Kings Cross to Ely/Kings Lynn stock and TOC options

[387star]

Had the pleasure of a Great Northern 387 to Ely yesterday from the Cross

Impressive fast run particularly on the way back where we didn't stop once for 45 odd minutes from Cambridge to Kings Cross!

The 387s are not intrinsically bad trains but fall short of the premium product this roite requires

If LNER take over as has been predicted will we see 800s on this route?

 

[elliotjelliot]

Had the pleasure of a Great Northern 387 to Ely yesterday from the Cross

Impressive fast run particularly on the way back where we didn't stop once for 45 odd minutes from Cambridge to Kings Cross!

The 387s are not intrinsically bad trains but fall short of the premium product this roite requires

If LNER take over as has been predicted will we see 800s on this route?

Potentially, however platform length issues north of Cambridge mean that Class 800s, even the 5 coach sets, are too long. If I remember correctly, funding has been given to lengthening platforms to accommodate 8 coach trains. This however, would still be too short as I'm assuming such plans spec the platforms based on the length of an 8 coach 387.

Furthermore, despite the considerable distance between Kings Lynn and Kings Cross, it is still a commuter line as opposed to a long distance service and 387's can better handle hop-on hop-off passengers.

I do agree though that this service does require a premium product. I can imagine the most feasible option is to refurbish the 387's to have a more long-distance feel, whilst retaining the flexibility to handle commuters who only make brief journeys. The class 379s with Greater Anglia are a good example I think of how electrostars can be given a more premium feel, especially in first class.

 

[Tobbes]

Potentially, however platform length issues north of Cambridge mean that Class 800s, even the 5 coach sets, are too long. If I remember correctly, funding has been given to lengthening platforms to accommodate 8 coach trains. This however, would still be too short as I'm assuming such plans spec the platforms based on the length of an 8 coach 387.

Furthermore, despite the considerable distance between Kings Lynn and Kings Cross, it is still a commuter line as opposed to a long distance service and 387's can better handle hop-on hop-off passengers.

I do agree though that this service does require a premium product. I can imagine the most feasible option is to refurbish the 387's to have a more long-distance feel, whilst retaining the flexibility to handle commuters who only make brief journeys. The class 379s with Greater Anglia are a good example I think of how electrostars can be given a more premium feel, especially in first class.

2 x 5 coach 800 splitting at Cambs/Cambs North/Ely with a 5 coach unit going on to Lynn could provide an "Intercity" experience, certainly - and as 125mph units could be (marginally) quicker south of Hitchin. The Cambs-KX non-stop service at least benefits from no long dwell stops enroute, so the losses from fewer doors should be considerably less. (And 800s on EWR would be nice, too.....)

 

[elliotjelliot]

2 x 5 coach 800 splitting at Cambs/Cambs North/Ely with a 5 coach unit going on to Lynn could provide an "Intercity" experience, certainly - and as 125mph units could be (marginally) quicker south of Hitchin. The Cambs-KX non-stop service at least benefits from no long dwell stops enroute, so the losses from fewer doors should be considerably less. (And 800s on EWR would be nice, too.....)

I find myself in a difficult situation where I totally agree with you, but also realise that this option isn't feasible with today's way of running the railway. Everything is about capacity, not high-quality. This option rightly increases quality and reduces journey times but it also reduces capacity, both between London and Cambridge and after Cambridge post-division. 4 coach 387's provide 220ish seats (incl 1st) beyond Cambridge. A 5 coach 800/801 would only take that figure to around 300, whereas an 8 coach 387 could provide around 440 seats north of Cambridge. I have seen 4 coach trains arriving from Kings Lynn into Cambridge, extremely overcrowded and I doubt that a 5 coach Azuma would eradicate the issue.

 

[Tobbes]

I find myself in a difficult situation where I totally agree with you, but also realise that this option isn't feasible with today's way of running the railway. Everything is about capacity, not high-quality. This option rightly increases quality and reduces journey times but it also reduces capacity, both between London and Cambridge and after Cambridge post-division. 4 coach 387's provide 220ish seats (incl 1st) beyond Cambridge. A 5 coach 800/801 would only take that figure to around 300, whereas an 8 coach 387 could provide around 440 seats north of Cambridge. I have seen 4 coach trains arriving from Kings Lynn into Cambridge, extremely overcrowded and I doubt that a 5 coach Azuma would eradicate the issue.

