WCML new trains: suggestions, ideas and predictions

[dosxuk]

Before the previous (abandoned) WCML franchise award, many people were saying that there was no way any more 390's could be built, they didn't meet standards, all the jigs had been destroyed and it would be too expensive. Then low and behold First proposed a fleet of 390 based "mini-pendos", which would have been on the rails by now if the DfT hadn't messed up the procedures.

A few months ago, many people were saying that there was no way Hitachi were going to be building the new stock for the MML, because the 80x couldn't meet the 222 performance spec, and it would be impossible to adjust the performance.

Sometimes, it's a good idea to take what many people say with a pinch of salt.

 

[toby_farman]

Before the previous (abandoned) WCML franchise award, many people were saying that there was no way any more 390's could be built, they didn't meet standards, all the jigs had been destroyed and it would be too expensive. Then low and behold First proposed a fleet of 390 based "mini-pendos", which would have been on the rails by now if the DfT hadn't messed up the procedures.

A few months ago, many people were saying that there was no way Hitachi were going to be building the new stock for the MML, because the 80x couldn't meet the 222 performance spec, and it would be impossible to adjust the performance.

Sometimes, it's a good idea to take what many people say with a pinch of salt.

No "mini-pendos" please. Preferably, just regular 390s, but i hope if they build similar trains, just slightly more modern.

 

[MarkyT]

That only accounts for a few route miles.

I know and only included it specifically as it was known to me from studies I carried out as a consultant working on validating the speed increases planned for Voyagers under Operation Princess (when TASS was also envisaged for XC). I also said that there may be other areas where MU speeds are higher already, or where improved non-tilt speed could be introduced by infrastructure work at little cost.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Before the previous (abandoned) WCML franchise award, many people were saying that there was no way any more 390's could be built, they didn't meet standards, all the jigs had been destroyed and it would be too expensive. Then low and behold First proposed a fleet of 390 based "mini-pendos", which would have been on the rails by now if the DfT hadn't messed up the procedures.

The 2012 proposal would have been for the New Pendolino design (ETR 610 and similar).
Just because it was from Alstom and called a Pendolino didn't mean it was a 390 clone.
That order would not have been for a large fleet either, it was just to top up the 390 fleet.
Alstom wouldn't want to continue production of a (now) obsolete 20-year-old design.

 

[Darandio]

That only accounts for a few route miles.
The trains will be tilting...

Contantly repeating that new stock will have tilt capability doesn't automatically make it true. The reasons why it might not have been extensively outlined in this thread long before you arrived on this forum and have been repeated today, yet despite being relatively young you insist that people posting in the thread are wrong, with some of these people having years and years of actual experience on the railway.

 

[MalaiseForever]

Why can't they make more 390s I mean they'll probably not have the same TOPs number because of safety stuff. They wouldn't be exactly the same but would match the pendolinos in speed and capacity...?

I’ve lost count of how many times it has been explained why no more 390s will be made. Please can you properly read what people are saying here. Happy to clarify things if you don’t understand, but it feels like you just aren’t reading what we’re saying.

 

[toby_farman]

Contantly repeating that new stock will have tilt capability doesn't automatically make it true. The reasons why it might not have been extensively outlined in this thread long before you arrived on this forum and have been repeated today, yet despite being relatively young you insist that people posting in the thread are wrong, with some of these people having years and years of actual experience on the railway.

Ok, fair, but why would they replace fast trains (AKA super voyagers) with slower trains? Any new trains would need to surely match the capability of the pendos because their going to run on services to birmingham and manchester - if they had a fleet of slower trains then it would be more difficult to timetable for those slower trains on some services and faster trains on others. If they had trains of the same size and speed then they would be easily interchangeable if there was a fault with some pendolinos for example.

 

[toby_farman]

I’ve lost count of how many times it has been explained why no more 390s will be made. Please can you properly read what people are saying here. Happy to clarify things if you don’t understand, but it feels like you just aren’t reading what we’re saying.

