Petition to bring back the buffet on GWR

[jimm]

The problem is of course I assume that the kitchen couldn't be reduced in size either due to the type of meals being cooked.

A potential solution would be to abolish the premium dining and reduce the kitchen by one bay, which would then serve LNER-type meals to 1st Class, complimentary or paid, and add in a mini-buffet for standard class. On nine car units the buffet could be larger to serve a greater number of passengers.

I'm prepared to be shot down in flames...

LNER-type meals, as you put it, are being produced from kitchens that are the same size and have the same equipment as the GWR ones.

The only 80x trains built so far with smaller kitchens (two window bays long, rather than three) are for TPE and Hull Trains, and neither TOC is likely to be providing proper cooked breakfasts.

 

[Goldfish62]

LNER-type meals, as you put it, are being produced from kitchens that are the same size and have the same equipment as the GWR ones.

The only 80x trains built so far with smaller kitchens (two window bays long, rather than three) are for TPE and Hull Trains, and neither TOC is likely to be providing proper cooked breakfasts.

Yes, but do they have to be that size to produce those sorts of meals? Genuine question.

 

[Ashley Hill]

The kitchens on GWR are used only for the handful of restaurant services during the day. None operate PAD-BRI,PAD-GMV or PAD-EXD and vice versa. Therefore £1Ks of equiptment gets dragged around needlessly throughout the day. AFIK GWR no longer offers hot food of any kind on its non dining services. How would you order hot food from a trolley in coach A when only one steward is provided who desperately tries to split their time between 1st and STD.

 

[jimm]

Yes, but do they have to be that size to produce those sorts of meals? Genuine question.

I expect even the DfT might have talked to people who know about these things before signing the contracts

Just to provide storage space for catering supplies, ovens and boilers and prep space on the HT and TPE sets is taking up two-thirds of the space of the large kitchen areas, so I would think chefs and crews plating up a lot of breakfast or dinner orders probably do need the extra room and kit on GWR and LNER.

The kitchens on GWR are used only for the handful of restaurant services during the day. None operate PAD-BRI,PAD-GMV or PAD-EXD and vice versa. Therefore £1Ks of equiptment gets dragged around needlessly throughout the day. AFIK GWR no longer offers hot food of any kind on its non dining services. How would you order hot food from a trolley in coach A when only one steward is provided who desperately tries to split their time between 1st and STD.

DfT made the design choices - and if GWR or a future franchisee ever decided to go down the same route as the East and West Coasts TOCs have done with their first class complimentary offers, then more trains might be in need of big kitchens more of the time.

Also, after all the shenanigans there used to be about making sure that a GWR HST set with the right sort of kitchen kit needed for the Pullman services was diagrammed on them, building a few IETs with big kitchens and trying to keep them on Pullmans, with no back-up available, would end in tears at some point.

Hot food should be available to order from GWR trolleys.

Bacon rolls have been on sale on morning peak trains for quite some time and other items now seem to be offered on some services the rest of the day.

But provision is erratic, whether that is due to availability of stock or the enthusiasm or otherwise of personnel on individual services, I don't know. It is high time GWR got its act together on ensuring that there is consistent provision across the board throughout the day.

 

[ashkeba]

I have not yet seen 1st on one of these so do not know: could a serving hatch be added to the kitchens to make them buffets on non-restaurant services? Or get a steward to deliver a Railjet bistro style service from it, picking up any paper slip orders handed to them as they walk the train making deliveries to intranet website orderers.

A trolley dock would be a reasonable way to do it and could be fitted in by moving a bike cupboard.

There is already not enough bike/surfboard storage on those trains. Move the rubbish bag cupboard instead of indulging your cyclist-bashing.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I have not yet seen 1st on one of these so do not know: could a serving hatch be added to the kitchens to make them buffets on non-restaurant services? Or get a steward to deliver a Railjet bistro style service from it, picking up any paper slip orders handed to them as they walk the train making deliveries to intranet website orderers.


There is already not enough bike/surfboard storage on those trains. Move the rubbish bag cupboard instead of indulging your cyclist-bashing.

Wow. I said move it (to another location), not remove it. The trolley dock with power supply and water heater could then be modified to have a counter.

 

[Goldfish62]

I expect even the DfT might have talked to people who know about these things before signing the contracts

Just to provide storage space for catering supplies, ovens and boilers and prep space on the HT and TPE sets is taking up two-thirds of the space of the large kitchen areas, so I would think chefs and crews plating up a lot of breakfast or dinner orders probably do need the extra room and kit on GWR and LNER.



DfT made the design choices - and if GWR or a future franchisee ever decided to go down the same route as the East and West Coasts TOCs have done with their first class complimentary offers, then more trains might be in need of big kitchens more of the time.

