Cross-Country: suggestions to improve things in the short term

[RealTrains07]

Moderator note: split from https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...tion-2018-what-happened-to-the-results.197736

Thanks for posting the link to the Transport Focus response - full of very sensible arguments. In particular, let's hope the decision making powers listen to what we all know is the obvious:

"Transport Focus believes that crowding must first and foremost be solved by introducing extra carriages and additional trains. This should be the starting point when dealing with crowding and explored as a priority option before station stops are removed from Cross Country services or routes are curtailed. Providing additional capacity is the only way to ensure the root cause of crowding on this franchise- too few and too short trains - is addressed."

Which hopefully will be easier said then done when avanti let go of the voyagers and even EMR 222s would be beneficial??

 

[Jozhua]

Yeah, this direct award business is very frustrating considering the overcrowding has needed resolving for the past five years and a solution is not yet here.

Obviously a quick and sensible fix would be to snap up some HSTs and fit them with power doors and acessable interiors. Currently HSTs make up 4% of XC route miles. Perhaps making Plymouth - Edinburgh entirely HST and then doubling up Voyagers on other routes could tide things by.

Even the fastest non HST solution would involve waiting for more Voyagers to free up courtesy of Avanti WC, but that is still a good 3/4 years down the line. New trains for XC, even if ordered now, would probably take a good four years to arrive.

EMR's Angel HSTs may not be the shiniest and need quite a bit of work to get them up to scratch, but not impossible. If they shove in some pre-fab potties and do the power door job they should be fine. For what would likely end up being another 5 years of use at minimum, it would definitely be worth it!

 

[johnnychips]

Yeah, this direct award business is very frustrating considering the overcrowding has needed resolving for the past five years and a solution is not yet here.

Obviously a quick and sensible fix would be to snap up some HSTs and fit them with power doors and acessable interiors. Currently HSTs make up 4% of XC route miles. Perhaps making Plymouth - Edinburgh entirely HST and then doubling up Voyagers on other routes could tide things by.

Even the fastest non HST solution would involve waiting for more Voyagers to free up courtesy of Avanti WC, but that is still a good 3/4 years down the line. New trains for XC, even if ordered now, would probably take a good four years to arrive.

EMR's Angel HSTs may not be the shiniest and need quite a bit of work to get them up to scratch, but not impossible. If they shove in some pre-fab potties and do the power door job they should be fine. For what would likely end up being another 5 years of use at minimum, it would definitely be worth it!

Firstly, HSTs are not as fast as Voyagers so the timetables will need much rearranging; and secondly, have you seen how slow Wabtec are turning refurbishment units out, despite their best efforts.

 

[Ianno87]

Interestingly the consultation found that journey times were not a main priority of the cross country passengers. Over crowding and the ability to get a seat were much bigger concerns.

Being able to actually path the train is, funnily enough, quite important.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Obviously a quick and sensible fix would be to snap up some HSTs and fit them with power doors and acessable interiors.

A quick fix? Have you been keeping tabs on how slow Wabtec have been at turning out overhauled HSTs....

 

[yorksrob]

Being able to actually path the train is, funnily enough, quite important.

This argument always seems like a large red herring to me. Given that train timetables tend to work in regular patterns, it stands to reason that if some diagrams are slotted in at a slower speed, others can be too.

 

[greatvoyager]

A quick fix? Have you been keeping tabs on how slow Wabtec have been at turning out overhauled HSTs....

That was my thinking, even if they could get additional HSTs, they wouldn't be able to use them until they have been updated which, let's face it, could take longer than simply waiting for more voyagers, or even adding meridians to the fleet.

 

[swt_passenger]

More HSTs check.
More 221/222s check.
All we need now is to mention Brighton, Liverpool, Cardiff and we’ll have a full house for XC BINGO.

Please, can we try and avoid repeating all the usual stuff that appeared in a dozen threads last year?

 

[yorksrob]

I'm afraid the usual things will continue to crop up because they are the sensible course of action. You cannot ignore the elephant in the room !

 

[HamworthyGoods]

I'm afraid the usual things will continue to crop up because they are the sensible course of action. You cannot ignore the elephant in the room !

I think with the delays to Scotrail and XC HST overhauls/conversions the rail industry has certainly realised further HSTs are not a sensible course of action!

 

[yorksrob]

I think with the delays to Scotrail and XC HST overhauls/conversions the rail industry has certainly realised further HSTs are not a sensible course of action!

To the lawyers and lobby groups yes, not so to passengers for whom the whole current situation is not sensible.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

To the lawyers and lobby groups yes, not so to passengers for whom the whole current situation is not sensible.

Which passengers, presumably you aren’t including the less able in that?

The point being made by the time and expense of converting them to comply with current standards for accessibility there wouldn’t be much time difference in waiting for cascaded compliant stock.