Thanks for the comprehensive reply. I'd obviously be more than happy to run 9/10 car 800s all the way to Lynn, but the platforms will need extending, and I wonder if the wiring is up to it? Clearly, I'd see the "correct" answer as redouble Ely to Lynn (after sorting out Ely North), properly electrify the line, and then run full length 800s all stops to Cambridge and then fast to KX..... we can but hope (my dreams of Lynn-Swaffham-Dereham-Wymondham-Norwich will have to wait even longer than that!)

 

[4-SUB 4732]

It’s an easy one given how nominal the pathing is north of Potters Bar in terms of sectional running times: 379s to GN.

 

[bramling]

Had the pleasure of a Great Northern 387 to Ely yesterday from the Cross

Impressive fast run particularly on the way back where we didn't stop once for 45 odd minutes from Cambridge to Kings Cross!

The 387s are not intrinsically bad trains but fall short of the premium product this roite requires

If LNER take over as has been predicted will we see 800s on this route?

What is so special about this route that it feels it deserves a “premium product”? And what does an IEP offer over over a 387 apart from a sexy front?

Apart from a few niggles, the 387 isn’t a bad train - with the big exception of the hard seats, not that an IEP is much better in that respect.

 

[elliotjelliot]

Thanks for the comprehensive reply. I'd obviously be more than happy to run 9/10 car 800s all the way to Lynn, but the platforms will need extending, and I wonder if the wiring is up to it? Clearly, I'd see the "correct" answer as redouble Ely to Lynn (after sorting out Ely North), properly electrify the line, and then run full length 800s all stops to Cambridge and then fast to KX..... we can but hope (my dreams of Lynn-Swaffham-Dereham-Wymondham-Norwich will have to wait even longer than that!)

Not a problem! Redoubling would probably help, or at least some additional passing loops so the KGX-ELY service could be extended to give 2tph to Kings Lynn. Then you wouldn't necessarily need longer platforms as you increase capacity by increasing frequency. Though I'm sure it's much cheaper to extend platforms then do that!

 

[elliotjelliot]

What is so special about this route that it feels it deserves a “premium product”? And what does an IEP offer over over a 387 apart from a sexy front?

Apart from a few niggles, the 387 isn’t a bad train - with the big exception of the hard seats, not that an IEP is much better in that respect.

I agree the 387 isnt bad. I'm assuming premium product means a slightly better first class (especially if we are talking 387s), maybe a catering trolley and maybe seat reservations. The route does feel longer than a commuter route and for those making the 1hr50min journey I'm sure they would appreciate a little more comfort. Just think Newark, Nottingham and Birmingham are all less than two hours from London and they have 'intercity' levels of service. Besides if the service level was increased, Cambridge passengers would also benefit, not just Kings Lynn.

 

[Terry Tait]

This route used to be an intercity route back in the day, long trains with decent first and standard class and sometimes full restaurant facilities, although it did start from Liverpool Street at the time.

 

[ac6000cw]

Just think Newark, Nottingham and Birmingham are all less than two hours from London and they have 'intercity' levels of service.

Kings Lynn is a large town (around 50k population) at the end of branch line from Ely, basically. Littleport and Downham Market add about 10k each, and Ely about 20k. Newark only has 'intercity' services because it happens to be on the ECML, Birmingham is a vastly larger conurbation, and Nottingham has close to 10 times the population. Even Peterborough and Norwich are 3-4 times larger than Kings Lynn.

From Cambridge southwards, the passenger flows are large enough to need high-capacity 12-car trains anyway on some of the non-stop KGX trains.

I agree with Bramling on this one.

 

[elliotjelliot]

Kings Lynn is a large town (around 50k population) at the end of branch line from Ely, basically. Littleport and Downham Market add about 10k each, and Ely about 20k. Newark only has 'intercity' services because it happens to be on the ECML, Birmingham is a vastly larger conurbation, and Nottingham has close to 10 times the population. Even Peterborough and Norwich are 3-4 times larger than Kings Lynn.

From Cambridge southwards, the passenger flows are large enough to need high-capacity 12-car trains anyway on some of the non-stop KGX trains.

I agree with Bramling on this one.

