Do GWR 800/802s decouple in service and should sets be extended to 9 cars?

[Master29]

Shhh, nothing to see here.

(Nobody mention Cornwall!)

You mentioned it once but got away with it. I still think the omission of certain 9 car services to Penzance is a mistake even though there are more services between Penzance and Plymouth during daylight now. My experience is that some people will still use faster services and not local stops so much, usually at the Plymouth side. I know I have. Yes I know it's this old chestnut again but it still has a valid point despite some members hard wired at opposing it.

 

[coradiafan2000]

I use 2x5 car 800s regularly from London to South Wales, and as a passenger have yet to see any of the alleged benefits. They stay in ten car formations, and there don't seem to be any more services west of Swansea than there were when the HST's were running.

On a related note, over the last couple of months I've noticed much more 9 car 800s running from South Wales to Paddington, and much less 2x5 cars. Is this simply luck or are GWR allocating units differently?

 

[PHILIPE]

I use 2x5 car 800s regularly from London to South Wales, and as a passenger have yet to see any of the alleged benefits. They stay in ten car formations, and there don't seem to be any more services west of Swansea than there were when the HST's were running.

On a related note, over the last couple of months I've noticed much more 9 car 800s running from South Wales to Paddington, and much less 2x5 cars. Is this simply luck or are GWR allocating units differently?

I'm sure there are several services booked with the 9 Car Formations. GWR don't have as much control over them as they should do in an ideal world as they are largely controlled by Hitachi

 

[Clarence Yard]

The original DfT plan had splitting and joining at other locations, such as Swindon and Cardiff, so by operating all the sets to Swansea as 9 or 10 car, you are not seeing the original plan in action, which also didn’t have any extra trains west of Swansea.

The Swansea services should be, in the main, 9 car cl.800 sets with a minority as 10 car cl.800. GWR changed some of the stock workings at the December timetable change date but I suspect any variation you saw in the previous two months had more to do with availability on the day.

 

[coradiafan2000]

The original DfT plan had splitting and joining at other locations, such as Swindon and Cardiff, so by operating all the sets to Swansea as 9 or 10 car, you are not seeing the original plan in action, which also didn’t have any extra trains west of Swansea.

The Swansea services should be, in the main, 9 car cl.800 sets with a minority as 10 car cl.800. GWR changed some of the stock workings at the December timetable change date but I suspect any variation you saw in the previous two months had more to do with availability on the day.

When the 800s first started running to Cardiff they were about 80% 2x5 car sets, with the minority being 9 cars. Nowadays it seems to be the other way around, which I'm curious about.

Forgive me if I'm being slow or if I've missed something, but why hasn't the original DfT plan been put into action yet?

 

[JN114]

Forgive me if I'm being slow or if I've missed something, but why hasn't the original DfT plan been put into action yet?

Because it was ridiculous and unworkable.

 

[coradiafan2000]

Because it was ridiculous and unworkable.

Ah. Standard for the DfT then.

 

[Clarence Yard]

The reason why the 10 cars first worked to South Wales is simple. The then existing HST diagrams were converted in their entirety and it was the Bristol/South Wales workings that got converted first as 2 x 5 cars replacing each HST diagram.

The idea being that if anything went bang, you could easily put an HST back in.

The 9 cars came from Hitachi much later on.

 

[cactustwirly]

The reason why the 10 cars first worked to South Wales is simple. The then existing HST diagrams were converted in their entirety and it was the Bristol/South Wales workings that got converted first as 2 x 5 cars replacing each HST diagram.

The idea being that if anything went bang, you could easily put an HST back in.

The 9 cars came from Hitachi much later on.

What diagrams are now worked by 2x5 sets then?

 

[irish_rail]

The original DfT plan had splitting and joining at other locations, such as Swindon and Cardiff, so by operating all the sets to Swansea as 9 or 10 car, you are not seeing the original plan in action, which also didn’t have any extra trains west of Swansea.

The Swansea services should be, in the main, 9 car cl.800 sets with a minority as 10 car cl.800. GWR changed some of the stock workings at the December timetable change date but I suspect any variation you saw in the previous two months had more to do with availability on the day.