I'm not suggesting more 390s - just similar EMUs + BMMUs (with tilting) that would meet modern safety standards (if you read my reply, i did clarify that)

 

[toby_farman]

So you agree that there won’t be any more 390s then? And also, no manufacturer is going to set up a new production line for a micro fleet of 23 trains. It makes no economic sense whatsoever. It is almost definitely going to be 80x. As has been explained many, many times in this thread.

I don't have much knowledge on this, but didn't they build the original batch of pendos in Washwood Heath, England and then (5 years later) set up a new production line in Savigliano, Italy for a small batch of more coaches and trains? Couldn't this happen again with the new trains for the new operator?

 

[6Gman]

They will be tilting, if they're not tilting, they can't go at 125mph.

Non-tilting trains can travel at 125mph. They've been doing it for 40+ years!

 

[toby_farman]

Non-tilting trains can travel at 125mph. They've been doing it for 40+ years!

I mean on the WCML, don't be pedantic.

 

[toby_farman]

While I'm not expecting new tilting trains for the WCML, you are not correct about small batches of tilting trains from Alstom.
Almost all their production has been for small batches of 10-20 units for places like Portugal, Poland, Finland and the cross-Alpine routes, all with unique requirements.
Alstom has bid before for new stock for the WCML (2012 and since) which would use the New Pendolino design already in service elsewhere.
Yes, it needs adapting for the UK, but not all of the continental design needs to be thrown out of the window.
But I expect we'll get non-tilting AT300s.

There are two conflicting threads at the moment about the viability of non-tilt 125mph operation on the WCML.
I'm inclined to go with the view that it's possible but only with some track realignment, which is expensive and time-consuming, and it's not in NR's CP6 plans.
HS2 might bring it on, but that's by no means certain yet.
Whether faster acceleration up to 110mph can claw some time back, we'll have to see.
Otherwise, Chester/North Wales passengers can look forward to a slower journey from London when the new trains arrive.

If Alstom can make a small batch, why would the trains not be tilting? They could redesign the trains slightly for the GB loading gauge but they could still tilt and run at 125mph...

 

[edwin_m]

I mean on the WCML, don't be pedantic.

The same laws of physics apply on the WCML as everywhere else. The reason non-tilting trains haven't been allowed to go above 110mph is that nobody has wanted to run them badly enough to spend some money on minor upgrades and paperwork to make it possible. In fact it's been in Virgin's interests to ensure that only tilting trains can run at the maximum speed on the WCML so non-tilting trains probably can't keep up and therefore competitors can't take advantage of any spare paths.

Until now. As mentioned numerous times upthread, NR is looking at what parts of the WCML could permit higher speeds by non-tiliting trains. This is primarily to reduce the time penalty of running a non-tilting HS2 set on the northern WCML compared with a Pendolino, but would also benefit any other non-tilting high speed EMUs.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I've found a rare photo of the new trains for the WCML*

Crikey, that thing's ugly. Its mother must surely love it, though.

 

[krus_aragon]

two trains per hour from London to Chester/Holyhead/Wrexham

I think you'll find that's still going to be 1tph (with the possible exception of some rush-hour extras to serve Gobowen while still sending a double-unit to Holyhead).

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I don't have much knowledge on this, but didn't they build the original batch of pendos in Washwood Heath, England and then (5 years later) set up a new production line in Savigliano, Italy for a small batch of more coaches and trains? Couldn't this happen again with the new trains for the new operator?

They are Alstom trains, and the vehicles are mostly Italian (from Savigliano which was a Fiat Ferroviara plant before Alstom bought it).
Savigliano is the main construction site for all Pendolinos, including all bodyshells.
There was some UK content (not a lot) in the 390s, and the first batch was indeed assembled at Washwood Heath.
Washwood Heath closed for complicated reasons (poor build quality of Coradia/Juniper trains mainly, leading to an orders famine), so all subsequent Pendolino vehicles came from Savigliano.
That includes the second batch of 390s and the 2-vehicle extensions to make 31 trains 11-car rather than 9, delivered in 2011/12.
Meanwhile, a completely updated Pendolino design (New Pendolino) went into production and is still being delivered by Alstom, which the UK has not bought.

