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My opinion: children are safer if they are attending school

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Ianno87

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My son's nurseries (he attends 2 for vaious long-winded reasons) have both e-mailed parents today to gauge interest along the lines of "If we re-opened, would you send your child?"

Basically I guess gauging whether numbers would be a high enough to warrant re-opening, and if they were how sessions could be allocated so as to give the best shot at social distancing.
 
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nidave

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I would argue that the teaching unions are now the most powerful in the country. Without them agreeing to go back to work, millions can't. They've got the government by the short and curlies, I don't see this dispute ending soon.
 

Bletchleyite

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I would argue that the teaching unions are now the most powerful in the country. Without them agreeing to go back to work, millions can't. They've got the government by the short and curlies, I don't see this dispute ending soon.

Well, there's one way it could - a total ban on public-sector strikes. Temporary to start with, but then.....

The Unions need to be very, very careful of what they are inviting a Tory Government to do.
 

nidave

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Well, there's one way it could - a total ban on public-sector strikes. Temporary to start with, but then.....

The Unions need to be very, very careful of what they are inviting a Tory Government to do.
I spoke to my sister, who is a primary school teacher, and she reckons that even if there is a move to force teachers to go back to work, we'll just see a wave of wildcat strikes. I think the teachers are well up for a fight over this!
 

Mag_seven

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I spoke to my sister, who is a primary school teacher, and she reckons that even if there is a move to force teachers to go back to work, we'll just see a wave of wildcat strikes. I think the teachers are well up for a fight over this!

What would make the teachers who "do not want to go back to work", go back to work? (of course what we mean by "back to work" is "back to work at the school")
 

Qwerty133

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I spoke to my sister, who is a primary school teacher, and she reckons that even if there is a move to force teachers to go back to work, we'll just see a wave of wildcat strikes. I think the teachers are well up for a fight over this!
Instant dismissal of any who take part in such strikes may well nip that in the bud. Unfortunately much of the teaching profession is so interesting in making a tory government look bad they have forgotten about the needs of the children they are supposedly employed to benefit.
Teachers need to realise that a large portion of society realise that if they weren't moaning about Covid they'd be moaning about something else.
 

nidave

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What would make the teachers who "do not want to go back to work", go back to work?
All the unions suggestions to be implemented. Just hearing the anger in my sister's voice, I really don't think they'll back down, not when they're in such a strong position!
 

C J Snarzell

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I don't have children myself but I do have a 5-year-old nephew who is my brother's boy with his former partner.

He has low level Autism and his mother is really struggling at present working from home and having to deal with him running rampant around the house.

Fortunately, because he is in reception, he is likely to go back to his school on the 1st June if all goes according to plan. I think to keep a child like this way away from a school environment from March to September would be catastrophic for his development & his mother's mental health.

Most other parents I have spoken to are generally in favour of their children going back to the classroom because their education is vital and most families will be glad of some respite in these challenging times.

On the subject of Scotland - I actually agree with some of the comments on here that Ma'am Sturgeon is being extremely brutal towards the people up there and from speaking to a friend in Edinburgh, there are already serious mental health concerns that the First Minister has completely ignored.

CJ
 

nidave

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Instant dismissal of any who take part in such strikes may well nip that in the bud. Unfortunately much of the teaching profession is so interesting in making a tory government look bad they have forgotten about the needs of the children they are supposedly employed to benefit.
Teachers need to realise that a large portion of society realise that if they weren't moaning about Covid they'd be moaning about something else.
I don't think you realise the anger of the teachers, any of them summarily dismissed will be seen as martyrs...
 

PG

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Well, there's one way it could - a total ban on public-sector strikes. Temporary to start with, but then.....

The Unions need to be very, very careful of what they are inviting a Tory Government to do.
So imagine it comes to that, a ban on public sector strikes, there are other ways for workers denied the right to strike to disrupt things e.g. worksafe policies, work to rule, withdrawal of goodwill etc...

Then imagine going down the road of dismissal in response to unofficial strike action. Teachers and train drivers (to name but a few) cost a tidy sum and length of time to train and don't grow on trees.

It could be both a strength and a weakness for the teachers that they have a few different unions compared to train drivers basically having 2, one majority one in Aslef and a minority one (from the perspective of purely drivers) in the RMT.
 

Ianno87

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*shakes head*

My thoughts on social distancing (for younger children) can be found here: Should younger children be required to socially distance

OK, one of them did basically write in the letter (quite reasonably) "if you agree to send your child, whilst they will be kept in small groups, we cannot guarantee social distancing will be adheres to"

They are also going to reconfigure the nursery to keep groups of kids seperate, and also have different pickup/dropoff arrangements, outside the school building.
 

