Caledonian Sleeper

[FtoE]

The 08:11 ScotRail is, as you might expect, busy but it’s a 125 fortunately. It seems to have a refurb 1st class but the high-density non-refurb Standard, so everyone (at least in Standard) has a seat.
The only issue is that the trolley has run out of coffee!

 

[JModulo]

Is their a reliable source for this? RTT is quoting code M7 (Door and Door system faults) the brakes would be MN (Brake and brake systems faults)

I know RTT is not always correct but it can only relay what is in TRUST, so someone must have entered this correctly or not.

Stopped for dragging brakes issues (on the coaches) several times this morning which were then overcome, then a door opened upon departure at Perth.

 

[31160]

67&73 just gone through Avimore empty stock

 

[Alanko]

Possibly a daft or impossible-to-answer question, but why are 92s used on the Sleeper service? From foggy memory, these were built for Channel Tunnel freight services that never really materialised. Have they been kicking around gathering dust since then? It is quite good that they are finally having this lease of life, but would a bi-mode loco like the 88 make more sense, as it can provide more contingency?

 

[Bungle965]

Possibly a daft or impossible-to-answer question, but why are 92s used on the Sleeper service? From foggy memory, these were built for Channel Tunnel freight services that never really materialised. Have they been kicking around gathering dust since then? It is quite good that they are finally having this lease of life, but would a bi-mode loco like the 88 make more sense, as it can provide more contingency?

The 92s are used due to the ETS requirements of the Mk5 sleeping stock, they are significantly higher than that of the Mk3 stock which they replaced which meant that a change was forced away from the 90s and 67s (used on the diesel legs) to 92s and 73s.
The 92s have had little work really over the years and allot of them were allowed to gather dust and end up in poor shape, both the 92s and the 73s which are used on CS have been extensively refurbished.
Sam

 

[Far north 37]

Possibly a daft or impossible-to-answer question, but why are 92s used on the Sleeper service? From foggy memory, these were built for Channel Tunnel freight services that never really materialised. Have they been kicking around gathering dust since then? It is quite good that they are finally having this lease of life, but would a bi-mode loco like the 88 make more sense, as it can provide more contingency?

Part of the class 92 fleet was built for overnight sleeper services through the tunnel that never materialised.
They were the only electric locos gbrf had went they bid to provide the traction for the service.
After all the mods they had they have turned out reliable solid locos.

 

[47271]

This issue is getting beyond a joke now. Have these issues been identified in a known set or are they fleet wide?

The resulting disruption to CS passengers and other TOCs trains and passengers is unacceptable. It is also reflecting badly on the brand. I read about this mornings problems in the press!

As I understand it's two of the very early to service sets that continue to cause most of the problems.

As for Dalton, sorry the press, in my view they have more need to spend their time investigating why Scotrail's intercity service is in chaos rather than getting excited over every misstep of the sleeper. It's so easy to give a quick glance at Twitter or take a call from your mate in Pitlochry and knock out another lazy few lines about an alarm going off. I'm not playing down the seriousness of continuing faults on the train, but for goodness sake...

 

[John Bishop]

As I understand it's two of the very early to service sets that continue to cause most of the problems.

As for Dalton, sorry the press, in my view they have more need to spend their time investigating why Scotrail's intercity service is in chaos rather than getting excited over every misstep of the sleeper. It's so easy to give a quick glance at Twitter or take a call from your mate in Pitlochry and knock out another lazy few lines about an alarm going off. I'm not playing down the seriousness of continuing faults on the train, but for goodness sake...

To be fair, it wasn’t Dalton this time, but a fairly wide read North of Scotland publication.

 

[47271]

To be fair, it wasn’t Dalton this time, but a fairly wide read North of Scotland publication.

Fair enough, and I don't mind the P&J, they tend to put a bit more effort in.

Dalton is going on about alarms in The Scotsman this morning, that's why I thought it was him.

 

[JModulo]

Fair enough, and I don't mind the P&J, they tend to put a bit more effort in.

Dalton is going on about alarms in The Scotsman this morning, that's why I thought it was him.

As much as his work is a load of waffle, most of it is actually what is going on and current problems of the sleeper, despite some reports being a tad pathetic (ie, no coffee available).

 

[6Z09]

Can hardĺy blame the press when they report problems with the Caledonian Sleeper,these issues have been going on for months now, many are the same from day one of the introduction of the new stock!
Winter weather will be a further test on the Highlander services.

 

[MrEd]

As much as his work is a load of waffle, most of it is actually what is going on and current problems of the sleeper, despite some reports being a tad pathetic (ie, no coffee available).

