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Government considering splitting Northern into North West and North East franchises from March 31

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Jorge Da Silva

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Any thoughts on this?

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/busines...l-split-ministers-lay-ground-nationalisation/
Northern rail would be separated into two franchises – North West and North East – under plans prepared by Whitehall officials, senior industry sources said.

Northern rail would be separated into two franchises – North West and North East – under plans prepared by Whitehall officials, senior industry sources said.

It is understood that the troubled train network will be formally transferred into public ownership as early as March 31 under plans pulled together by Whitehall officials.

Transport secretary Grant Shapps ordered Arriva – owned by German state operator Deutsche Bahn – to draw up a new plan for the network in October. Its proposals will be compared to those put forward by the Operator of Last Resort, a government body that runs failed rail franchise

Moderator note: This thread is to discuss what is actually happening/proposed; any suggestions are welcome in the Proposals to split Northern into two franchises - How would you do it? thread in the Speculative Ideas section, thanks :)
 
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Bletchleyite

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Probably makes sense, it's unmanageably large at the moment and combining the staff T&Cs is going to be too costly. It worked reasonably well as RRNW and RRNE before (TPE was then part of RRNE).
 

Iskra

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Probably makes sense, it's unmanageably large at the moment and combining the staff T&Cs is going to be too costly. It worked reasonably well as RRNW and RRNE before (TPE was then part of RRNE).

It did, but then it was dire after privatisation. Im not sure what can be gained, apart from another duplicated set of backroom staff and increasing subsidies while reducing efficiencies of scale.
 
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It says in the article the government are unwilling to commit to funding infrastructure improvements. So what is the point? With no infrastructure improvements it is only going to get worse. Absolute joke.
 

Along the bay

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Where would the boundary be drawn ? There are plenty of services which cross the pennines eg: Leeds - Blackpool north.
 

Bletchleyite

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Where would the boundary be drawn ? There are plenty of services which cross the pennines eg: Leeds - Blackpool north.

There was some overlap. RRNE had TPE and also had that service, RRNW had Manchester, Liverpool and West Lancashire locals and NorthWest Express (Blackpool, Barrow, Windermere). The split was more based on which depots operated which service.
 

Iskra

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It really wasn't. FNW did overstretch themselves a bit, but overall they did quite a lot reasonably punctually and reliably with not a lot of resources. I used them extensively 1995-2001 ish.

I didnt have issues with FNW, but Northern Spirit/ATN were awful. Always cancelling the Lancaster-Leeds and Leeds-Knottingley services. 14X’s turning up on the S&C.

I just dont see what positive can come from splitting it as far as the customer is concerned.
 

Ianno87

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It really wasn't. FNW did overstretch themselves a bit, but overall they did quite a lot reasonably punctually and reliably with not a lot of resources. I used them extensively 1995-2001 ish.

Latter days on FNW in 2002/3 were pretty dire, with a never-ending industrial dispute, and about 12 months of planned cancellations due to an overtime ban. *Not* getting turfed off at Oxford Rd due to not having a driver was a rare treat.
 

Robertj21a

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I didnt have issues with FNW, but Northern Spirit/ATN were awful. Always cancelling the Lancaster-Leeds and Leeds-Knottingley services. 14X’s turning up on the S&C.

I just dont see what positive can come from splitting it as far as the customer is concerned.

Won't the passenger find that the eastern side are more accommodating/less militant than the western side ?
 

Andyh82

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The thread title is a tad tabloid. Suggesting it’s a done confirmed deal, whereas the article says ‘it is understood...’ with ‘a source...’ confirming it.
 

Mogster

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Probably makes sense, it's unmanageably large at the moment and combining the staff T&Cs is going to be too costly. It worked reasonably well as RRNW and RRNE before (TPE was then part of RRNE).

Really West from Manchester things seemed to be working OK up until a couple of years ago. The service was overcrowded and slow but shortforming was rare and serious delays were unusual rather than the norm

The Chord bridge, May 18 timetable, PRM mods, training on new hardware, and 142 withdrawal seem to have created a perfect storm of disaster.
 

LNW-GW Joint

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Probably makes sense, it's unmanageably large at the moment and combining the staff T&Cs is going to be too costly. It worked reasonably well as RRNW and RRNE before (TPE was then part of RRNE).

TP North was in RRNE but TP South wasn't, nor was Airport-Blackpool/Cumbria/Scotland. Not that it matters.
I haven't seen the whole article, so don't know if the move includes TPE as well as Northern.
They keep on talking about "renationalisation" but it's surely not that at all - just a rearrangement of the franchise map, maybe under direct DfT/TfN control for a while.
In fact if it doesn't include some development of the devolution agenda it's not going to solve the political stand-off with the metro mayors.
Management changes by themselves won't solve the long-standing operational issues we all know about - Castlefield, platform lengths, congestion, train reliability etc.
How will splitting all the fleets help anyone?
The training issues should all be solved within 12 months anyway, on both franchises, without any intervention.
 

