Will pre-9.30 AM free concessionary travel become permanent?

[nidave]

Most councils have for the time being relaxed the time restrictions for concessionary passes. Seeing as once given something, people don't like it being snatched away, and those most likely to have a pass are those most likely to vote, could we see all day travel become the norm?

 

[Stan Drews]

Most councils have for the time being relaxed the time restrictions for concessionary passes. Seeing as once given something, people don't like it being snatched away, and those most likely to have a pass are those most likely to vote, could we see all day travel become the norm?

Northern Ireland, Scotland and Wales seem to manage okay, so perhaps England will catch up?

 

[carlberry]

Most councils have for the time being relaxed the time restrictions for concessionary passes. Seeing as once given something, people don't like it being snatched away, and those most likely to have a pass are those most likely to vote, could we see all day travel become the norm?

No. Councils will have to pay for it and they didnt have any money before all this happened. It was only done because supermarkets decided to get some PR by having periods of time (when they would be quiet anyway) dedicated to various groups. Once things start changing back again bus companies will want less people during the AM rush hour.

 

[Nym]

Those countries all seem to have a lower level of self entitlement...?

 

[Contains Nuts]

No. Councils will have to pay for it and they didnt have any money before all this happened. It was only done because supermarkets decided to get some PR by having periods of time (when they would be quiet anyway) dedicated to various groups. Once things start changing back again bus companies will want less people during the AM rush hour.

The problem for many bus operators in England is that 9.30am is now the ‘rush hour’ when all of the concessionary pass holders descend on the bus because they ‘have to’ go shopping at that time, or they have booked an early doctors appointment because they ‘can’t’ go any later.

What is needed is some sort of structure to even out shopping journeys throughout the day in order to maintain social distancing, otherwise it will end up being a free-for-all with many being left behind if buses are not allowed to carry their usual capacity.

 

[Harpers Tate]

Once (if?) we do return to a 0930 OAP start time, it is within the power of the bus operators to deal with the 0930 "peak" - by having a pre-0930 reduced fare for passholders. At least one local operator here does this (£1, I believe - similar to the flat child fare); yet most choose not to make any such offer. Their choice, their commercial decision.

 

[Geordie driver]

I think many people are unaware of the differences around the country, some can use their passes early doors, some receive their passes at 60, it's like parts of the country are second class citizens.
I think it's quite likely they might get rid of the 09 30 restriction, most buses where I used to work were quite from about 08 45 anyway.
Wether there will be any buses for them to board is a different matter.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Once (if?) we do return to a 0930 OAP start time, it is within the power of the bus operators to deal with the 0930 "peak" - by having a pre-0930 reduced fare for passholders. At least one local operator here does this (£1, I believe - similar to the flat child fare); yet most choose not to make any such offer. Their choice, their commercial decision.

However, do many pass holders avail themselves of this? Why pay to travel at 0830 when they can wait an hour and pay nothing at 0930?

@carlberry and @Contains Nuts are spot on in their assessment. I used to see it in the olden days (pre virus) where I would travel to work at 0830 in Northampton - few passengers. If I was on a later start, then arriving just before 0930 and it was like something out of Cocoon with pass holders at the stops. Go there at 1030, and it would be quiet again.

 

[Aictos]

I disagree fully with any free travel prior to 09:30 for two reasons; 1. It's funding local councils have to find at risk to other services and 2. It's often abused by free pass users making buses full and standing thus making buses unavailable for those who actually do have to travel eg shift workers etc

Why should local buses be full of Doris's and Agnes taking up room on peak time buses and stopping Joe from getting the bus to work when they can easily use the buses AFTER 09:30 when it's less busy which Joe doesn't have the luxury as he would be late for work.

There's no reason why pass holders HAVE to be travelling at set times especially when they have the freedom to vary their journeys.

Operators should have a strict policy of passes not being valid prior to 09:30 and no discounted fares available either before that time.

In any case, passes should be means tested but that's for another discussion.

 

[carlberry]

Operators should have a strict policy of passes not being valid prior to 09:30 and no discounted fares available either before that time.

In any case, passes should be means tested but that's for another discussion.

If it was down to the operators I suspect the passes wouldn't be valid at all!

It's down to the council or devolved government to set the terms and times of the passes. Given the state that local government finances will be in now there would be a case for reviewing the operation of the free passes, however it's unlikely that anything will change.

 

[Taunton]

Northern Ireland, Scotland and Wales seem to manage okay, so perhaps England will catch up?

London has long had free for over 60 at all times, not just buses but the Underground etc as well. I've never noticed anything close to crowding out by older travellers in the morning peak. As London probably represents about half of English bus usage it really shouldn't be discounted. Likewise there is pretty much free travel for under 16s as well; it's only for about half your lifetime that fares are required there.