Thanks for your reply. I concede that my examples were not very good haha. Though I would like to direct you to my other posts on this feed where I have said the 387 or 379 electrostars are perfectly acceptable for this service. I am merely suggesting that for a longer distance service, some areas of the existing service could be improved.

 

[Ianno87]

387s are spot on for the Cambridge/Ely/Kings Lynn fasts. Loads of capacity, good tables, seat back tables you can use a laptop on, decent Wifi, good acceleration and potential for 110mph running (not that it would buy very much - nor would 125).

The dwell times are important too for the peak stops at Letchworth, Royston etc. Heck, Cambridge North is getting a busy old station too these days.

The route simply doesn't need Intercity-ing for the sake of it.

 

[Ianno87]

This route used to be an intercity route back in the day, long trains with decent first and standard class and sometimes full restaurant facilities, although it did start from Liverpool Street at the time.

And nowhere near as busy "back in the day". The growth of the Cambridge market has been on another planet compared to most places.

 

[bspahh]

Platform extensions at Waterbeach and Littleport are due to start in October and to be done by the summer in 2020. Apparently the power supply has already been upgraded (although perhaps not enough to also support the 755 bimodes to Norwich) so 8 car trains North of Ely shouldn't be too far off.

I don't mind the 387s. My biggest grumble with them is that they are prone to lurch violently on track South of Ely, which is pretty smooth on most other trains.

 

[Terry Tait]

A good reason for long trains then.

 

[ac6000cw]

so 8 car trains North of Ely shouldn't be too far off.

Some 8-car trains already run to/from Kings Lynn in the peaks.

As for frequency of service north of Ely, Mon-Fri there are 2-3 tph between 04:43 and 09:44 to London. Evening peak from London is similar. It's only an off-peak 2 tph service which is 'missing'.

 

[class26]

One thing not taken into account regarding 800`s is the LNER doesn`t have enough and is currently looking at acquiring more, even without Kings Lynn / Cambridge.

 

[bspahh]

Some 8-car trains already run to/from Kings Lynn in the peaks.

As for frequency of service north of Ely, Mon-Fri there are 2-3 tph between 04:43 and 09:44 to London. Evening peak from London is similar. It's only an off-peak 2 tph service which is 'missing'.

There are some 8-car trains to Kings Lynn, but they don't stop at Waterbeach or Littleport.

From Ely, the problems with the schedule are:
1. there is often a long stop (6-9 minutes) at Cambridge before continuing to Kings Cross
2. trains arrive in Cambridge from the London at 00:35, 00:41 and 00:51, but none of them carry on to Ely and beyond. It means the last train to Ely leaves London at 23:09
3. the first train from Ely to Cambridge on a Sunday morning arrives at 09:16

 

[ac6000cw]

but they don't stop at Waterbeach or Littleport

Yes, I know (I use Waterbeach sometimes) - that's why I said 'Kings Lynn' specifically

 

[MarkyT]

Note 125mph is only available north of Welwyn North tunnel, with typically 100/115 mph on the fasts south thereof. So, the 110mph capability of the 387s makes little difference and I believe the electrostars have better acceleration especially in the lower speed ranges, so can probably match 80x electric peformance overall on this section. This will allow the same mix of classes to run in very similar sectional timings on the GWML.

 

[AM9]

This route used to be an intercity route back in the day, long trains with decent first and standard class and sometimes full restaurant facilities, although it did start from Liverpool Street at the time.

But the journey was much longer then and there were many other lines that had 'inter-city' labels that are now not much more than regional routes.

 

[Tobbes]

I do wonder about wider perceptions: Cambridge is a key national economic hub, and it feels like it merits Intercity status as a result (after all, Oxford has HSTs/IETs as well as 165s) and perceptions matter. 80Xs on KX-Cambs South-Cambs North-all stations to Lynn to replace the existing fasts, with the semi-fast and stopping services using 387s feels like an appropriate mix - and, at the risk of opening another can of worms, I'd put 80Xs on the Cambs-Oxford fasts when EWR is complete.

 

[AM9]

I do wonder about wider perceptions: Cambridge is a key national economic hub, and it feels like it merits Intercity status as a result (after all, Oxford has HSTs/IETs as well as 165s) and perceptions matter. 80Xs on KX-Cambs South-Cambs North-all stations to Lynn to replace the existing fasts, with the semi-fast and stopping services using 387s feels like an appropriate mix - and, at the risk of opening another can of worms, I'd put 80Xs on the Cambs-Oxford fasts when EWR is complete.