The rail industry has had enough of a kicking by not having enough accessible stock ready in time without introducing further non-compliant vehicles. It’s not like HST vehicles can be paired up with complaint vehicles such as the 143+150 combinations GWR are running.

I would hope you aren’t proposing replacing a voyager with and unrefurbished HST, how is this progress for our less able passengers which the industry is striving (and by law) to be more accommodating for?

If that is the case, how do you propose handling the passengers who require an accessible toilet for example, without which the journey they have previously been able to make no longer is a viable option?

We have chosen as a society to embrace and help those passengers no longer just throw out any old rail vehicle (or indeed bus) and hope those people will stay at home or find a different way of getting there.

 

[hwl]

Which passengers, presumably you aren’t including the less able in that?

The point being made by the time and expense of converting them to comply with current standards for accessibility there wouldn’t be much time difference in waiting for cascaded compliant stock.

The rail industry has had enough of a kicking by not having enough accessible stock ready in time without introducing further non-compliant vehicles. It’s not like HST vehicles can be paired up with complaint vehicles such as the 143+150 combinations GWR are running.

I would hope you aren’t proposing replacing a voyager with and unrefurbished HST, how is this progress for our less able passengers which the industry is striving (and by law) to be more accommodating for?

The HST option is better for air quality though. Voyagers /QSK19s and New Street /Waverley are a big headache for AQ.

 

[yorksrob]

Which passengers, presumably you aren’t including the less able in that?

The point being made by the time and expense of converting them to comply with current standards for accessibility there wouldn’t be much time difference in waiting for cascaded compliant stock.

The rail industry has had enough of a kicking by not having enough accessible stock ready in time without introducing further non-compliant vehicles. It’s not like HST vehicles can be paired up with complaint vehicles such as the 143+150 combinations GWR are running.

I would hope you aren’t proposing replacing a voyager with and unrefurbished HST, how is this progress for our less able passengers which the industry is striving (and by law) to be more accommodating for?

If that is the case, how do you propose handling the passengers who require an accessible toilet for example, without which the journey they have previously been able to make no longer is a viable option?

We have chosen as a society to embrace and help those passengers no longer just throw out any old rail vehicle (or indeed bus) and hope those people will stay at home or find a different way of getting there.

I am including the less able because overcrowding will have a greater impact on them.

All HST's have an accessible toilet, and certainly the space to install one of the modular examples, all HST's require staff, who can provide assistance to those that need it.

Anyone who has difficulty using an HST will certainly be put off using regularly overcrowded services.

 

[greatvoyager]

I am including the less able because overcrowding will have a greater impact on them.

All HST's have an accessible toilet, and certainly the space to install one of the modular examples, all HST's require staff, who can provide assistance to those that need it.

Anyone who has difficulty using an HST will certainly be put off using regularly overcrowded services.

Do the ex EMR sets have an accessible toilet?
I would say that the franchise needs some sort of overhaul, as from what's being said, if it stays the same, it would probably be a direct award again.

 

[XC victim]

More HSTs check.
More 221/222s check.
All we need now is to mention Brighton, Liverpool, Cardiff and we’ll have a full house for XC BINGO.

Please, can we try and avoid repeating all the usual stuff that appeared in a dozen threads last year?

The problem is that with Crosscountry franchise there has been almost no change since 2007 and absolutely no prospect of any improvements for several years at least.

The problems on the the CrossCountry network are very real (no one has ever argued that 4 coach services on services between the biggest cities and populations is acceptable), and the solutions to these problems are very simple but due to the stagnant nature of this franchise nothing is ever done.

virtually every other franchise in this country has seen improvements or at least promised improvements, so please let the unfortunate victims of the XC services at least a few meagre posts on these forums to vent their frustrations

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Do the ex EMR sets have an accessible toilet?
I would say that the franchise needs some sort of overhaul, as from what's being said, if it stays the same, it would probably be a direct award again.

The EMR sets have a vaguely accessible toilet which was a very early design and is nowhere near a like for like replacement for the complainant facilities on voyagers.

EMR HSTs also if they were to stay in traffic require a complete re-glazing they still have the old style windows and that’s before we even start on slam doors which are far from accessible to many people and viewed by many including railway regulators as dangerous.

It’s a non-starter.

 

[greatvoyager]

The EMR sets have a vaguely accessible toilet which was a very early design and is nowhere near a like for like replacement for the complainant facilities on voyagers.

EMR HSTs also if they were to stay in traffic require a complete re-glazing they still have the old style windows and that’s before we even start on slam doors which are far from accessible to many people and viewed by many including railway regulators as dangerous.

It’s a non-starter.

That's what I thought... HSTs aren't even able to provide a short term solution.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

That's what I thought... HSTs aren't even able to provide a short term solution.

Un-modified HSTs aren’t a short term solution anymore, modified HSTs are a long term solution but there’s likely to be more realistic longer term solutions available.