The coffee seems to me to be a bit ’First World Problems’ (although if it is included in the fare, the TOC should ideally offer a travel voucher or a voucher for a station outlet as compensation- their passengers’ charter suggests that this should be offered, but I’ve never put in such a claim). However, the frequency with which the problems with door interlock, brake demands and fire alarms are recurring on the Mk5s is a serious issue, and I would also note that punctuality is currently a bit of an issue with the northbound Highlander- aside from the Inverness passengers being turfed off at Perth this morning and arriving 2 hours late on a Scotrail HST, if RTT is anything to go by, the northbound Aberdeen and especially Fort William portions seem regularly to arrive between 30 and 60 minutes late at their destinations (today the Fort William portion arrived only a few minutes down, and the Aberdeen was about 20 down, but the delays to these portions were more serious earlier in the week). It seems to me (from a cursory glance at RTT) that time is almost always lost during the split at Edinburgh, and I’m not sure why this is. The northbound Inverness portion very often departs Edinburgh about 20 late, but is generally able to recover this (or most of this) en route. The Fort William portion seems to have the most difficulty, particularly if the direct route via Falkirk High is not an option and it continues to run via Bathgate and Airdrie as booked (possibly out of path and squeezing in among the intensive EMU workings). CS need to sort this soon, as many users of CS are not tourists and will be making time-critical journeys (often involving onward connections).

I’ll be on the northbound Inverness portion on Tuesday night arriving in Inverness on Wednesday morning, with a connection onto the 8.55 Kyle train. I’m very much looking forward to travelling on the Mk5s but am not especially optimistic about a right time arrival in the light of recent events. I’m sure the staff will do everything they can to help though if we’re delayed, and because my journey is not time-critical, it won’t be the end of the world for me if I end up getting the 10.56 rather than the 8.55 out west to Kyle. That said, a lot of other passengers’ journeys may well be time-critical, and I would not fancy relying on CS for a time-critical journey at present.

 

[MrEd]

The 08:11 ScotRail is, as you might expect, busy but it’s a 125 fortunately. It seems to have a refurb 1st class but the high-density non-refurb Standard, so everyone (at least in Standard) has a seat.
The only issue is that the trolley has run out of coffee!

A 125 over the HML doesn’t seem so bad. This brings a question to which I’m unsure of the answer: if you have what is technically a first class ticket for the sleeper (either a club room or a Caledonian double) and you are put onto a day train following a cancellation/termination short of destination, does this allow you to travel in first class accommodation on the day train, or would this be at the day train conductor’s discretion? The question may be academic as there might not be any space in first anyway.

 

[47271]

A 125 over the HML doesn’t seem so bad. This brings a question to which I’m unsure of the answer: if you have what is technically a first class ticket for the sleeper (either a club room or a Caledonian double) and you are put onto a day train following a cancellation/termination short of destination, does this allow you to travel in first class accommodation on the day train, or would this be at the day train conductor’s discretion? The question may be academic as there might not be any space in first anyway.

Any cancellations I've ever had at Euston or Waverley and subsequent day train replacements have had me put in First Class, but that was in the old days of a 'First Class' sleeper berth. I had to be quick at Waverley mind you, or First would've filled up on the 0550.

 

[JonathanH]

It seems to me (from a cursory glance at RTT) that time is almost always lost during the split at Edinburgh, and I’m not sure why this is.

It is because the order of the split has changed to ensure that the Inverness and Edinburgh and Fort William/Aberdeen and Glasgow portions can be worked using the same stock.

This has made the splitting of the northbound Highlander more complicated and means that the Fort William portion can't start to be set up until the Inverness portion has gone and the timetable doesn't reflect this.

 

[trebor79]

It is because the order of the split has changed to ensure that the Inverness and Edinburgh and Fort William/Aberdeen and Glasgow portions can be worked using the same stock.

Why is this necessary with the new stock?

 

[Peter Sarf]

I have some questions

I thought the sets rotated between Highlander and Lowlander at the South end of the WCML - in other words Wembley would send out the mornings Lowlander arrival as the following evenings Highlander. Maybe every day or perhaps only at the weekend. Is this true ?.

Where and when does a half set get swapped with the spare coaches at Polmadie ?.
I seem to recall the swap is done with half of the Lowlander (probably from Glasgow but maybe Edinburgh) at the weekend when No sleepers are running (Sat night). That would make sense but then because the service runs six nights per week the result would be that every weekend would only present the same half of the in-use fleet near Polmadie. So either swaps also happen via Wembley OR on other nights.

Are there enough ordinary sleeper coaches ?. I thought there were 40 ordinary and 14 disabled. Now I have noticed that a service has one half set comprising one disabled and five ordinary sleepers but the other half set comprises two disabled and four ordinary sleepers (this is for the three way split of the Highlander). So each of four services has 3 disabled and 9 ordinary sleepers. With four services a night that is 12 disabled sleepers in use and 36 ordinary sleepers in use. So spare are 2 disables and 4 ordinary - only enough to make up a spare half set with two disabled coaches in.

