Southeastern Franchise: Extension granted for minimum 18 months

[4-SUB 4732]

That was the thinking but over the past decade planned (and current) housing has meant there can be no reduction in capacity or paths on the Woolwich line if that was the plan. Charlton will now see 10,000 homes, That's up hugely from planned numbers a decade ago. Greenwich homes has doubled to 20,000+ and not all will use the Jubilee. Deptford is similar.

Then there's getting all those people from Kent (and the 20,000 homes Bexley plan and then many thousands more in Dartford) to Abbey Wood from the east.

I'm very dubious many using other Dartford lines within London will switch to crossrail. Any time advantage from Abbey Wood compared to taking a train from Bexleyheath or Welling to Lewisham then DLR to Canary Wharf (or train to the City) is lost by needing to take a bus to Abbey Wood. Why do it? As a long term resident it makes no sense to me. As for the Sidcup line that's even more unlikely.

Crossrail will only directly benefit the Woolwich line, but as stated many new homes past Woolwich in Charlton, Greenwich and Deptford mean no capacity reduction is possible mid term.

I'm not sure the DfT realise this when planning the franchise.

I live in Bexleyheath and soon it will be extremely tempting to use the 301 'fast' bus to Abbey Wood.

At the moment, the time taken from Barnehurst to London Bridge is 30 minutes, with around a 25 minute transfer (including escalators up and down at each end and a quick cross-platform swap at Baker Street) for me to Paddington and then 15 minutes to Heathrow T1/2/3. That's 70 minutes.

According to Crossrail's site, it will be 51 minutes from Abbey Wood to Heathrow T1/2/3, and even with a splash of extra time making sure I get a bus, add some wait at Abbey Wood we're talking about 75 minutes. The one positive is if I'm a bit older or infirm I've got one change and step-free access to the bus, at Abbey Wood, a direct journey to sit back and relax and such.

Apply similar logic to people who live in the areas around West Heath, Brampton, Crook Log, Pantiles etc. and people will consider the fast journey times and convenience of Crossrail from Abbey Wood to Canary Wharf (very short journey times), for the East (Whitechapel etc.), Liverpool Street and the West End and it will be better than sitting on a train through Kidbrooke and Lewisham (people will think about changing their journey because the likelihood of a seat will be pretty rubbish for a 30-38 minute journey on the way home with all that Kidbrooke and Lewisham lot) and you'll see a reasonable modal shift. People from Dartford and Gravesend may even change their journeys, and High Speed may have a small net loss from Medway and Gravesend as people go to Abbey Wood and towards places like Docklands, City and Farringdon as High Speed won't quite have the edge any more, which is good for Ebbsfleet passengers who will have some extra capacity...

 

[4-SUB 4732]

Ultimately you still have many Networkers on Metro routes limiting 12-car running unless they have SDO installed - and apparently that's a lot of hassle. Plus numerous cab ends taking up space. Crossrail is not going to alleviate much of the metro network so that 12-car need is there over next few years.

At least with captive diagrams, you can use a plethora of 12 carriage formations on the Sidcup, Grove Park and Bexleyheath lines. In theory, all services on the three routes should be fine for it. That's better than what's going on now.

 

[brad465]

- Move the Southeastern 375/3s to Southern [Net SE minus 30 vehicles, Southern plus 130 vehicles cumulative]

This would be a reasonably quick methodology at least, with the 10 375/3s replaced with an equivalent 10 387s, but the 387s more likely to work on routes such as Maidstone East and Tunbridge Wells; getting rid of any remaining 465 work on the Main Lines and what not. You then can use the 707s for Metro work (Woolwich, Hayes) and then take some Networkers out for overhaul to allow them to be fixed up properly and then run in 8s (Victoria to Dartford), 10s and as many 12s as possible.

What's going to replace 375/3s on the Medway valley line and Sheerness branches in this case, of which 3 and 2 sets respectively are needed? I don't believe 465s are allowed to run passengers on the MV line on current safety measures, and 466s are now not allowed to do single set workings on either branch anymore.

 

[hkstudent]

That was the thinking but over the past decade planned (and current) housing has meant there can be no reduction in capacity or paths on the Woolwich line if that was the plan. Charlton will now see 10,000 homes, That's up hugely from planned numbers a decade ago. Greenwich homes has doubled to 20,000+ and not all will use the Jubilee. Deptford is similar.