 

[NoMorePacers]

I've found a rare photo of the new trains for the WCML*:
View attachment 69611
*May not accurately represent new trains

Nah, it's this:

 

[Bletchleyite]

Completely agreed. Just change the paint and seat cover colour and you're there.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

You mustn't criticise a "bullet train" though.
We moan about window alignment, while they have to put up with airliner-type portholes.

 

[EE Andy b1]

If Alstom can make a small batch, why would the trains not be tilting? They could redesign the trains slightly for the GB loading gauge but they could still tilt and run at 125mph...

One of the main problems with tilting trains is not just the initial expensive costs of a new build small production for UK loading gauge but also the expense to maintain tilting trains which i believe is quite a lot more expensive than conventional trains. Alstom have already cut staffing levels and concentrated most of there maintenance of the Class 390 fleet at Longsight, Manchester Traincare depot to cut costs in hoping to continue Pendolino maintenance from 2023 onwards.

I can only see the new trains going down the Hitachi Class 8xx route, for both the EMU and the Bi-Mode types as this would keep training of Drivers/Train managers/On board crews & maintenance costs down to a minimum by having a common fleet and surely both types could work in multiple if required in service or for assistance.

Network Rail have been working with First and TPE into raising the linespeed in certain areas to allow 125 mph running with non-tilt trains so this is obviously the way they are looking going forward.

 

[Energy]

Alstom did make a small batch of pendolinos between 2009 and 2012, it was only 62 carriages but they still did the order, I wonder if Talgo could make a bimode tilting train... I'm still hoping for Stadler EC250s though.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Alstom did make a small batch of pendolinos between 2009 and 2012, it was only 62 carriages but they still did the order, I wonder if Talgo could make a bimode tilting train... I'm still hoping for Stadler EC250s though.

I'd love it to be Stadler, but it's about as likely as it being 4 Pacers coupled together.

 

[EE Andy b1]

I'd love it to be Stadler, but it's about as likely as it being 4 Pacers coupled together.

I would go for these if they did a Bi-mode version as well. The look fits best with the Class 390.

 

[EE Andy b1]

"First Trenitalia will establish a Joint Working Party with the Trades Unions to obtain their input on the cab design of the new trains as well as aspects of updating of the Pendolinos and Voyagers."

Input of cab design of new trains, that would imply to me a new Class or type to those already existing or maybe just to update existing cab design that are not quite right.

 

[Energy]

"First Trenitalia will establish a Joint Working Party with the Trades Unions to obtain their input on the cab design of the new trains as well as aspects of updating of the Pendolinos and Voyagers."

Input of cab design of new trains, that would imply to me a new Class or type to those already existing or maybe just to update existing cab design that are not quite right.

Well, this suggests that we may not be getting IETs but something different, nice to know that although they may just modify an IET.

 

[Mountain Man]

Ok, fair, but why would they replace fast trains (AKA super voyagers) with slower trains?

Because Procurement viability is an influencing factor.

Rolling stock purchase is not simply an exercise in technological improvement.

Furthermore improved acceleration can offset a lower top speed.

 

[Energy]

Now the brand has been announced, is there any news on the trains?

 

[NoMorePacers]

Now the brand has been announced, is there any news on the trains?

There you go.

A Class 800.

 

[EE Andy b1]

There you go.

I don't think there is room for the big orange triangle with 'AVANTI West Coast' on the cab side of those Class 80x types!

But they're probably going to be the ones. Just get the interior and on-board services right. We know the ride quality.

 

[NoMorePacers]

Don't think there is room for the big orange triangle with AVANTI West Coast on the cab side of them Class 80x types!.

But there probably going to be the one's. Just get the interior and on-board services right. We know the ride quality.

Don’t worry - they’ll shove it in somewhere.

Chances are they’ll be the exact same spec as the GWR ones too (including catering provisions).