Your suggestions for the reopening of the Northumberland Line via Bedlington

[fgwrich]

Moderator note: Split from

Northumberland Line to be re-opened to passengers

This just in from New Civil Engineer: Northumberland freight line to be converted for commuter service Aecom and SLC Rail have secured £10M in funding to develop detailed designs to convert the freight-only Northumberland Line into a railway fit for commuters. Northumberland County Council is...

www.railforums.co.uk

I know it’s far too early to start talking about rolling stock for the route, but could this be ideal for utilising some of Northern’s 769 fleet?

More so if the services can cross the city and out to places like Metro Centre and beyond.

 

[Anvil1984]

I know it’s far too early to start talking about rolling stock for the route, but could this be ideal for utilising some of Northern’s 769 fleet? More so if the services can cross the city and out to places like Metro Centre and beyond.

To be honest I think theres more worthy candidates for those than this line. Bearing in mind Northern are only getting 8 769s anyway. Looking at Railmiles this works out as 4 miles on Electric and 19 on diesel. Again this may be for another topic

 

[lancastrian]

I know it’s far too early to start talking about rolling stock for the route, but could this be ideal for utilising some of Northern’s 769 fleet? More so if the services can cross the city and out to places like Metro Centre and beyond.

In my humble opinion this is a good idea. I have always felt very strange about the use of DMU's on the local services to Alnmouth/Chathill as they travel all the way from Newcastle under the wires. Surely as most of them seem to go to and from Metro Centre station, then wiring the line to at least there would make perfect sense to me, no only would it stop all that DMU travel under the wires, also when the line to Ashington has been opened a while, it will certainly an option for electrification then. Personally I feel it should be electrified from the start, but lets get it open and running first, then it can be electrified as soon as possible after it has opened.

Also an extension of the electrification to Hexham would be an excellent choice, enabling a cross Newcastle service from Ashington to Hexham.

 

[Class 170101]

In my humble opinion this is a good idea. I have always felt very strange about the use of DMU's on the local services to Alnmouth/Chathill as they travel all the way from Newcastle under the wires. Surely as most of them seem to go to and from Metro Centre station, then wiring the line to at least there would make perfect sense to me, no only would it stop all that DMU travel under the wires, also when the line to Ashington has been opened a while, it will certainly an option for electrification then. Personally I feel it should be electrified from the start, but lets get it open and running first, then it can be electrified as soon as possible after it has opened.

Also an extension of the electrification to Hexham would be an excellent choice, enabling a cross Newcastle service from Ashington to Hexham.

Given that there is a DMU shortage why not run the existing Morpeth service to Northumberland (the new line) and use these DMUs whilst serving Chathill from Newcastle, or perhaps even Darlington - didn't Northern have a franchise commitment of some description to run a local service here, using EMUs like Class 321s / Class 322s?

 

[Anvil1984]

Given that there is a DMU shortage why not run the existing Morpeth service to Northumberland (the new line) and use these DMUs whilst serving Chathill from Newcastle, or perhaps even Darlington - didn't Northern have a franchise commitment of some description to run a local service here, using EMUs like Class 321s / Class 322s?

We are getting back into speculative ideas territory again I feel.

The Darlington to Newcastle limited services which Northern had a commitment for (3 North, 1 south plus Empty stocks) are ran with DMUs as their main purpose is to shuffle stock between Heaton depot where they are based and the Bishop - Saltburn line. The only other service they committed down the ECML was the “Connect” service to Middlesbrough, but the wires run out at Ferryhill and no paths were found to allow that service.

The Chathill (2 a day) / Morpeths are ran with DMUs because there is nowhere to reverse an EMU on the Morpeths. The usual reversal sidings are unwired and the loops at the north of the station don’t have signalling to permit crossovers from the down to the up. You could extend the Morpeths further north but good luck getting the paths. Then you’d have to wait and teach a whole depot of about 80 drivers (50ish guards IIRC) on EMUs and about half of the drivers on the line north of Morpeth.

Not insurmountable but it’s not the quick fix people make it out to be especially for the sake of 2 units.