Then there's getting all those people from Kent (and the 20,000 homes Bexley plan and then many thousands more in Dartford) to Abbey Wood from the east.

I'm very dubious many using other Dartford lines within London will switch to crossrail. Any time advantage from Abbey Wood compared to taking a train from Bexleyheath or Welling to Lewisham then DLR to Canary Wharf (or train to the City) is lost by needing to take a bus to Abbey Wood. Why do it? As a long term resident it makes no sense to me. Buses are much less reliable. From Welling there isn't even a direct bus. Bexleyheath buses get stuck at roundabout on Brampton Road queues too often. Kidbrooke and Eltham = no chance. As for the Sidcup line that's even more unlikely.

Crossrail will only directly benefit the Woolwich line, but as stated many new homes past Woolwich in Charlton, Greenwich and Deptford mean no capacity reduction is possible mid term.

I'm not sure the DfT realise this when planning the franchise.

Yeah, what I meant is, taking passengers from North Kent Line who head to Central London.
Of course, I also don't think there will be a high proportion of passengers moved from Bexleyheath Line to Elizabeth Line except those living along Okehampton Crescent and Long Lane which Bus 301 and Bus B11 is fast and direct to Abbey Wood Station. Taking buses to Abbey Wood would save 1 zone in travel cost. I am now deeply concerned about the crowdedness in train at morning peak after the full completion of Kidbrooke Village.

I live in Bexleyheath and soon it will be extremely tempting to use the 301 'fast' bus to Abbey Wood.

At the moment, the time taken from Barnehurst to London Bridge is 30 minutes, with around a 25 minute transfer (including escalators up and down at each end and a quick cross-platform swap at Baker Street) for me to Paddington and then 15 minutes to Heathrow T1/2/3. That's 70 minutes.

According to Crossrail's site, it will be 51 minutes from Abbey Wood to Heathrow T1/2/3, and even with a splash of extra time making sure I get a bus, add some wait at Abbey Wood we're talking about 75 minutes. The one positive is if I'm a bit older or infirm I've got one change and step-free access to the bus, at Abbey Wood, a direct journey to sit back and relax and such.

Apply similar logic to people who live in the areas around West Heath, Brampton, Crook Log, Pantiles etc. and people will consider the fast journey times and convenience of Crossrail from Abbey Wood to Canary Wharf (very short journey times), for the East (Whitechapel etc.), Liverpool Street and the West End and it will be better than sitting on a train through Kidbrooke and Lewisham (people will think about changing their journey because the likelihood of a seat will be pretty rubbish for a 30-38 minute journey on the way home with all that Kidbrooke and Lewisham lot) and you'll see a reasonable modal shift. People from Dartford and Gravesend may even change their journeys, and High Speed may have a small net loss from Medway and Gravesend as people go to Abbey Wood and towards places like Docklands, City and Farringdon as High Speed won't quite have the edge any more, which is good for Ebbsfleet passengers who will have some extra capacity...

it's a bit of shame that Bus 301 couldn't run on Knee Hill due to road width and turning issues which would cut the journey time further by 5 minutes.

 

[bramling]

Only by 1-3 years. The variation on interior standard must be down to 465s operating in areas more prone to anti-social behaviour. Have the 365s been less intensively used than 465s perhaps?

Not really, the 365s were being utterly thrashed up until the last couple of years, with very high availability and mileage. There work was less metro in nature than the 465s - a mixture of express workings to Kings Lynn and outer suburban to Cambridge and Peterborough. They have never done the all-stations intensive metro work the 465s have.

I suspect the situation with the 365s is a combination of them possibly benefiting from lessons learned with the 465s upon construction, better care having been taken of them since, and less metro work.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

it's a bit of shame that Bus 301 couldn't run on Knee Hill due to road width and turning issues which would cut the journey time further by 5 minutes.

5 minutes? I'd say, nearer 2 minutes. Going up New Road is pretty fast and doesn't really go that far out of the way.