Yet this involves carrying round fresh air between Cardiff and Swansea on 9 car trains for much of the day. How are 9 cars justified to swansea and yet not through Cornwall?

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Yet this involves carrying round fresh air between Cardiff and Swansea on 9 car trains for much of the day. How are 9 cars justified to swansea and yet not through Cornwall?

Because Cornwall to Plymouth has had a massive DfT funded frequency increase with 158s/Castle HSTs as has been said many times before this was only funded on the basis London services would largely be 5 cars. West of Cardiff maintains the same frequency as it has done for many years.

 

[Master29]

Because Cornwall to Plymouth has had a massive DfT funded frequency increase with 158s/Castle HSTs as has been said many times before this was only funded on the basis London services would largely be 5 cars. West of Cardiff maintains the same frequency as it has done for many years.

Agreed but I can't help but wonder if people are going to use IET services that don't call at the many stops before Plymouth. I know I will. Whilst I can agree splitting and forming 2x5 services at Plymouth works alright outside busy periods which are much less frequent nowadays it's going to be a problem at other times with only a 5 car set.

 

[Energy]

In my opinion the splitting seems dumb, we went from HSTs going all the way to some 9 car IETs going all the way and the 2 x 5 cars splitting to be only 5 cars.

 

[Mugby]

It's often the case that when two sets are coupled together and have no connection between them (not just GWR 800s but any such sets) one is rammed to the luggage racks and the other is quite lightly loaded.

In the few instances when some passengers actually cotton on to this, it adds to dwell times and causes delays with people running along the platform with luggage - and even sometimes back again, trying to decide which set to board.

 

[coradiafan2000]

In my opinion the splitting seems dumb, we went from HSTs going all the way to some 9 car IETs going all the way and the 2 x 5 cars splitting to be only 5 cars.

That's more or less how I feel on the matter. If they aren't gonna do all these fancy splits and extra services then there is no point. I'm skeptical that LNER will follow through with their similar plans.

On a related note, why the heck have EMR decided to order five car units? Especially if they say most of the time they'll run as ten cars? Just make them that to begin with! Do they plan on running additional services beyond Sheffield or Nottingham? As far as I can tell the only changes they're making to the franchise are the calling patterns and the Corby services, which the 80xs won't be working.

 

[coradiafan2000]

It's often the case that when two sets are coupled together and have no connection between them (not just GWR 800s but any such sets) one is rammed to the luggage racks and the other is quite lightly loaded.

In the few instances when some passengers actually cotton on to this, it adds to dwell times and causes delays with people running along the platform with luggage - and even sometimes back again, trying to decide which set to board.

That's true. Lost count of the amount of times I've had the front coach of a 2x5 car set leaving Paddington to myself, only for the conductor to say that the rear set is packed. I feel both smug and guilty about it!

 

[greatvoyager]

Remember that the 9-car 800s were originally 801s, so they wouldn't have been seen much on the West of England services anyway. 802s were ordered by GWR and not DfT.

 

[greatvoyager]

That's true. Lost count of the amount of times I've had the front coach of a 2x5 car set leaving Paddington to myself, only for the conductor to say that the rear set is packed. I feel both smug and guilty about it!

People need to try spreading out more then.

 

[coradiafan2000]

People need to try spreading out more then.

To be fair that applies to all trains, not just 800s.

 

[irish_rail]

People need to try spreading out more then.

Unfortunately most travellers on the London to Penzance route are infrequent travellers and do not realise the two trains are not connected. The 5 car thing running in pairs is a disaster. A shambles. But we are stuck with it, and somehow I don't see any money forthcoming to extend some 5 sets up to 9s, so we will just have to muddle on through and hope that not too many passengers are put off by the poor journey experience that is GWR in 2019 and on into 2020.
The fact that EMR and Avanti have ordered 5 car sets rather proves it is the lunatics (dft) running the asylum.......

 

[Energy]

The fact that EMR and Avanti have ordered 5 car sets rather proves it is the lunatics (dft) running the asylum.......

Avanti ordered 5 cars as the voyagers already split at Chester, some of the Hitachi units which aren't splitting for Welsh services are 7 cars anyway.