Of course, those who envy this are welcome to the London approach of having to pay their normal property taxes to their local borough council, PLUS substantial additional tax (on the same bill) to the Mayor of London for TfL etc.

 

[ValleyLines142]

I disagree fully with any free travel prior to 09:30 for two reasons; 1. It's funding local councils have to find at risk to other services and 2. It's often abused by free pass users making buses full and standing thus making buses unavailable for those who actually do have to travel eg shift workers etc

Why should local buses be full of Doris's and Agnes taking up room on peak time buses and stopping Joe from getting the bus to work when they can easily use the buses AFTER 09:30 when it's less busy which Joe doesn't have the luxury as he would be late for work.

There's no reason why pass holders HAVE to be travelling at set times especially when they have the freedom to vary their journeys.

Operators should have a strict policy of passes not being valid prior to 09:30 and no discounted fares available either before that time.

In any case, passes should be means tested but that's for another discussion.

You know what the elderly are like. They have their routines! In and out and back by 10am.

In the local Spar by me, at least 3 elderly chaps wait outside for the shop to open at 6am to get their newspapers!

I can imagine an uproar if its reverted back to 9.30am. Even though I think it would be a totally acceptable decision, because I agree that it isn't essential for them to be out beforehand.

 

[Pat1105]

Whilst I support the ENCTS scheme, I think that the 0930 restrictions should remain in place. Pass holders have almost the whole day to travel for free, and 0930 isn’t really that late in the morning anyway. Pass holders are extremely lucky to have such a thing and I doubt that there will be any sort of scheme when I reach that age. Perhaps they could introduce a flat £20 a year fee for pass holders, regardless of what time you travel, in which case local authorities could make something out of it. My elderly relative who has a pass says that she wouldn’t mind paying something.

 

[Taunton]

Perhaps they could introduce a flat £20 a year fee for pass holders, regardless of what time you travel, in which case local authorities could make something out of it. My elderly relative who has a pass says that she wouldn’t mind paying something.

The trouble with low level fees like this is that, if introduced, one would find almost all the money was absorbed by the additional bureaucracy costs in administering it.

 

[Qwerty133]

The scheme should be suspended for the foreseeable future. We need to be trying to reduce unnecessary public transport usage to allow something closer to social distancing on board and many people with bus passes use the bus almost every day which is something that wouldn't happen if they had to pay.

 

[overthewater]

Once again were back to the mean spirited people. IF you have 1000 oap and they can travel at any time instead of 09.30 on ward could it result in more passengers? I doubt it very much... it might spread out the load across the whole day.

The scheme should be suspended for the foreseeable future. We need to be trying to reduce unnecessary public transport usage to allow something closer to social distancing on board and many people with bus passes use the bus almost every day which is something that wouldn't happen if they had to pay.

Thats right, lock them away in their houses, kill them off quicker..

 

[carlberry]

Thats right, lock them away in their houses, kill them off quicker..

That has been the law for the last six weeks. With the elderly advised to do it for longer.

 

[Qwerty133]

Once again were back to the mean spirited people. IF you have 1000 oap and they can travel at any time instead of 09.30 on ward could it result in more passengers? I doubt it very much... it might spread out the load across the whole day.



Thats right, lock them away in their houses, kill them off quicker..

And that's the problem attitude amongst many. We are in the middle of a pandemic, that particularly effects the elderly, and is spread by close social contact. It is a fact that many elderly people make a number of separate bus journeys that the purpose of which could be combined into one, and at the current time unnecessary public transport usage needs to heavily discouraged in a way that requiring everyone to pay would. It is actually very inconsiderate of pensioners to not realise that they are quite possibly the least effected group of society by the current restrictions both at the current time and in future, and this pandemic has basically ensured that they'll be no such thing as a bus pass by when those who are losing their jobs to keep elder people safe will be their age.

 

[Aictos]

Whilst I support the ENCTS scheme, I think that the 0930 restrictions should remain in place. Pass holders have almost the whole day to travel for free, and 0930 isn’t really that late in the morning anyway. Pass holders are extremely lucky to have such a thing and I doubt that there will be any sort of scheme when I reach that age. Perhaps they could introduce a flat £20 a year fee for pass holders, regardless of what time you travel, in which case local authorities could make something out of it. My elderly relative who has a pass says that she wouldn’t mind paying something.

Exactly they have the whole day to do whatever involves bus travel, there is absolutely no need for them to be needing the buses at 7am or 8am when they can actually stagger their journeys to happen after 09:30 when there's more room on the buses.

Once again were back to the mean spirited people. IF you have 1000 oap and they can travel at any time instead of 09.30 on ward could it result in more passengers? I doubt it very much... it might spread out the load across the whole day.