(As an aside, the added bonus of New Road is you serve a fair bit more population en route. Even if Knee Hill had been suitable for buses, I'd have thought using that as a route would have been a bad idea anyway, as it would prevent the bus from calling at the stop outside the community centre - a stop that's well used and more convenient than the station to walk to for quite a lot of people around Abbey Wood, and also prevent it from properly serving the fair number of houses and flats near the top of New Road. That seems to me too great a loss for a saving of a couple of minutes a best.).

 

[4-SUB 4732]

What's going to replace 375/3s on the Medway valley line and Sheerness branches in this case, of which 3 and 2 sets respectively are needed? I don't believe 465s are allowed to run passengers on the MV line on current safety measures, and 466s are now not allowed to do single set workings on either branch anymore.

Two options: legacy 375s (all depots required to operate the lines sign them) for Sheerness and Medway; or a 4-car 465 on Bromley North. With the uplift in capacity created with 707s on Metro and 387s on Maidstone E / Tunbridge Wells (etc) you can afford to let a 465 out on the Bromley North.

 

[4-SUB 4732]

Yeah, what I meant is, taking passengers from North Kent Line who head to Central London.
Of course, I also don't think there will be a high proportion of passengers moved from Bexleyheath Line to Elizabeth Line except those living along Okehampton Crescent and Long Lane which Bus 301 and Bus B11 is fast and direct to Abbey Wood Station. Taking buses to Abbey Wood would save 1 zone in travel cost. I am now deeply concerned about the crowdedness in train at morning peak after the full completion of Kidbrooke Village.


it's a bit of shame that Bus 301 couldn't run on Knee Hill due to road width and turning issues which would cut the journey time further by 5 minutes.

Agreed it’s probably only a 2 minute saving. New Road also removes the traffic on Knee Hill. If anything route the B11 via Knee Hill to save customers from Bostall a couple of minutes now the 301 links New Road to Bexleyheath and Abbey Wood.

 

[4-SUB 4732]

Not really, the 365s were being utterly thrashed up until the last couple of years, with very high availability and mileage. There work was less metro in nature than the 465s - a mixture of express workings to Kings Lynn and outer suburban to Cambridge and Peterborough. They have never done the all-stations intensive metro work the 465s have.

I suspect the situation with the 365s is a combination of them possibly benefiting from lessons learned with the 465s upon construction, better care having been taken of them since, and less metro work.

Considering I’ve had them on Victoria <> Dartford I think it’s fair to say they have done Metro work

 

[brad465]

Two options: legacy 375s (all depots required to operate the lines sign them) for Sheerness and Medway; or a 4-car 465 on Bromley North. With the uplift in capacity created with 707s on Metro and 387s on Maidstone E / Tunbridge Wells (etc) you can afford to let a 465 out on the Bromley North.

I believe the plan is for the latter branch to be 465 run once a safety issue is resolved preventing anything other than 466s using it. While Tun Wells has plenty of 465 allocations, the 377 arrivals as you know are focused almost entirely on the Maidstone East line, to the point that only 2-3 evening peak works are 465 operated, so not much will be freed up there for wider Metro capacity boost.

 

[4-SUB 4732]

I believe the plan is for the latter branch to be 465 run once a safety issue is resolved preventing anything other than 466s using it. While Tun Wells has plenty of 465 allocations, the 377 arrivals as you know are focused almost entirely on the Maidstone East line, to the point that only 2-3 evening peak works are 465 operated, so not much will be freed up there for wider Metro capacity boost.

But there is still a reasonable number of 465s doing Tunbridge Wells. As for 465s on Bromley North, I don't believe anything is explicitly stopping them; but the 466s are double-manned anyway at peak with some trains non-stopping Sundridge Park just to try and save 90-120 seconds and get even more trains in!

Reality is potentially the Branch will need either to go two-unit or something else equally nonsensical. Christ, two years ago they even spoke about D78 Stock doing things either electric or as Cl.230 diesels just to free up 'normal' stock and just put some old tat on the Bromley North.

 

[hkstudent]

Agreed it’s probably only a 2 minute saving. New Road also removes the traffic on Knee Hill. If anything route the B11 via Knee Hill to save customers from Bostall a couple of minutes now the 301 links New Road to Bexleyheath and Abbey Wood.