Much as the mk3s are liked by many it’s just not economical to pump that amount of money into 45 year old vehicles.

 

[greatvoyager]

Un-modified HSTs aren’t a short term solution anymore, modified HSTs are a long term solution but there’s likely to be more realistic longer term solutions available.

Much as the mk3s are liked by many it’s just not economical to pump that amount of money into 45 year old vehicles.

Considering also how small the XC HST fleet is, I find it difficult to see their modified sets being around more than about 5 more years.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

XC doesn't fit any of the geographic models which are all the rage at the moment (eg NR's new Regions/Routes).
I'm sure DfT put off the franchise renewal to see what cropped up in the Williams recommendations, before deciding its future.
In the meantime, the dominos have fallen along its routes with LNER, EMR, Avanti, GWR and even TPE having priority to develop their local and regional plans.
It looks like there will be plenty of class 22x trains from EMR and Avanti to bolster XC services from 2022.
I could see XC being merged into the EMR operation (as it was for a time under BR), or the service being jointly operated by LNER/GWR from each end.

 

[Class 170101]

or the service being jointly operated by LNER/GWR from each end.

I can't see that happening either in its current form. How would South Coast and Manchester services fit? Neither operator having experience to run said sections.

 

[yorksrob]

Do the ex EMR sets have an accessible toilet?
I would say that the franchise needs some sort of overhaul, as from what's being said, if it stays the same, it would probably be a direct award again.

They do to the standard of ten years ago. It's a large toilet with automatic door controls but not to current standards. Easily room for a modern module though.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

They do to the standard of ten years ago. It's a large toilet with automatic door controls but not to current standards. Easily room for a modern module though.

And what about the slam doors which are far from accessible and also no longer acceptable to the industry regulator?

 

[greatvoyager]

And what about the slam doors which are far from accessible and also no longer acceptable to the industry regulator?

I agree, they are not suitable for people with disabilities, and there won't always be someone on hand to open the doors.

 

[greatvoyager]

…"in its present form...".

XC doesn't fit any of the geographic models which are all the rage at the moment (eg NR's new Regions/Routes).
I'm sure DfT put off the franchise renewal to see what cropped up in the Williams recommendations, before deciding its future.
In the meantime, the dominos have fallen along its routes with LNER, EMR, Avanti, GWR and even TPE having priority to develop their local and regional plans.
It looks like there will be plenty of class 22x trains from EMR and Avanti to bolster XC services from 2022.
I could see XC being merged into the EMR operation (as it was for a time under BR), or the service being jointly operated by LNER/GWR from each end.

I can the 22x trains transferring across as a minimum for a capacity increase, but would merging it be that easy? Surely the better option would be to split the 170 operated routes off and allow XC to focus on the long distance services.

 

[greatvoyager]

Yeah, this direct award business is very frustrating considering the overcrowding has needed resolving for the past five years and a solution is not yet here.

Obviously a quick and sensible fix would be to snap up some HSTs and fit them with power doors and acessable interiors. Currently HSTs make up 4% of XC route miles. Perhaps making Plymouth - Edinburgh entirely HST and then doubling up Voyagers on other routes could tide things by.

Even the fastest non HST solution would involve waiting for more Voyagers to free up courtesy of Avanti WC, but that is still a good 3/4 years down the line. New trains for XC, even if ordered now, would probably take a good four years to arrive.

EMR's Angel HSTs may not be the shiniest and need quite a bit of work to get them up to scratch, but not impossible. If they shove in some pre-fab potties and do the power door job they should be fine. For what would likely end up being another 5 years of use at minimum, it would definitely be worth it!

The problem is, XC have 5 HSTs already and it's taken nearly 3 years to get them converted to that standard. That means that, using this timeline, in 2022, when more 22x units would be available, only another 5 would be able to be converted.
I also doubt they would be allowed to use slam door stock, as all other operators coverting them already had the vehicles in question in their fleets before 1st January 2020.

 

[yorksrob]

And what about the slam doors which are far from accessible and also no longer acceptable to the industry regulator?

There is always someone on board to assist people (as I mentioned in a previous post). As long as people can travel, that is what counts.

 

[greatvoyager]

There is always someone on board to assist people (as I mentioned in a previous post). As long as people can travel, that is what counts.

Does the fact that the windows on these doors have to be pulled down to open the slam doors (and that these are sometimes left open and can be hazardous to those with a lack of common sense), go against any of the PRM regulations too?

 

[yorksrob]

Does the fact that the windows on these doors have to be pulled down to open the slam doors (and that these are sometimes left open and can be hazardous to those with a lack of common sense), go against any of the PRM regulations too?

Absolutely meaningless. If there is someone available to assist with opening the doors, which there is on InterCity trains, the problem is alleviated.

Droplights are hazardous to those without common sense, along with everything else on planet earth. I don't see the problem.