Qwerty133

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I don't think you realise the anger of the teachers, any of them summarily dismissed will be seen as martyrs...
Maybe within the profession but many outside of it already see teachers as militant work avoiders. I don't think many quite realise how many parents wouldn't care if many of the current lot of teachers were replaced with unqualified people who actually seemed to care about the children rather than people who they see as just interested in collecting their paycheque and having long holidays.
 

yorkie

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OK, one of them did basically write in the letter (quite reasonably) "if you agree to send your child, whilst they will be kept in small groups, we cannot guarantee social distancing will be adheres to"

They are also going to reconfigure the nursery to keep groups of kids seperate, and also have different pickup/dropoff arrangements, outside the school building.
That sounds sensible :)
Maybe within the profession but many outside of it already see teachers as militant work avoiders. I don't think many quite realise how many parents wouldn't care if many of the current lot of teachers were replaced with unqualified people who actually seemed to care about the children rather than people who they see as just interested in collecting their paycheque and having long holidays.
I'm not sure if you are stating that view or not, but I don't know many teachers who are anything like that description. I do know plenty of hard-working caring teachers though! I know of many teachers who are voluntarily going into schools to work right now.
 

Qwerty133

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That sounds sensible :)

I'm not sure if you are stating that view or not, but I don't know many teachers who are anything like that description. I do know plenty of hard-working caring teachers though! I know of many teachers who are voluntarily going into schools to work right now.
I'm sure the vast majority of teachers aren't like that in reality, but it's certainly the image that a lot of the media like to portray.
If teachers think they will get an easy ride if they choose to strike over the virus they are sorely mistaken.
 

sjpowermac

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That sounds sensible :)

I'm not sure if you are stating that view or not, but I don't know many teachers who are anything like that description. I do know plenty of hard-working caring teachers though! I know of many teachers who are voluntarily going into schools to work right now.
Those on the forum jumping up and down about a strike are very wide of the mark: it’s not going to happen. Yes, there’s a lot of noise being made by the unions, but they wouldn’t win a ballot and they know that.
 

Fred Dinenage

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https://www.tes.com/news/coronavirus-doctors-back-teachers-fears-over-schools-reopening
In a letter to Kevin Courtney, joint general secretary of the NEU, Dr Chaand Nagpaul, the chief executive of the British Medical Association said the NEU was "absolutely right to urge caution" over schools reopening.

The letter said that the BMA's Public Health Medical Committee had considered the scientific evidence "available on the reopening of schools and has found it to be thus far conflicting, which is perhaps unsurprising given the relatively small amount of research available and the unchartered territory we find ourselves in".
Seems the BMA thinks it’s a bad idea.
 
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nidave

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Those on the forum jumping up and down about a strike are very wide of the mark: it’s not going to happen. Yes, there’s a lot of noise being made by the unions, but they wouldn’t win a ballot and they know that.
The unions don't need to issue a ballot, all they need to do is 'recommend' that teachers don't return to work until their concerns over safety are sorted and it achieves the same goals as a strike.
 

sjpowermac

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Seems the BMA thinks it’s a bad idea.
Prior to the lockdown, many schools were taking zero precautions beyond encouraging children to wash their hands more regularly. Certainly at my school even that wasn’t really happening. Remember, at this time teachers were working in often cramped classrooms with 32 students. Yet despite this there’s zero evidence that death rates amongst teachers have been any different from those in other occupations...
 

sjpowermac

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The unions don't need to issue a ballot, all they need to do is 'recommend' that teachers don't return to work until their concerns over safety are sorted and it achieves the same goals as a strike.
When push comes to shove, teachers will return to work when their school tells them to.
 

nidave

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When push comes to shove, teachers will return to work when their school tells them to.
In my sister's case she's already been asked to return on June 1st , and she (and her coworkers) have already given their answer...
 

sjpowermac

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In my sister's case she's already been asked to return on June 1st , and she (and her coworkers) have already given their answer...
Well good luck to her with that one. Senior managers in schools tend to have very good memories and never take kindly to staff not doing what they have been told. I wouldn’t expect a great deal of support from the toothless unions further down the line...

Perhaps you would like to remind us all of when the last successful teacher strike took place? The one in 2014 was over the most outrageous changes to working conditions: performance related pay, along with competency measures, oh and some huge cuts to pension benefits. The strikes were poorly supported in most areas and fizzled out quickly.
 

sjpowermac

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I'm sure the vast majority of teachers aren't like that in reality, but it's certainly the image that a lot of the media like to portray.
If teachers think they will get an easy ride if they choose to strike over the virus they are sorely mistaken.
If you think that teachers have it so easy, then why not re-train? Perhaps when you’ve then tried the job for a year or so you can come back and tell us all about your experience?
 

thejuggler

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It is quite easy. All Government have to do is release the science they have been guided by which demonstrates it will be safe for children and teachers to be back in school in two weeks.

Is any of it forthcoming yet? With the R value rising I doubt it is.
 

Puffing Devil

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Having had a look at some of the stuff they've said I'd not trust them to have the overall best interests of children in mind; I don't think they are capable of looking at the bigger picture.

And the best interests of the teachers? Are you OK with returning to work without social distancing? How do we ensure that teachers have the same protection as any other workers? Do we provide them with full PPE?