EMR is stupid though, they said they will almost always work in pairs which bring she question of why not order 9 car sets so they are always together.

 

[squizzler]

I would have thought that the best way to resolve the sub optimal distribution between 5 and 9 car units might be for DfT to negotiate the purchase of a number of 9 car straight electrics to swap with Agility Train's 5 car bi-modes on a one-for-one basis. This observer thinks that Agility should be game since a 9 car electric is probably comparable in terms of running expenses to a short bi-mode. The 5 car bi-modes that the DFT would be saddled with after such a deal could be sent to the XC franchise for crowd busting duties. Or maybe they could become the new Avanti bi-mode fleet?

We would also want to electrify to Swansea to get the most out of the straight electrics that my plan calls for!

 

[FGW_DID]

EMR is stupid though, they said they will almost always work in pairs which bring she question of why not order 9 car sets so they are always together

Almost always isn’t always.

 

[Mitchell Hurd]

Is it true that there were some issues with the decoupling process?
Im sure I recall that GWR were stopped from decoupling trains at Temple Meads for some reason or other

Crumbs, if decoupling at Bristol Temple Meads is an issue then what does that mean for the 09:41 from Didcot Parkway to Exeter St. David's on the 02/01/20? I'm told it splits.

I suppose, however, that at least there's a XC train around 10:45 from Bristol Temple Meads to Exeter if the 09:41 has to terminate there. That's if ticket acceptance will be in place.

 

[greatvoyager]

Avanti ordered 5 cars as the voyagers already split at Chester, some of the Hitachi units which aren't splitting for Welsh services are 7 cars anyway.

EMR is stupid though, they said they will almost always work in pairs which bring she question of why not order 9 car sets so they are always together.

Running pairs of 5-car units has the advantage of providing flexibility as if one of the units develops a problem, it can be uncoupled and the other unit can continue the journey, whereas a failure on a 9-car unit affects the whole train and results in the service being cancelled or severely delayed if another unit can be sourced to work the service.

 

[greatvoyager]

To be fair that applies to all trains, not just 800s.

Why don't people look through the windows as the train comes I to the platform and got on the coach that looks the least crowded?

 

[Bletchleyite]

That's true. Lost count of the amount of times I've had the front coach of a 2x5 car set leaving Paddington to myself, only for the conductor to say that the rear set is packed. I feel both smug and guilty about it!

That happens even with gangways on LNR 12-car services. People are just lazy. They prefer to moan than walk 200m.

 

[greatvoyager]

Unfortunately most travellers on the London to Penzance route are infrequent travellers and do not realise the two trains are not connected. The 5 car thing running in pairs is a disaster. A shambles. But we are stuck with it, and somehow I don't see any money forthcoming to extend some 5 sets up to 9s, so we will just have to muddle on through and hope that not too many passengers are put off by the poor journey experience that is GWR in 2019 and on into 2020.
The fact that EMR and Avanti have ordered 5 car sets rather proves it is the lunatics (dft) running the asylum.......

I would imagine cost probably has something to do with it.
Perhaps if on the announcement at stations it says "this service is formed of 2 5-coach trains, which have no access between each other" (or something more simple) Than people could be alerted to the fact they can't walk all the way through the train.
Also, how does capacity compare on a 9-car to 2x 5-car?

 

[greatvoyager]

That happens even with gangways on LNR 12-car services. People are just lazy. They prefer to moan than walk 200m.

I think a bigger deal is being made about the lack of through gangways than is necessary, considering that anyone can see from the outside that the part of the train where the units are coupled means they are separate.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think a bigger deal is being made about the lack of through gangways than is necessary, considering that anyone can see from the outside that the part of the train where the units are coupled means they are separate.

They cause operational issues particularly with regard to revenue protection and catering, and issues for passengers by the absence thereof. Also access to toilets if they are unreliable.

If, however, you double staff double sets as Virgin (unlike GWR) managed to consistently do and the toilets are maintained properly, it's no great issue for the passenger, indeed it's arguably less of one as the guard/trolley will be along sooner/the buffet is less of a walk.