Also, after all the shenanigans there used to be about making sure that a GWR HST set with the right sort of kitchen kit needed for the Pullman services was diagrammed on them, building a few IETs with big kitchens and trying to keep them on Pullmans, with no back-up available, would end in tears at some point.

Hot food should be available to order from GWR trolleys.

Bacon rolls have been on sale on morning peak trains for quite some time and other items now seem to be offered on some services the rest of the day.

But provision is erratic, whether that is due to availability of stock or the enthusiasm or otherwise of personnel on individual services, I don't know. It is high time GWR got its act together on ensuring that there is consistent provision across the board throughout the day.

There's no bacon rolls now. The only "hot" food available is glorified pot noodles.

 

[Fast Track]

There's no bacon rolls now. The only "hot" food available is glorified pot noodles.

On there 19.04 Plymouth tonight just left Paddington and already within 5 mins they’ve announced no trolley service as the train too busy.

This really is unacceptable GWR.

So no catering on offer again on my trains 2 days running.

 

[R G NOW.]

The kitchens on the 5 cars aren’t pointless as they are the stock (rightly or wrongly due to DfT spec and Penzance stabling capacity as has been discussed on here many times) used on the West Country trains with restauraunt services.

I always thought that ''kitchens'' on trains were known as 'galleys'

 

[43096]

DfT made the design choices - and if GWR or a future franchisee ever decided to go down the same route as the East and West Coasts TOCs have done with their first class complimentary offers, then more trains might be in need of big kitchens more of the time.

Also, after all the shenanigans there used to be about making sure that a GWR HST set with the right sort of kitchen kit needed for the Pullman services was diagrammed on them, building a few IETs with big kitchens and trying to keep them on Pullmans, with no back-up available, would end in tears at some point.

Hot food should be available to order from GWR trolleys.

Bacon rolls have been on sale on morning peak trains for quite some time and other items now seem to be offered on some services the rest of the day.

But provision is erratic, whether that is due to availability of stock or the enthusiasm or otherwise of personnel on individual services, I don't know. It is high time GWR got its act together on ensuring that there is consistent provision across the board throughout the day.

The whole catering provision is a nonsense. The elitist Pullman service, that benefits a handful of passenger per day, is effectively being provided to the detriment of the catering to everyone else. The kitchen area is in the wrong place for a start - BR long ago learned that the best place for the catering facility was between first and standard class - and should have seen the driving car made all first class with a kitchen/buffet provided at the end of the next coach (i.e. where the existing first class area is in the composite coach is). That would have allowed a static buffet service that served hot food and the first class service from there as well. There may have been sufficient space to include a kitchen area that if it couldn't do the full Pullman offer could at least do DB-style meals.

Too late now and it will have to wait for refurbishment, the current setup will stay as a reminder of the appalling DfT decision making and WorstGroup's weak and pathetic influence on even the 802 order. Still, as someone who occasionally used GWR for long-distance travel in the past, it's another customer lost.

 

[dmu fan]

Was on the 1932 Gloucester to Cheltenham service yesterday. A 9 carriage service. A trolley was advertised. First class at the rear. I was in coach b. There were 2 catering staff announced. Assuming 1st had their staff member and standard the other.The train was busy but not full. At kemble both catering staff walked through our carriage sharing a trolley. A waste of time. Glad I got my food and drink on the concourse at paddington before boarding the train.

 

[Clarence Yard]

As one of the people involved in the procurement of the cl.802 order, there was nothing weak and pathetic about First Group in relation to the interior. The DfT had a major fit when they found out that they might get units with a different interior. I have stated on here previously that the units would have not been authorised unless they had an identical configuration to the cl.800 units. They even checked with the manufacturers direct that this would be the case, just in case we had been sneaky.

What also helped them was that Hitachi like producing a standard product, where variations (such as seat design or even buffet cars) get really expensive. It caused a bit of a “diplomatic situation” when the East Coast bidders could propose minor design modifications (in 12 areas, iirc) when the DfT had already closed down the GWR design and wouldn’t allow any changes.

Frankly, trying to serve punters in a crowded 9 car all from trolleys from one end is mad. So is converting a designed luggage area on the LNER sets into what I would class as a micro buffet. If you are going to serve punters full length in a 9 car you really need a proper trolley servicing area somewhere towards the middle. Then you could include a serving hatch and shelf if you want to.

 

[Energy]

XC haven't got buffets despite doing much longer services and nobody complains. The IETs already have a kitchen so hot food can be done, if they havent already, maybe they should put something for ordering food into the onboard media thing.

 

[fgwrich]

XC haven't got buffets despite doing much longer services and nobody complains. The IETs already have a kitchen so hot food can be done, if they havent already, maybe they should put something for ordering food into the onboard media thing.