It is quite easy. All Government have to do is release the science they have been guided by which demonstrates it will be safe for children and teachers to be back in school in two weeks.

Is any of it forthcoming yet? With the R value rising I doubt it is.

Exactly.


My children's school has emailed today to say that they will not be reopening, other than to provide support for key workers and vulnerable children, until at least September. I support that stance.
 

Bayum

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Instant dismissal of any who take part in such strikes may well nip that in the bud. Unfortunately much of the teaching profession is so interesting in making a tory government look bad they have forgotten about the needs of the children they are supposedly employed to benefit.
Teachers need to realise that a large portion of society realise that if they weren't moaning about Covid they'd be moaning about something else.
Are you actually mad? Have you not seen the effort that teachers have put into place to ensure that your children are continuing to be educated, to set hubs and schools up for key worker children, checking in for those in the vulnerable groups, supporting families with drop offs of food parcels, those who have grievances? I suggest you take a step back and rein your neck in before you consider ever telling a group of teachers that they are putting something other than children in their best interests.
1) There is no evidence that transmission via children as vectors is less than or more than an adult. At all.
2) Though children are less likely to be symptomatic, the ONS statistics have shown there to be no difference in the positive diagnosis rates in children compared to other age groups.
3) We still have no idea if the risk groups this virus presents harm to. We hadn’t even considered BAME groups as being at a higher risk of mortality than white groups until now.
4) Children in Europe and America are suffering from Kawasaki-like syndrome which has been shown to be due to the virus. Again, these have been in healthy children. We don’t know how these children are going to be impacted immediately or in the future.
5) Bringing together 15 children is asking for trouble. At the moment, I case you hadn’t noticed because we put ourselves and political ideologies in front of children and their needs, we are looking after pretty much the same groups of children day in day out. Bringing together further children risks there being a much larger spread of disease and illness. Yes, thankfully most children suffer no symptoms and have extremely mild cases of disease, however they are asymptomatic a lot of the time. As vectors, disease can be passed from family to family much quicker than is happening now. Some families have shielding parents, some families have vulnerable children. What is in place for that?
6) How can we be certain that children coming into school are not unwell before exposing us to risk? In the week the isolation protocols for families came in, we had parents bringing children in with new, hacking coughs whereby parents kept telling us their child wouldn’t be picked up because the cough was nothing to worry about and they had sought medical opinion. When we have asked for evidence, this was denied on confidentiality grounds. Three days later, the family isolated for fourteen days. Even with us trying to reduce the risk to other children and ourselves, it was extremely difficult. Other children would come in, visibly tired but looking OK. Get to lunchtime and the children complain of feeling ill. “I had a temperature in the night and mummy gave me some calpol”. If you think for a minute that every single parent is going to be honest about their children being truly asymptomatic or healthy to be in school, then take a closer look.

The reluctance to return to work is one we take with an extremely heavy heart. I am shielding until the end of June, but I am still extremely concerned for my colleagues returning and for the children returning. We have no idea what is going to happen, it hasn’t been modelled correctly and the evidence base for vector transmission in children is wholly anecdotal at absolute best. Children are being impacted by the virus and severely in some cases, but we have no idea who this risk group is. The children who are vulnerable have all had the option across the country to be taken into school with the children of key workers, and that has been extended since the lockdown has been relaxed. As a country, teachers and the rest of the sectors have put their blood, sweat and tears into ensuring that children are not too affected by this break in their education. I apologise profusely if this hasn’t happened in your case (by the gross accusations you’ve made it sounds like it’s possible), but to whitewash the whole profession based on this is ludicrous. Yes, we have our interests at heart, but first and foremost is the impact the potential infection risk posed to the children and their families.
 

Esker-pades

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Why are schools in other countries open then?
*shakes head*

My thoughts on social distancing (for younger children) can be found here: Should younger children be required to socially distance
Schools in other countries are open with a lower R-rate, fewer deaths per day, etc.

Take Danish primary schools (equivalent of):
  • Classes are split in half (double the number of classrooms and teachers required)
  • Each half is further split in half (they occupy the same room, but there is tape down the middle of the room which children are not permitted to cross)
  • Each of those quarters has to take playtime in even smaller groups

Essentially, other countries have a proper plan.
 

yorkie

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Schools in other countries are open with a lower R-rate, fewer deaths per day, etc.

Take Danish primary schools (equivalent of):
  • Classes are split in half (double the number of classrooms and teachers required)
  • Each half is further split in half (they occupy the same room, but there is tape down the middle of the room which children are not permitted to cross)
  • Each of those quarters has to take playtime in even smaller groups

Essentially, other countries have a proper plan.
Yes those things make a lot more sense than asking younger children to do social distancing.

I'd like us to do similar things here, but sadly I fear that those who have no proper perspective of the bigger picture, will prevent it :(
Do we provide them with full PPE?
What do you have in mind?
 
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