I would doubt it to some degree. It would be difficult for bus to pull out from New Road to Woolwich Road for Bexleyheath bound service as it is a giveaway junction. Also, for Abbey Wood bound service, it would be difficult to turn right at Brampton Road / Woolwich Junction as there are so many cars from southbound traffic from Knee Hill.

And, there seems to be a rise of complaints from New Road residents regarding to bus traffic noise.

But there is still a reasonable number of 465s doing Tunbridge Wells. As for 465s on Bromley North, I don't believe anything is explicitly stopping them; but the 466s are double-manned anyway at peak with some trains non-stopping Sundridge Park just to try and save 90-120 seconds and get even more trains in!

Reality is potentially the Branch will need either to go two-unit or something else equally nonsensical. Christ, two years ago they even spoke about D78 Stock doing things either electric or as Cl.230 diesels just to free up 'normal' stock and just put some old tat on the Bromley North.

yeah, though Tunbridge Wells wishes to get rid of Class 465 with trains with a better seating arrangement.

 

[brad465]

yeah, though Tunbridge Wells wishes to get rid of Class 465 with trains with a better seating arrangement.

I know this isn't always possible for the sake of demand, but if you don't like 465s for that reason, just get a Hastings train, which are all 375s.

 

[4-SUB 4732]

I would doubt it to some degree. It would be difficult for bus to pull out from New Road to Woolwich Road for Bexleyheath bound service as it is a giveaway junction. Also, for Abbey Wood bound service, it would be difficult to turn right at Brampton Road / Woolwich Junction as there are so many cars from southbound traffic from Knee Hill.

And, there seems to be a rise of complaints from New Road residents regarding to bus traffic noise.


yeah, though Tunbridge Wells wishes to get rid of Class 465 with trains with a better seating arrangement.

And on the flip side, on the way back that filter lane left on Woolwich Road to Long Lane works nicely...

In terms of bus noise, they can quite frankly get stuffed. The B11s are noisier than the 301s...

 

[MikeWh]

As for the Sidcup line that's even more unlikely.

Why?

OK, it's unlikely from Sidcup towards London, but with direct trains even in the peak between Bexley, Crayford and Abbey Wood I can see people from my neck of the woods using Crossrail.

 

[4-SUB 4732]

Why?

OK, it's unlikely from Sidcup towards London, but with direct trains even in the peak between Bexley, Crayford and Abbey Wood I can see people from my neck of the woods using Crossrail.

I’ll personally doubt it. As we know journey frequencies and times aren’t great (what if you get off your Crossrail train and that half-hourly rounder is cancelled or delayed?).

Sidcup line passengers will probably hope for at least an uplift in connections to Lewisham which are poor. I do not expect the ‘new’ off-peak express service to survive much longer as it will need to be decelerated as a means of providing connectivity above journey time which from Bexley to Charing Cross isn’t massively upset with a few extra stops anyway.

 

[MikeWh]

I’ll personally doubt it. As we know journey frequencies and times aren’t great (what if you get off your Crossrail train and that half-hourly rounder is cancelled or delayed?).

Sidcup line passengers will probably hope for at least an uplift in connections to Lewisham which are poor. I do not expect the ‘new’ off-peak express service to survive much longer as it will need to be decelerated as a means of providing connectivity above journey time which from Bexley to Charing Cross isn’t massively upset with a few extra stops anyway.

I don't know where you live, but from where I live Crayford - Abbey Wood - Canary Wharf is a lot more attractive than Crayford - Lewisham - Canary Wharf. Yes it's a bummer when a rounder is cancelled, but you can still travel via Dartford. If the Lewisham train is cancelled it can be more painful either changing again at Hither Green or double backing to London Bridge as the trains are much fuller there.

 

[4-SUB 4732]

I don't know where you live, but from where I live Crayford - Abbey Wood - Canary Wharf is a lot more attractive than Crayford - Lewisham - Canary Wharf. Yes it's a bummer when a rounder is cancelled, but you can still travel via Dartford. If the Lewisham train is cancelled it can be more painful either changing again at Hither Green or double backing to London Bridge as the trains are much fuller there.

Reality is the rounder won’t be attractive enough to pull people off the trains which will be more frequent towards Lewisham and London Bridge, certainly at peak, to get people going via Abbey Wood.