Why 80xs? They are 125 mph (or 140mph if necessary) trains so where would they be able to reach anywhere near that speed? They would take 20 minutes to get to Stevenage, then slow down for Hitchin, followed by another 30 minutes to Cambridge (which at 26 miles is less than 60mph). What a waste that would be when an over 20 year old outer suburban commuter EMU could do the same journey in exactly the same time. This obsession with Inter-city status in some towns/cities is ridiculous. Maybe those settlements calling for it should pay the difference in cost as they think it will benefit them so much. Even Her Majesty goes to Sandringham on a class 365 so why is it not good enough for the oh-so important visitors to Cambridge?

 

[Ianno87]

Note 125mph is only available north of Welwyn North tunnel, with typically 100/115 mph on the fasts south thereof. So, the 110mph capability of the 387s makes little difference and I believe the electrostars have better acceleration especially in the lower speed ranges, so can probably match 80x electric peformance overall on this section. This will allow the same mix of classes to run in very similar sectional timings on the GWML.

The Up is only 100 south of Potters Bar.

I estimated that 110 vs 100 buys about 60 seconds on the Down, 45 seconds on the Up. Not exactly earth-shattering.

I do wonder about wider perceptions: Cambridge is a key national economic hub, and it feels like it merits Intercity status as a result (after all, Oxford has HSTs/IETs as well as 165s) and perceptions matter. 80Xs on KX-Cambs South-Cambs North-all stations to Lynn to replace the existing fasts, with the semi-fast and stopping services using 387s feels like an appropriate mix - and, at the risk of opening another can of worms, I'd put 80Xs on the Cambs-Oxford fasts when EWR is complete.

Nobody in Cambridge cares less about not having "Intercity" status. And it certainly isn't hampering the city's stupendous economic growth. High capacity fast trains to London are key...which we have.

A solution looking for a problem.

 

[30907]

This route used to be an intercity route back in the day, long trains with decent first and standard class and sometimes full restaurant facilities, although it did start from Liverpool Street at the time.

Cambridge always was the poor relation - on the GE compared with Norwich (37 vs 47), and the GN where the "expresses" were class 31 jobs when I knew them in the mid 70s (and compared to Oxford too, and I have studied at both places!). The restaurant cars were griddle cars by then too, when even cross country had "full" service.

Incidentally, ISTR that at one stage the IEP plan included Cambridge.

 

[Ianno87]

Cambridge always was the poor relation - on the GE compared with Norwich (37 vs 47), and the GN where the "expresses" were class 31 jobs when I knew them in the mid 70s (and compared to Oxford too, and I have studied at both places!). The restaurant cars were griddle cars by then too, when even cross country had "full" service.

Incidentally, ISTR that at one stage the IEP plan included Cambridge.

A non-stop run Kings Cross to Cambridge averages typically 73mph or so (or better). Every half hour most of the day. Plus two semi-fasts per hour through to Gatwick and Brighton. Plus an hourly Liverpool Street semi-fast.

Even a Norwich in 90 path only makes a 76mph average. A couple of times a day only.

Cambridge *really* isn't the poor relation in service provision terms.

 

[adamedwards]

If King Lynn needs an inter city service, then surely there should be a Pendolino service to Northampton? In both cases the EMU service is just fine.

 

[30907]

A non-stop run Kings Cross to Cambridge averages typically 73mph or so (or better). Every half hour most of the day. Plus two semi-fasts per hour through to Gatwick and Brighton. Plus an hourly Liverpool Street semi-fast.

Even a Norwich in 90 path only makes a 76mph average. A couple of times a day only.

Cambridge *really* isn't the poor relation in service provision terms.

I was referring to rolling stock and catering when it was an Intercity route, not to service frequency, sorry if that wasn't clear.

 

[Ianno87]

I was referring to rolling stock and catering when it was an Intercity route, not to service frequency, sorry if that wasn't clear.

Given that it's a 48 minute journey and both Cambridge and King's Cross have plentiful places to purchase coffee and food, there is simply no need for on train catering.

And the current trains are fast and high capacity. That is all that is needed.