I think you'll find there have been numerous complaints over XC's catering for many years (made worse by XC's removal of the shop), and subsequent issues with the trolley's not being able to pass through. Something which, as covered in this thread many a time, is now frequently happening on the GWR IET Sets. The other issue here is that while XC's services do cover long distances, a lot of XC's traffic is in effect high speed commuter work. This is about the removal of a higher quality catering set up as provided by the Buffet, with a often substandard or poor offering from a trolley on traditionally long distance intercity services. If you read back through the thread, you'll see that various forms of "At Seat Ordering" / Further use of the kitchens have been talked about, as has every set having to drag around a mostly out of use kitchen on each service.

I feel a potentially viable option for this situation however could be - Bring back the Travelling Chef. At least that would strike some form of balance between the poor offering from the trolley, vs the relatively exclusive Pullman Dining offering.

 

[pt_mad]

I feel a potentially viable option for this situation however could be - Bring back the Travelling Chef. At least that would strike some form of balance between the poor offering from the trolley, vs the relatively exclusive Pullman Dining offering.

What was the Travelling Chef?

 

[Bletchleyite]

The whole catering provision is a nonsense. The elitist Pullman service, that benefits a handful of passenger per day, is effectively being provided to the detriment of the catering to everyone else. The kitchen area is in the wrong place for a start - BR long ago learned that the best place for the catering facility was between first and standard class - and should have seen the driving car made all first class with a kitchen/buffet provided at the end of the next coach (i.e. where the existing first class area is in the composite coach is). That would have allowed a static buffet service that served hot food and the first class service from there as well. There may have been sufficient space to include a kitchen area that if it couldn't do the full Pullman offer could at least do DB-style meals.

It's typically at the end of 125mph MUs because it's otherwise wasted space, because you can't have passenger accommodation right up to the end of the vehicle (to give you an idea compare with the Standard class end). Though you could I guess make it a window bay or two smaller.

 

[Bletchleyite]

What was the Travelling Chef?

Fancy toasties made on-spec by a chef. I'm not convinced, to be honest. The range of quality cold food at stations these days is excellent. What I want, in a 5 hour journey from Penzance to Paddington, is about 3 cups of tea. Deliver that reliably and I'm happy.

I would on a journey like that consider paying for a sit down meal (more DB style than fancy restaurant style), that said - which is why it would make sense to have dedicated 9 car sets for the Westcountry with a suitable facility including seating. For the rest of it a tea trolley is fine provided it is reliable, it's more of a pseudo-suburban commuter operation these days anyway.

 

[JN114]

It's typically at the end of 125mph MUs because it's otherwise wasted space, because you can't have passenger accommodation right up to the end of the vehicle (to give you an idea compare with the Standard class end). Though you could I guess make it a window bay or two smaller.

Myth.

The standard class driving vehicle on the IETs shows what is possible with regard to how close you can get to the front of the train in seated accommodations.

The reason you can’t put a kitchen in the middle of trains nowadays is because you can’t provide an aisle wide enough past it to meet accessibility regs. If you narrow the kitchen too much you can’t then meet H&S regs for safe working areas around cooking equipment. That’s why every new train since privatisation that’s had a full kitchen installed (390, 222 and IETs by my count) has put it at the end of a driving vehicle. Then it doesn’t need to be a pass through area. Without significant changes to either H&S law or Accessibility law you’re not having a full kitchen, as required to prepare restaurant service food between 1st and Standard accommodation within UK loading gauge. End of.

Ive already put what they could in theory do to improve the offering within the contractual constraints that are unchangeable upthread. Long story short you’d need to dramatically increase the staff headcount onboard.

 

[AlbertBeale]

Myth.

The standard class driving vehicle on the IETs shows what is possible with regard to how close you can get to the front of the train in seated accommodations.

The reason you can’t put a kitchen in the middle of trains nowadays is because you can’t provide an aisle wide enough past it to meet accessibility regs. If you narrow the kitchen too much you can’t then meet H&S regs for safe working areas around cooking equipment. That’s why every new train since privatisation that’s had a full kitchen installed (390, 222 and IETs by my count) has put it at the end of a driving vehicle. Then it doesn’t need to be a pass through area. Without significant changes to either H&S law or Accessibility law you’re not having a full kitchen, as required to prepare restaurant service food between 1st and Standard accommodation within UK loading gauge. End of.

Ive already put what they could in theory do to improve the offering within the contractual constraints that are unchangeable upthread. Long story short you’d need to dramatically increase the staff headcount onboard.

How often is it necessary for someone in a wheelchair (or indeed anyone) to move past a buffet between the First and Standard class areas? If the food is between the two classes, and the counter layout is such that it's possible to be served without going right past, and there are loos in both 1st and Standard, do people other than train crew ever need to move the whole length of the train? We're all used to travelling on trains in this country made up of units without through gangway connections. In what way is a buffet that there's isn't that much room to get past any different/worse? I know that some H&S etc etc can be a bit puzzling common-sense-wise, but I really don't understand why a narrow walkway past the buffet is forbidden.