So I am leading my self to believe that when stock rotation happens it is not achieved by simply replacing a half set ?.

 

[JonathanH]

Why is this necessary with the new stock?

1. The Fort William / Aberdeen needs two PRM (people of reduced mobility) vehicles.
2. Half of the sets have two PRM vehicles, the others have one.
3. The order of the Lowlander service is more difficult to amend than the order of the Highlander service.
4. The stock has to rotate to Polmadie for servicing so can't just stay on the Highlander or Lowlander service.
5. The PRM vehicles have fewer berths than the standard ones.
6. There is more demand for the Edinburgh sleeper than the Glasgow one.
7. They don't shunt portions at Wembley.

 

[MrEd]

It is because the order of the split has changed to ensure that the Inverness and Edinburgh and Fort William/Aberdeen and Glasgow portions can be worked using the same stock.

This has made the splitting of the northbound Highlander more complicated and means that the Fort William portion can't start to be set up until the Inverness portion has gone and the timetable doesn't reflect this.

I understand how this could be. This all makes sense. Presumably, then, some alterations to the schedule/re-timing of some of the portions departing Waverley are needed to ensure right-time arrivals can regularly be achieved? It looks to me as though the current schedule is not regularly achievable (despite a near right-time run all the way down the WCML from London to Edinburgh).

 

[JonathanH]

I have some questions

I thought the sets rotated between Highlander and Lowlander at the South end of the WCML - in other words Wembley would send out the mornings Lowlander arrival as the following evenings Highlander. Maybe every day or perhaps only at the weekend. Is this true ?.

Where and when does a half set get swapped with the spare coaches at Polmadie ?.

I think the simple answer is that, yes, the sets cycle by swapping at Wembley but the spare coaches haven't yet swapped in.

When I last saw the spare coaches in mid October they weren't in the right order.

 

[Peter Sarf]

I think the simple answer is that, yes, the sets cycle by swapping at Wembley but the spare coaches haven't yet swapped in.

When I last saw the spare coaches in mid October they weren't in the right order.

Thank you for the reply.

So it looks like a pattern has not yet started happening - if it is ever intended to be so.

 

[JonathanH]

I understand how this could be. This all makes sense. Presumably, then, some alterations to the schedule/re-timing of some of the portions departing Waverley are needed to ensure right-time arrivals can regularly be achieved? It looks to me as though the current schedule is not regularly achievable (despite a near right-time run all the way down the WCML from London to Edinburgh).

Yes, although they have managed to get the Fort William portion away on time a few times since 14 October. However, it would appear to require very slick operation of the Inverness portion to achieve that as I can't see how the Fort William day coaches can be attached before the Inverness has left.

Problem with rescheduling anything is that all the portions arguably run at about the right times for their market and around other trains.

 

[trebor79]

Could they not put the FW day coaches onto the other end of the FW portion, so it can happen before the Inverness portion leaves?

 

[MrEd]

Could they not put the FW day coaches onto the other end of the FW portion, so it can happen before the Inverness portion leaves?

There’s no reason why they couldn’t, but then I wonder whether it would make the southbound shunt excessively complicated?

 

[JonathanH]

Could they not put the FW day coaches onto the other end of the FW portion, so it can happen before the Inverness portion leaves?

No, the Aberdeen portion is in the way on that half of the platform.

 

[trebor79]

No, the Aberdeen portion is in the way on that half of the platform.

So why can the portions not be ordered differently in order to avoid that.
It sounds like the FW portion is the one that can least afford to be delayed. Arranging the train and shunting manoeuvres so that it's the last portion that can leave Edinburgh sounds a bit messed up.

 

[JonathanH]

So why can the portions not be ordered differently in order to avoid that.
It sounds like the FW portion is the one that can least afford to be delayed. Arranging the train and shunting manoeuvres so that it's the last portion that can leave Edinburgh sounds a bit messed up.

With the previous stock they were in the obvious order to match the timetable but that doesn't suit the way they wish to arrange the operation of the new stock.

From a practical sense, shunting at Wembley during the day would resolve this but I guess that is not something they want to do. Perhaps they cant do this.

 

[Chrism20]

This may be a bit bizarre but is there anything that could be done differently at Carstairs with the Lowlander that could solve the issue?

Assuming the Highlander one night, lowlander the next is still the set up would hooking up the Southbound Lowlander the opposite way to present not put everything in the right place for the following night?

It would obviously create a bit more work at Carstairs but the Southbound Lowlander is also the one that seems to suffer less timekeeping wise.

 

[JonathanH]

This may be a bit bizarre but is there anything that could be done differently at Carstairs with the Lowlander that could solve the issue?

No, not without a load more shunting and run rounds. You would also need a different track layout.

 

[Chrism20]

No, not without a load more shunting and run rounds. You would also need a different track layout.

I thought that might be the case.