'Everyone knows' (but perhaps those here know a bit better) that commuting by train is expensive in the UK when compared with France. Can anyone give some rough comparisons? All European countries considered. Any quality of journey info would be handy too. eg. One ticket for train-tram-bus with all routes connecting -- or not.
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Commuting costs in main cities
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farci
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Seat 61 has a good article comparing fares in different markets
https://www.seat61.com/uk-europe-train-fares-comparison.html
https://www.seat61.com/uk-europe-train-fares-comparison.html
It sounds like we are talking about regular shorter distance trips rather than infrequent long distance trips which is what the Seat 61 article was mostly about, although he does briefly say
coppercapped
Established Member
Employers in Paris and the Ile de France have to pay an extra tax for 'Transport en commun'. When I lived there it was set, IIRC, at about 3% of the total wages and salary bill - and my employer then deducted my share from my salary. So, not quite as cheap as appears at first glance.
Presumably this is also paid by people who drive to work?
coppercapped
Established Member
Yes, it's effectively a head tax on employment.
Some countries have tickets giving unlimited rail travel in the whole country for a year. For example,
4,152 EUR in the Netherlands (4,848 including all public transport)
3,184 EUR in Belgium
4,395 EUR in Germany
3,860 CHF in Switzerland (includes all public transport)
For comparison, an annual season ticket between London and Basingstoke is £4,564 (5,153 EUR or 5,592 CHF).
4,152 EUR in the Netherlands (4,848 including all public transport)
3,184 EUR in Belgium
4,395 EUR in Germany
3,860 CHF in Switzerland (includes all public transport)
For comparison, an annual season ticket between London and Basingstoke is £4,564 (5,153 EUR or 5,592 CHF).
farci
Member
As a political decision Strathclyde PT already offers lower cost/mile for trains in their area than nationally. This applies to everyone and is even cheaper with the Scotland-wide Saltire Card.
Much discussion to strengthen SPT powers again and provide an operation where routes and timetables for all public transport are decided strategically. Operators and communities would bid to run bus services in an area where only 49% have cars. Rail/subway services would be integrated.
The Get Glasgow Moving campaign believes in renationalisation to reduce fares
Much discussion to strengthen SPT powers again and provide an operation where routes and timetables for all public transport are decided strategically. Operators and communities would bid to run bus services in an area where only 49% have cars. Rail/subway services would be integrated.
The Get Glasgow Moving campaign believes in renationalisation to reduce fares
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duesselmartin
Established Member
The major cities of the Ruhr cost around 70€ a month within the city ( not within the Ruhr area).
Single tickets for each city is around 2.80€.
Single tickets for each city is around 2.80€.
SHD
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The Versement transport is a payroll tax (between 1.5 and 2.85% of the super-gross salary in Île-de-France, generally less in other parts of France) and appeared (*) on the employee payslips as an "employer contribution", not as an "employee contribution" (which would be deducted from the gross salary). It is only due by employers with a headcount of 11 employees or more.
You forgot to mention that all French employees are entitled to an extra reimbursement of 50% their monthly public transportation costs.
In essence:
- I pay (more or less) €70/month for my Navigo card - this is the yearly direct debit option, slightly cheaper than the standalone monthly pass
- My employer adds an extra €35 to my payslip as a direct subsidy in my pocket. This subsidy is not subject to taxation or contributions.
- My employer pays an extra tax of 2.85% of my gross salary to subsidise the Parisian region transportation authority. It is quite an exercise in intellectual gymnastics from your part to consider that tax as something that I pay directly, especially as it is not deducted from my gross salary. Rather, it forms part of what we call in France le salaire superbrut (the super-gross salary, i.e. the total labour cost for one's employer). Agricultural workers and the self-employed who reside in Île-de-France do not pay the versement transport but pay the same upfront cost of €75.20 for a monthly pass.
- Students, the elderly, and other categories of users have specific discounts.
(*) It does not appear anymore as a separate line
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Divided by two as half of that is paid for by your school or your employer.
The BahnCard 100 for Germany (4,395 Euros) also includes public transport within all larger cities (the ones where a "City-ticket" is valid).
In Belgium it's very unusual for commuters to pay for their rail travel. The employer pays for 80% of your rail season season ticket and the government often picks up the last 20%.
In Germany you can buy a Bahncard 100 for 4,395 euros (about £3,900) a year which gives you unlimited, all-lines access on all DB trains across the whole country - whether high-speed, local, etc. That's the equivalent of a relatively modest season ticket in the UK.
The equivalent Swiss all-lines annual season ticket is about £3,156 in standard class.
In the Netherlands, an all-lines season ticket for the whole country will cost you 347 euros a month to be valid at all times, 106 euros a month to be valid off peak and weekends, and just 32 euros a month to be valid on the weekends.