Surely it's better to spread out the load across the whole day, it's not like the 1000 OAPs HAVE to do their shopping, go to Bingo or attend NHS appointments all before 09:30 because unlike those who actually work, those OAPs have the freedom to do any of the above at any time.

Maybe one thing to consider is getting rid of the scheme and instead run something similar to the Senior Railcard which costs a set amount for the year but comes with restriction of not being valid before 09:30 but can be used anywhere in UK.

Eg get the scheme to pay for itself, especially as not every OAP is watching the pennies hence if the free scheme remains then it really needs to means tested.

 

[matt_world2004]

If government starts mandating staggering work start times to ensure social distancing on public transport is there going to be a concept of a peak period anymore?

 

[overthewater]

Surely it's better to spread out the load across the whole day, it's not like the 1000 OAPs HAVE to do their shopping, go to Bingo or attend NHS appointments all before 09:30 because unlike those who actually work, those OAPs have the freedom to do any of the above at any time.

Doesn't happen anywhere else.

 

[Pat1105]

The scheme should be suspended for the foreseeable future. We need to be trying to reduce unnecessary public transport usage to allow something closer to social distancing on board and many people with bus passes use the bus almost every day which is something that wouldn't happen if they had to pay.

The problem with that is many elderly people rely on the bus service to go about their daily lives. They need it for shopping, appointments etc. It is not only a transport network, but also a social network too. It helps to combat loneliness. For some, the only people they’ll speak to in a day are those on the bus. Also, a free pass encourages elderly people to go out I think, as they aren't out off by paying the fare and they have the great gift of free travel!

 

[Qwerty133]

The problem with that is many elderly people rely on the bus service to go about their daily lives. They need it for shopping, appointments etc. It is not only a transport network, but also a social network too. It helps to combat loneliness. For some, the only people they’ll speak to in a day are those on the bus. Also, a free pass encourages elderly people to go out I think, as they aren't out off by paying the fare and they have the great gift of free travel!

I think you are fundamentally misunderstanding the reasons for suspending the scheme. Even as parts of the economy reopen it will be essential that public transport usage is suppressed in order to maintain some form of social distancing and for that reason it would be totally inappropriate to continue with any scheme that 'encourages people to go out'.

 

[Pat1105]

I think you are fundamentally misunderstanding the reasons for suspending the scheme. Even as parts of the economy reopen it will be essential that public transport usage is suppressed in order to maintain some form of social distancing and for that reason it would be totally inappropriate to continue with any scheme that 'encourages people to go out'.

I understand what you’re saying here, and yes it does make sense to limit public transport use during these times. However, not all pensioners are lucky in that they have a car or someone to fetch essentials for them. I think the majority of pensioners will stay off the buses for the time being, but there will still remain a small minority who will continue to use the bus. We don’t know the full extend as to what the outcome of the government’s announcement on Sunday will be whether they allow people, especially the elderly, to go out more often and use public transport or whether the elderly will continue to be shielded.

 

[Aictos]

Doesn't happen anywhere else.

Very doubtful as it's happens every day in my home city without fail so claiming it doesn't happen anywhere else is rubbish.

 

[delt1c]

When I worked for LT in 70's and 80's we used to call them Twirlys, i will at this point leave it to members to work that one one out or for former staff to explain the meaning. Before anyone says nothing derogatory .

 

[Pat1105]

Very doubtful as it's happens every day in my home city without fail so claiming it doesn't happen anywhere else is rubbish.

And mine too! Throughout the day, buses here are busy with OAP’s so there’s not necessarily a time where they all go out.

 

[Pat1105]

When I worked for LT in 70's and 80's we used to call them Twirlys, i will at this point leave it to members to work that one one out or for former staff to explain the meaning. Before anyone says nothing derogatory .

Twirly = too early. It’s the merging of the two words. They get on at say 9.27 and say “am I too early?”

 

[overthewater]

Very doubtful as it's happens every day in my home city without fail so claiming it doesn't happen anywhere else is rubbish.

I will just leave this here:

Northern Ireland, Scotland and Wales seem to manage okay, so perhaps England will catch up?

 

[Robertj21a]

Whilst I support the ENCTS scheme, I think that the 0930 restrictions should remain in place. Pass holders have almost the whole day to travel for free, and 0930 isn’t really that late in the morning anyway. Pass holders are extremely lucky to have such a thing and I doubt that there will be any sort of scheme when I reach that age. Perhaps they could introduce a flat £20 a year fee for pass holders, regardless of what time you travel, in which case local authorities could make something out of it. My elderly relative who has a pass says that she wouldn’t mind paying something.

I guess that, to many of the elderly, 9.30am is really a bit late in the day. Many will be up and about any time after 6am, so it's not surprising that they get on the first available bus once their pass is valid. Even so, the 9.30 am start is probably a good balance with the peak rush hour loads (if we ever see them again) out of the way.