NoMorePacers

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TP North was in RRNE but TP South wasn't, nor was Airport-Blackpool/Cumbria/Scotland. Not that it matters.
I haven't seen the whole article, so don't know if the move includes TPE as well as Northern.
They keep on talking about "renationalisation" but it's surely not that at all - just a rearrangement of the franchise map, maybe under direct DfT/TfN control for a while.
In fact if it doesn't include some development of the devolution agenda it's not going to solve the political stand-off with the metro mayors.
Management changes by themselves won't solve the long-standing operational issues we all know about - Castlefield, platform lengths, congestion, train reliability etc.
How will splitting all the fleets help anyone?
The training issues should all be solved within 12 months anyway, on both franchises, without any intervention.
I could've sworn that the Arriva Trains Northern timetables I have had the South TPE (Manchester-Sheffield-Cleethorpes) line in them.
 

Mathew S

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I could've sworn that the Arriva Trains Northern timetables I have had the South TPE (Manchester-Sheffield-Cleethorpes) line in them.
The TPE services were formally part of the FNW and ATN franchises. They were split off into a separate TPE franchise when FNW & ATN became one franchise.
 

tbtc

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Maybe the idea is to keep the (relatively) better "east side" in private hands and dump the (relatively) troublesome "west side" into the underfunded public sector, to allow the local stakeholders (eugh) to stump up the funds for the infrastructure that needs investment or just accept running the service down? That might keep Burnham/ Rothrham quiet? Not central Government's problem any more, so send all of your ire to the Labour Mayors who dared to ask for improvements and more powers - be careful what you wish for etc etc?

(^^ just my suggestion of how the Government might be thinking - not say I wholly agree, mind ^^)

It says in the article the government are unwilling to commit to funding infrastructure improvements. So what is the point? With no infrastructure improvements it is only going to get worse. Absolute joke.

I'm guessing that (if this happens) it'd be a combination of:

  • Allowing the Government to get away without doing the infrastructure commitments that they'd promised to do as part of the franchise (i.e. they aren't going to get sued by Arriva for not delivering the planned infrastructure
  • Neutralising a key Labour obsession - it's one of the Labour policies that was a lot more popular than the Labour party overall, so might look good for the Tories to take the wind out of their sales (especially if they can show that taking some services back into public ownership isn't the magic bullet that some on the left clamour for)
  • Even if it doesn't happen, it's a nice cheap soundbite that gives the impression that the Government care and are on the side of "hard working commuters", so they get a lot of nice free publicity from it at a time of year when (a) papers have very little serious news and (b) takes some of the heat out of the annual fare rise (which otherwise generates lots of negativity)

Where would the boundary be drawn ? There are plenty of services which cross the pennines eg: Leeds - Blackpool north.

There was some overlap. RRNE had TPE and also had that service, RRNW had Manchester, Liverpool and West Lancashire locals and NorthWest Express (Blackpool, Barrow, Windermere). The split was more based on which depots operated which service.

There were a few quirks. RRNW ran the whole Huddersfield to Wakefield service (an extension of the Manchester - Marsden - Huddersfield stopper) but RRNE ran pretty much the whole service from Sheffield to Dore (since they did the Hope Valley stopper). Generally, if it crossed the Pennines it was RRNE (Newcastle to Carlisle, S&C, Bentham, all Calder Valley including to Blackpool, all of the "fast" Huddersfield to Manchester/ Manchester Airport/ Liverpool services, all of the "fast" Sheffield - Manchester services that weren't part of Central Trains), but there were obviously some that RRNW did (mainly just the stoppers through Marsden and the Hope Valley).

But that was when services were a lot neater and we didn't have these complicated combinations of services (Leeds - Wigan/ Chester) - it'd be much harder to split things up now.

TP North was in RRNE but TP South wasn't, nor was Airport-Blackpool/Cumbria/Scotland. Not that it matters

I could've sworn that the Arriva Trains Northern timetables I have had the South TPE (Manchester-Sheffield-Cleethorpes) line in them.

Yeah, RRNE/ Northern Spirit/ Arriva Trains Northern included the Cleethorpes service - it wasn't part of the same timetable booklet as the "north" one (which included destinations like Sunderland at the time) but it was still part of the same franchise

The TPE services were formally part of the FNW and ATN franchises. They were split off into a separate TPE franchise when FNW & ATN became one franchise.

<pedantic mode> Only RRNE/ NS/ ATN services were branded as Trans Pennine. The bits of RRNE/ FNW that were split off into the new TPE franchise (Manchester Airport - Blackpool/ Barrow/ Windermere) were never branded as trans-pennine - which makes sense given that they didn't cross the pennines. So "TP" was wholly a RRNE/ NS/ATN branding/ livery/ operation - it's just that some of the longer distance "west side" services got merged into that franchise.
 

E100

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I don't think splitting the franchise is the magic bullet to this problem. Investment in infrastructure (platform 15/16) and some additional frontline staff to give some resilience are. There's been a huge increase in services without the corresponding increase in staff and capacity. Granted many sections of lines were not fully utilised but key pinch points were beforehand. It's hardly rocket science.