In my humble opinion this is a good idea. I have always felt very strange about the use of DMU's on the local services to Alnmouth/Chathill as they travel all the way from Newcastle under the wires. Surely as most of them seem to go to and from Metro Centre station,

Just to pick up on this the Morpeths actually run through to Carlisle Monday to Saturdays (Metrocentre on a Sunday). The majority of the Metrocentre terminators were canned about two years ago in favour of the second service an hour to Carlisle

 

[Class 170101]

We are getting back into speculative ideas territory again I feel.

The Darlington to Newcastle limited services which Northern had a commitment for (3 North, 1 south plus Empty stocks) are ran with DMUs as their main purpose is to shuffle stock between Heaton depot where they are based and the Bishop - Saltburn line. The only other service they committed down the ECML was the “Connect” service to Middlesbrough, but the wires run out at Ferryhill and no paths were found to allow that service.

The Chathill (2 a day) / Morpeths are ran with DMUs because there is nowhere to reverse an EMU on the Morpeths. The usual reversal sidings are unwired and the loops at the north of the station don’t have signalling to permit crossovers from the down to the up. You could extend the Morpeths further north but good luck getting the paths. Then you’d have to wait and teach a whole depot of about 80 drivers (50ish guards IIRC) on EMUs and about half of the drivers on the line north of Morpeth.

Not insurmountable but it’s not the quick fix people make it out to be especially for the sake of 2 units.

The Morpeths would be extended to Northumberland surely so would have to be DMUs and can carry onto Metrocentre / Hexham / Carlisle. You would like to think that perhaps EMUs between Darlington and Chathill (Berwick anyone?) would be able to find a path due to better acceleration and higher speeds (usually 100 v 75mph).

Just to pick up on this the Morpeths actually run through to Carlisle Monday to Saturdays (Metrocentre on a Sunday). The majority of the Metrocentre terminators were canned about two years ago in favour of the second service an hour to Carlisle

Hence why with Chathill still to be served and no DMUs I suggested EMUs.

 

[Anvil1984]

The Morpeths would be extended to Northumberland surely so would have to be DMUs and can carry onto Metrocentre / Hexham / Carlisle. You would like to think that perhaps EMUs between Darlington and Chathill (Berwick anyone?) would be able to find a path due to better acceleration and higher speeds (usually 100 v 75mph).




Hence why with Chathill still to be served and no DMUs I suggested EMUs.

Newcastle to Darlington has 6tph (with at least 4 stopping at Durham) as it is, theres no need for a 7th. Chester-Le-Street doesn’t get a service because TPE couldnt get a path and they are EMU.

As for north of Morpeth I just don’t think it would “pay the bills”on the local services. You say “The Morpeths would be extended onto Northumberland” but the new line isn’t the one through Morpeth it branches off 5 minutes outside of Newcastle

 

[Killingworth]

While we're speculating on reopening closed lines in Northumberland, bear in mind that the two trains that serve Chathill on weekdays only picked up 2,546 passengers in 2018/19. Deduct a few station bagging enthusiasts and that's very few people each day. There are a dozen houses and a farm at Chahill, but Seahouses is only 5 miles away and used to have a branch line. Most using those two services will either join or leave at Alnmouth or further south. Chathill is added because the trains return from the Crag Mill Loop.

I'm surprised nobody has suggested restoring the Seahouses (North Sunderland Railway) branch, or taking over and electrifying the Aln Valley Railway to Alnmouth Lion Heart! Those ideas need quickly putting back in the box to be looked at again another time - maybe in 30 years? However, there are markets to be tapped in both places.

 

[Anvil1984]

While we're speculating on reopening closed lines in Northumberland, bear in mind that the two trains that serve Chathill on weekdays only picked up 2,546 passengers in 2018/19. Deduct a few station bagging enthusiasts and that's very few people each day. There are a dozen houses and a farm at Chahill, but Seahouses is only 5 miles away and used to have a branch line. Most using those two services will either join or leave at Alnmouth or further south. Chathill is added because the trains return from the Crag Mill Loop.

I'm surprised nobody has suggested restoring the Seahouses (North Sunderland Railway) branch, or taking over and electrifying the Aln Valley Railway to Alnmouth Lion Heart! Those ideas need quickly putting back in the box to be looked at again another time - maybe in 30 years? However, there are markets to be tapped in both places.

At Chathill you only seem to pick up on the Morning Southbound and drop off on the evening Northbound. It’s usually the same person but there are anomalies, usually hikers and campers but the most I’ve seen is 4.