Commuting costs in the UK are significantly higher than other most other comparable countries. A Canterbury to London travelcard zones 1-6 ticket will set you back £7,416.00 for a year. There's just no comparison.
In Germany you can buy a Bahncard 100 for 4,395 euros (about £3,900) a year which gives you unlimited, all-lines access on all DB trains across the whole country - whether high-speed, local, etc. That's the equivalent of a relatively modest season ticket in the UK.
The equivalent Swiss all-lines annual season ticket is about £3,156 in standard class.
In the Netherlands, an all-lines season ticket for the whole country will cost you 347 euros a month to be valid at all times, 106 euros a month to be valid off peak and weekends, and just 32 euros a month to be valid on the weekends.
Commuting costs in the UK are significantly higher than other most other comparable countries. A Canterbury to London travelcard zones 1-6 ticket will set you back £7,416.00 for a year. There's just no comparison.
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coppercapped
Established Member
Thank you for the update. I did write 'when I lived there' and that was admittedly some years ago and things have obviously changed, but my salary slip did include a line item for the transport tax deduction. We also received what was essentially a 'weighting' allowance to cover the higher costs of living in or near a large city.
farci
Member
I think the original question was about daily commuting costs not unlimited travel nationally!On current exchange rates. In a few months those fares will look rather expensive!
Same applies!
Struner
Member
Anyway, the figures quoted are in the local currency. How that works out in other currencies, now & in the future, we’ll see...
paddington
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I think only the German example is really comparable to the UK, as BE, NL and CH are small countries (although CH is a lot more mountainous, but also rich).
Country size isn't that relevant for commuting as commuting distance won't be that different. Shorter commutes are preferred and not that many people will commute for more than 2 hours each way even if it is affordable. Regardless of that, long train journeys are still possible in those "small" countries. Geneva to Zurich and Maastricht to Amsterdam are both further than London to Birmingham. Most people wouldn't want to do any of those trips on a daily basis.
duesselmartin
Established Member
In the end you can only compare similar sized cities with a similar commuter belt or the cost of a similar distant commute.
dutchflyer
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In many west-eur countries commuter rail travel is heavily subsidised to the extent that a weekly cost barely more as normal day-return. But not that many countries still have weeklies as about any normal salary is by the month.
Also, quite other as in UK buses/trams are not cheaper as trains-rather the reverse applies.
It seems the more southern, the more the discount is- FR, ES, IT especially.
Another fairly recent green wave is the demand for 1€/day seasons, thus 365/year. Wien=Vienna has started, in Praha/Prague its even just 10 Czk/day and its mostly prevalent in AT and DE. But these are usualy limited to the exact areas of the cities concerned, which as such can be quite large not just the urban area.
Interestingly in US cities that do have commuter-rail there the fares also tend to be very heavily subsidised and hence season-cost fairly low.
So after all, ''rip-off Britain'' (in prices) certainly has some ground to it, as I can again testify having just returned from a LONdon trip a few days ago. Many local prices in GBP (which as such is around € 1,11 now) are higher as in € here or around.
Also, quite other as in UK buses/trams are not cheaper as trains-rather the reverse applies.
It seems the more southern, the more the discount is- FR, ES, IT especially.
Another fairly recent green wave is the demand for 1€/day seasons, thus 365/year. Wien=Vienna has started, in Praha/Prague its even just 10 Czk/day and its mostly prevalent in AT and DE. But these are usualy limited to the exact areas of the cities concerned, which as such can be quite large not just the urban area.
Interestingly in US cities that do have commuter-rail there the fares also tend to be very heavily subsidised and hence season-cost fairly low.
So after all, ''rip-off Britain'' (in prices) certainly has some ground to it, as I can again testify having just returned from a LONdon trip a few days ago. Many local prices in GBP (which as such is around € 1,11 now) are higher as in € here or around.
The main issue is whether or not the cost puts people off the train and means that people drive to work instead.
That just isn’t going to happen to any great extent in London, which must be most of the commuting.
There is little alternative to the train for travel to central London, meaning that trains have a captive market, but in outer London and most of the rest of the country, car travel is mostly viable. There are definitely people who would like to use the train but don't because of the cost.
There is, actually, quite a lot of commuting by car in London. Very little into the central activity zone (City, West End) or Canary Wharf, but much more within and between the boroughs outside centrally London, particularly outer London. Heathrow for example.
I just get concerned that a lot of the complaining about cost is an expectation that someone else should pay (some seem to forget that ‘the state’ actually means taxpayers not some magical money tree), and i don’t think there is enough debate about what the railways are for and what should and shouldn’t be subsidised (ie well paid commuters expecting others to subsidise their improved lifestyle from living further out, which raises house prices for those others).
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