From my perspective in Newcastle, most Northern services seem to run ok currently (in line with others in the area e.g. LNER, XC and much better than TPE). I'm sure there are issues nearer to Teeside at times but doesn't seem to be endemic as it is around Piccadilly. The only complaint I would give is that I would love some 185's / 195's to replace the 156's but they are certainly passable and reliable so often turn up on time / get you from A to B. I certainly value even a pacer that gives me a seat and gets me from A to B over a 195 that doesn't show up.
 

Mogster

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I don't think splitting the franchise is the magic bullet to this problem. Investment in infrastructure (platform 15/16) and some additional frontline staff to give some resilience are. There's been a huge increase in services without the corresponding increase in staff and capacity. Granted many sections of lines were not fully utilised but key pinch points were beforehand. It's hardly rocket science.
.

Exactly.

Given his love for trams and seemingly seeing them as the solution to Manchester’s public transport problems I’m actually concerned about Burnham’s actions if he’s given overall responsibility for heavy rail as well. I don’t want to see trams extending out to Wigan and Warrington.
 

DarloRich

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Without any investment in infrastructure by central government the issues wont be fixed. This suggestion is simply a way of transferring the problems to the metro mayors with a hope of using this as a weapon to unseat them. If the mayors push back about the hand over of control they will be painted as preventing the issue being fixed. This isn't designed to fix any problems but to deliver more Tory control of the north via winning the Mayoral races.

I don't think splitting the franchise is the magic bullet to this problem. Investment in infrastructure (platform 15/16) and some additional frontline staff to give some resilience are. There's been a huge increase in services without the corresponding increase in staff and capacity. Granted many sections of lines were not fully utilised but key pinch points were beforehand. It's hardly rocket science.

agreed! THe issues around Manchester & Leeds will not be fixed by different stickers on the trains.

Maybe the idea is to keep the (relatively) better "east side" in private hands and dump the (relatively) troublesome "west side" into the underfunded public sector, to allow the local stakeholders (eugh) to stump up the funds for the infrastructure that needs investment or just accept running the service down? That might keep Burnham/ Rothrham quiet? Not central Government's problem any more, so send all of your ire to the Labour Mayors who dared to ask for improvements and more powers - be careful what you wish for etc etc

Agreed - although Houchen the ( shamefully) Tory Tees Valley mayor has been very vocal recently about the poor service form both Northern and TPE. He also wants control of the trains
 
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ainsworth74

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It did, but then it was dire after privatisation. Im not sure what can be gained, apart from another duplicated set of backroom staff and increasing subsidies while reducing efficiencies of scale.

Obviously there would be some duplication but I don't think it would be quite as much as people might think. For one thing Northern already operate two different controls. One based in York ROC in charge of the east side and one in Manchester ROC in charge of the west side.

As I've said for quite a while the franchise is allegedly one outfit but on the ground (and behind the scenes) it very much remains two different operations that just so happen to share branding and some HQ functions...
 

Llama

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Certain decisions can't be made by Manchester Control without first running it by the Duty Control Manager in York.
 

Mathew S

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Given his love for trams and seemingly seeing them as the solution to Manchester’s public transport problems I’m actually concerned about Burnham’s actions if he’s given overall responsibility for heavy rail as well. I don’t want to see trams extending out to Wigan and Warrington.
Agreed, trams to Wigan and Warrington would be a massively retrograde step. I think, though, that TfGM are gradually getting the message on that. Also, I'm not sure Andy Burnham does think that... in fact, I'm pretty certain he doesn't.
 
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GRALISTAIR

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Without any investment in infrastructure by central government the issues wont be fixed. This suggestion is simply a way of transferring the problems to the metro mayors with a hope of using this as a weapon to unseat them. If the mayors push back about the hand over of control they will be painted as preventing the issue being fixed. This isn't designed to fix any problems but to deliver more Tory control of the north via winning the Mayoral races)
Cynical but obviously has elements of truth and plausibility
 

185143

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Latter days on FNW in 2002/3 were pretty dire, with a never-ending industrial dispute, and about 12 months of planned cancellations due to an overtime ban. *Not* getting turfed off at Oxford Rd due to not having a driver was a rare treat.
And that differs from now how exactly?:D
 

ainsworth74

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Certain decisions can't be made by Manchester Control without first running it by the Duty Control Manager in York.

Sure but it has got to be a heck of a lot simpler to bring those decisions "home" to Manchester Control than it would be to establish one from the ground up!
 

Llama

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Oh yes, absolutely, it was just a case of me pointing out that despite two almost identical and fully functioning control depts one still has deference to the other where the 'governor' sits.
 

LNW-GW Joint

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I could've sworn that the Arriva Trains Northern timetables I have had the South TPE (Manchester-Sheffield-Cleethorpes) line in them.

Must be my addled memory. :)
RRNW/NWT also had Manchester-North Wales services via Chester of course, now with TfW.
XC ran Manchester-Scotland.
 
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