 

[Mag_seven]

Getting back to the subject of this thread - how is the petition going? Are GWR/DFT going to bring back the buffet? I suspect we all know the answer to both questions.

 

[Goldfish62]

Fancy toasties made on-spec by a chef. I'm not convinced, to be honest. The range of quality cold food at stations these days is excellent. What I want, in a 5 hour journey from Penzance to Paddington, is about 3 cups of tea. Deliver that reliably and I'm happy.

I would on a journey like that consider paying for a sit down meal (more DB style than fancy restaurant style), that said - which is why it would make sense to have dedicated 9 car sets for the Westcountry with a suitable facility including seating. For the rest of it a tea trolley is fine provided it is reliable, it's more of a pseudo-suburban commuter operation these days anyway.

It's all very well being able to get food before you board the train at large stations, but what if you're in a hurry or have a tight connection, or the station has no such facilities? For example, Penzance has no station cafe or shops and there's nothing nearby, especially if catching an early morning train.

 

[Bikeman78]

How often is it necessary for someone in a wheelchair (or indeed anyone) to move past a buffet between the First and Standard class areas? If the food is between the two classes, and the counter layout is such that it's possible to be served without going right past, and there are loos in both 1st and Standard, do people other than train crew ever need to move the whole length of the train? We're all used to travelling on trains in this country made up of units without through gangway connections. In what way is a buffet that there's isn't that much room to get past any different/worse? I know that some H&S etc etc can be a bit puzzling common-sense-wise, but I really don't understand why a narrow walkway past the buffet is forbidden.

It would be interesting to compare the width of the aisle on new 3+2 seated trains with the corridor past the kitchen on a Mark 3.

 

[aar0]

There's no bacon rolls now. The only "hot" food available is glorified pot noodles.

That's a recent change then. Last time I caught a GWR Swansea - London they took orders for hot food (mainly bacon rolls) and delivered them about 5 minutes later, steaming hot.

 

[Essexman]

For journeys of up to five hours (and many around three hours) there should be a decent food option. Pullman restaurants are excellent but limited capacity (people turned away at busy times) and expensive. Something like the Travelling Chef would be ideal for certain services that don't have the Pullman. I wonder if the next operator will want to bring in complimentary first class meals as on East & West coast. I hope not. I'd rather pay for food if I want it & have it available to all passengers.

 

[tiptoptaff]

How often is it necessary for someone in a wheelchair (or indeed anyone) to move past a buffet between the First and Standard class areas? If the food is between the two classes, and the counter layout is such that it's possible to be served without going right past, and there are loos in both 1st and Standard, do people other than train crew ever need to move the whole length of the train? We're all used to travelling on trains in this country made up of units without through gangway connections. In what way is a buffet that there's isn't that much room to get past any different/worse? I know that some H&S etc etc can be a bit puzzling common-sense-wise, but I really don't understand why a narrow walkway past the buffet is forbidden.

During fire/evacuation/emergency - the fact this may happen once in a a million journeys, rather than every day, is beside the point. Regulations say that wheelchairs must be able to pass along it. And they also say a kitchen must be a minimum width. UK loading guage, as has been posted, does not allow for both

 

[MarlowDonkey]

It would be interesting to compare the width of the aisle on new 3+2 seated trains with the corridor past the kitchen on a Mark 3.

3+2 trains don't have buffets. It's perfectly OK to deny a facility to disabled users if it's denied to everybody else. The recent withdrawal of disabled toilets on many of the local services between Paddington and Reading being a case in point. There are no toilets for anyone !

 

[jimm]

I feel a potentially viable option for this situation however could be - Bring back the Travelling Chef. At least that would strike some form of balance between the poor offering from the trolley, vs the relatively exclusive Pullman Dining offering.

Are you seriously using the words 'Travelling Chef' and 'viable' in the same sentence?

The reason that Travelling Chef was axed by FGW was because it was deeply, seriously unviable financially, with red ink flowing like warm tomato ketchup.

 

[devonexpress]

The current layout really doesn't work, especially 2x5 IET's. My journey from Bristol to Reading the other day for example, Standard Class was rammed in the front 5, so the customer host, only served 1st Class (Thankfully that's what I had booked). Ok it only took just over an hour, but it hardly seems fair that I got 3 chances of a cup of tea/coffee, yet standard had nothing.

 

[PHILIPE]

Has anybody yet come across all these people who are supposed to have taken part in the research to decide that passengers would rather have at seat service from a trolley ?

 

[Deafdoggie]

Has anybody yet come across all these people who are supposed to have taken part in the research to decide that passengers would rather have at seat service from a trolley ?

yes. I filled a survey in about it