I could see extensions to Alnwick or even Seahouses being looked at maybe in 20 years (neither line has been built on and as they are off the mainline they have an advantage of not blocking the ECML for 10 mins standing time).
In fairness with the amount of standing time you have in Morpeth sidings for most of the day (25 - 40 mins) you can probably extend to Bedlington but that lines conversion isn’t in discussion yet. There’s potential there but I just don’t see it on just putting local trains duplicating express trains atm

 

[swt_passenger]

...
“The Morpeths would be extended onto Northumberland” but the new line isn’t the one through Morpeth it branches off 5 minutes outside of Newcastle

I think in the overall context so far he must have meant the existing Morpeth would be diverted to the “Northumberland line” from Benton, ie it would no longer serve Morpeth.

Then the existing Morpeth stopping service would have to be served by something else?

But the risk with this sort of proposal to join up different services across Newcastle is probably that all the paths don’t match up. Just get it going as a stand-alone service, and if it can be adapted later on then cross that bridge when you come to it.

 

[Anvil1984]

I think in the overall context so far he must have meant the existing Morpeth would be diverted to the “Northumberland line” from Benton, ie it would no longer serve Morpeth.

Then the existing Morpeth stopping service would have to be served by something else?

But the risk with this sort of proposal to join up different services across Newcastle is probably that all the paths don’t match up. Just get it going as a stand-alone service, and if it can be adapted later on then cross that bridge when you come to it.

To be honest the blurb in the Track Access Application form for Northern suggests most of the routes in and out of Newcastle will start / terminate there making this less of a problem. However I’m not sure how services will inter work until the timetable is actually uploaded.

Either way at present there’s no real point in converting the Newcastle to Morpeth service to EMU operation unless another line (probably the Carlisle line is easiest) as you would have a micro fleet at Heaton and for the investment required (electrification of sidings / signalling, training of train crew for EMUs on just one short route) it just seems a bit pointless.
The suggestion of extending the Morpeths to Berwick is just an invitation to cart fresh air around all day. You’d have to rebuild the bay platform back at Berwick (otherwise you’re blocking a platform on the ECML for the statutory turnaround time) and half of the stops are badly placed or only serving really small villages. There’d be more value attempting to shuffle the Edinburgh to Newcastle (and beyond services) so 1 every 2 hours (if hourly isn’t possible) stops at Berwick, Alnmouth and Morpeth.

 

[willgreen]

Pegswood - population roughly 3300
Widdrington Station - population roughly 2800
Acklington - population roughly 500
No population figures for Chathill.
Alnmouth - population of 500 and railhead for Alnwick, population roughly 8000
So these places aren't really, really tiny - bigger or equal to many places on the Bentham line, for example. That's obviously not a great example of a high-performing line but I do feel these places would sustain a two-hourly service if tried. There are also proposals to build a new platform at Berwick anyway (I believe Scotrail want to stop their East Linton service there). Not cheap, of course, but from a cost-benefit point of view I reckon this would be a good opportunity (linking scenic Northumberland together; access to the regional centre of Newcastle; better service for Alnmouth, Berwick and possibly Morpeth and Cramlington - and with no station works required except at Berwick).

 

[Killingworth]

Pegswood - population roughly 3300
Widdrington Station - population roughly 2800
Acklington - population roughly 500
No population figures for Chathill.
Alnmouth - population of 500 and railhead for Alnwick, population roughly 800
So these places aren't really, really tiny - bigger or equal to many places on the Bentham line, for example. That's obviously not a great example of a high-performing line but I do feel these places would sustain a two-hourly service if tried. There are also proposals to build a new platform at Berwick anyway (I believe Scotrail want to stop their East Linton service there). Not cheap, of course, but from a cost-benefit point of view I reckon this would be a good opportunity (linking scenic Northumberland together; access to the regional centre of Newcastle; better service for Alnmouth, Berwick and possibly Morpeth and Cramlington - and with no station works required except at Berwick).

For the record, population of Alnwick is over 8000, not 800. Alnmouth station had 345,000 passengers in 2018/19. Its railhead for a large area and before covid both the car parks were overflowing on most week days.

