride than the 195s, or TPE will not want to part with their 350s when the time comes.
I couldn't swear to it, but I thought I spied a 195 in the sidings west of Wigan Wallgate.

 

[Mathew S]

I couldn't swear to it, but I thought I spied a 195 in the sidings west of Wigan Wallgate.

Been there a couple of weeks. I saw it last week, Wednesday I think, pulling into - and then out of - the bay at Wallgate while I was parking my car.

 

[scrapy]

I'm not sure where the idea there wouldn't be enough 195s comes from, but some simple maths would appear to suggest that it is untrue.

Leaving out the Tyne Valley, where 158s were the plan for the Connect services anyway, ten routes were included in the original Connect proposal (listed below). Assuming each of these were to receive a 1tph 'Connect' service, an extremely crude estimate* of the number of units required is shown in brackets next to each one:

• Barrow/Windermere - Man Airport (7)
  
• Blackpool - Man Airport (5)
  
• Blackpool - York (7)
  
• Liverpool - Leeds (5)
  
• Liverpool - Man Airport (4)
  
• Chester - Leeds (7)
  
• Bradford - Airport (5)
  
• Leeds - Lincoln (6)
  
• Sheffield - Hull (4)
  
• Leeds - Nottingham (5)

That only totals 55 units, less than the 58 195s ordered, and that's before 331s are included. In other words, plenty of 195s.

Whether Connect actually happens or not, well, that's another issue, and I bow to @scrapy with his superior knowledge of information doing the rounds within Northern on that one. But the 195/331 + 158s on the Tyne Valley is 100% what the plan for Connect was.

* Worked out purely on the basis of time taken for one journey (e.g. Blackpool - Man Air and back), doubled to get a return journey, and adding one to account for the vagaries of timetabling. A very crude estimate, but accurate enough for these purposes given all the other variables involved.

The numbers you give look reasonably accurate although the Blackpool - Man Airport will definitely not be 195s so can be discounted, leaving around 8 spare units and I am not sure whether the Sheffield to Hull route was originally planned to be 2tph 195 operated. Even still 8 spare units on a fleet size of 58 is what would often be expected to be out of service for scheduled maintenance, failures etc. I think it's also dawning on Arriva that the 2 car units would not be suitable to be run on their own on almost all of those routes (which was the original plan), even the 3 car units aren't really long enough as is already in evidence at peak times on the 2 routes they are now working. So once units are doubled up, there simply aren't enough 195s to go round.

There are 2 195s at Wigan Wallgate, a 2 car and a 3 car, solely being used for training.

 

[HSTEd]

Perhaps they should order enough additional vehicles to make every unit up to 3 car.

These new trains are generating some positive publicity and the SoS for Transport could parley that into political favour by announcing new trains will be ordered once Boris becomes PM.

 

[a_c_skinner]

It wouldn't be enough.

 

[samuelmorris]

According to this article the possibility of additional stock is being explored. I wonder exactly how far that will go. I would like to see plans underway by the end of the franchise that not only deal with the capacity shortfall and replace the pacers, but cater for withdrawal of the 150s as well.

 

[Andyh82]

Perhaps they should order enough additional vehicles to make every unit up to 3 car.

These new trains are generating some positive publicity and the SoS for Transport could parley that into political favour by announcing new trains will be ordered once Boris becomes PM.

That should definitely happen, it was a joke that 2 cars were ordered in the first place.

 

[HSTEd]

That should definitely happen, it was a joke that 2 cars were ordered in the first place.

2-cars wouldn't have been too bad if they had been ordered with gangways.

But as it is they are indeed near useless.