 

[MikeWh]

Reality is the rounder won’t be attractive enough to pull people off the trains which will be more frequent towards Lewisham and London Bridge, certainly at peak, to get people going via Abbey Wood.

Well we'll see. In fact I have a couple of friends who do that very commute from Crayford and Bexley so I'll ask them when I'm next in touch.

 

[bramling]

Considering I’ve had them on Victoria <> Dartford I think it’s fair to say they have done Metro work

Yeah all of a couple of trips per day tucked away within a couple of diagrams!

 

[ComUtoR]

Yeah all of a couple of trips per day tucked away within a couple of diagrams!

When was the last time a 365 went Vic > Dartford ?

 

[JonathanH]

When was the last time a 365 went Vic > Dartford ?

Some time in 2004. I seem to recall that they didn't really work high-peak services into or out of Victoria as they didn't operate in 12-car formations. Therefore, they were mainly restricted to shoulder peak workings on the mainline or fill in turns such as to Dartford.

 

[4-SUB 4732]

Well we'll see. In fact I have a couple of friends who do that very commute from Crayford and Bexley so I'll ask them when I'm next in touch.

But Crossrail isn’t currently open...

 

[4-SUB 4732]

Yeah all of a couple of trips per day tucked away within a couple of diagrams!

With captive diagrams including peak uplift and Gravesend runs its at least 12 units (465 and 466). Better than a poke in the eye.

 

[4-SUB 4732]

Some time in 2004. I seem to recall that they didn't really work high-peak services into or out of Victoria as they didn't operate in 12-car formations. Therefore, they were mainly restricted to shoulder peak workings on the mainline or fill in turns such as to Dartford.

They had some cracking main line turns via Tonbridge, but are most famously associated with the Chatham side. Some of the Cannon Street trains towards Faversham were 365, as was one very fast Victoria that was first stop Chatham. We did used to use them on the Bexleyheath, mind; and then 375s when they first came in. A 14:31 and a 16:14 off Victoria spring to mind.

 

[brad465]

They had some cracking main line turns via Tonbridge, but are most famously associated with the Chatham side. Some of the Cannon Street trains towards Faversham were 365, as was one very fast Victoria that was first stop Chatham. We did used to use them on the Bexleyheath, mind; and then 375s when they first came in. A 14:31 and a 16:14 off Victoria spring to mind.

They were also used on the summer specials that were extensions of the CHX-Gillingham services through to Ramsgate, which I remember using as a child back in the early 00s. Now 465s and 466s have used them since, including the last few years (although question marks whether the services will be worth running this year I suspect).

 

[4-SUB 4732]

They were also used on the summer specials that were extensions of the CHX-Gillingham services through to Ramsgate, which I remember using as a child back in the early 00s. Now 465s and 466s have used them since, including the last few years (although question marks whether the services will be worth running this year I suspect).

Relatively sure Saturday services from Victoria to Dartford also extended to Margate with them. Unless I've got that wrong...

 

[brad465]

Relatively sure Saturday services from Victoria to Dartford also extended to Margate with them. Unless I've got that wrong...

There were a few from Victoria on a couple of weekends that it wasn't possible to run them from Cannon St due to engineering work, but the gist was it was a Cannon Street to Ramsgate service, although one or two started/finished at Dartford. At weekends there were 2 or 3 each way, but weekday due to stock demand it was only 1 outwards than ran back empty straight after.

They did also extend a few High Speed Faversham terminators to call at Whitstable and Margate only, before running back empty to Faversham before their next London working.

 

[4-SUB 4732]

There were a few from Victoria on a couple of weekends that it wasn't possible to run them from Cannon St due to engineering work, but the gist was it was a Cannon Street to Ramsgate service, although one or two started/finished at Dartford. At weekends there were 2 or 3 each way, but weekday due to stock demand it was only 1 outwards than ran back empty straight after.

They did also extend a few High Speed Faversham terminators to call at Whitstable and Margate only, before running back empty to Faversham before their next London working.

I was talking about 2000/2004 time...

 

[brad465]

I was talking about 2000/2004 time...

Oh, my apologies I didn't grasp that. In that case I'm afraid I don't know if VIC-DFD services were extended at the time with the North Kent Gillingham services.