 

[willgreen]

For the record, population of Alnwick is over 8000, not 800. Alnmouth station had 345,000 passengers in 2018/19. Its railhead for a large area and before covid both the car parks were overflowing on most week days.

Left out a zero by mistake.

 

[Class 170101]

I think in the overall context so far he must have meant the existing Morpeth would be diverted to the “Northumberland line” from Benton, ie it would no longer serve Morpeth.

Then the existing Morpeth stopping service would have to be served by something else?

But the risk with this sort of proposal to join up different services across Newcastle is probably that all the paths don’t match up. Just get it going as a stand-alone service, and if it can be adapted later on then cross that bridge when you come to it.

I was thinking along this line with the existing Morepeth served by EMU. I am aware the siding at Morepeth is unwired hence the thoughts of heading north to Chathill or Berwick. The other reason for this would be to speed up East Coast, Cross Country and TPE services between Newcastle and Berwick and conceivably, if you could make it work between, Berwick and Edinburgh so Intercity services would only call at Berwick between Edinburgh and Newcastle.

I accept your comment about performance risk of cross Newcastle services but as you would be replacing Morepeth with Northumberland I don't see that as an increased risk assuming the current path south of Newcastle can be made to work in Northumberland.

Newcastle to Darlington has 6tph (with at least 4 stopping at Durham) as it is, theres no need for a 7th. Chester-Le-Street doesn’t get a service because TPE couldnt get a path and they are EMU.

Again could you speed up services between York / Darlington and Newcastle by only omitting such calls and replacing the service with a 'local' train.

How many services use the Fast Lines at Darlington (its not many now). I would be surprised if there is demand for more than one of eash of Intercity Operators LNER, TPE and XC to call.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

On the original line of the Blyth and Tyne Railway, the line carried onwards through Ashington to a station at Newbiggin-by-the-Sea. What has happened to the line section on that final stretch that would make it totally uneconomic to reinstate for a future rail service.

 

[Killingworth]

On the original line of the Blyth and Tyne Railway, the line carried onwards through Ashington to a station at Newbiggin-by-the-Sea. What has happened to the line section on that final stretch that would make it totally uneconomic to reinstate for a future rail service.

The line to Lynemouth carries on passing Woodhorn on the outskirts of Newbiggin. Would there be enough passengers to justify a passenger station there or a restored track the short distance into the village? The old trackbed seems to remain fairly clear.

 

[HST43257]

How many services use the Fast Lines at Darlington (its not many now). I would be surprised if there is demand for more than one of eash of Intercity Operators LNER, TPE and XC to call.

LNER have 1 service a day that uses the fast lines through Darlington (0540 from EDB Flying Scotsman).
TPE have none passing in covid timetables but pre-covid I believe there were 3 or 4 a day, or at least on a Saturday for definite.
XC have none passing I think.

The line to Lynemouth carries on passing Woodhorn on the outskirts of Newbiggin. Would there be enough passengers to justify a passenger station there or a restored track the short distance into the village? The old trackbed seems to remain fairly clear.

I’d support this. I would guess that the road commute from that area to Newcastle is fairly popular but I’m sure many would change to rail if they had the chance. All I’d say is that I’d prefer to have a parkway for Lynemouth and bring it as far into Newbiggin as possible. I doubt the prospect of walking at least a mile isn’t all too attractive. Another option could be taking the existing route to Lynemouth with a plusbus advertised shuttle bus into Newbiggin that connects with the rail service (from a station as close to the centre as possible near the curve).

 

[Killingworth]

I’d support this. I would guess that the road commute from that area to Newcastle is fairly popular but I’m sure many would change to rail if they had the chance. All I’d say is that I’d prefer to have a parkway for Lynemouth and bring it as far into Newbiggin as possible. I doubt the prospect of walking at least a mile isn’t all too attractive. Another option could be taking the existing route to Lynemouth with a plusbus advertised shuttle bus into Newbiggin that connects with the rail service (from a station as close to the centre as possible near the curve).

SENRUG have Woodhorn and Newbiggin in their longer term plans. https://www.senrug.co.uk/Re-open-AshingtonBlythTyneLine.php

Newbiggin's population is about 6,000-6,500. That's not a large number to justify a railway connection, especially when there's a good bus service to Newcastle up to every 20 minutes already.

 

[Purple Orange]

Are there any plans to reintroduce additional bay platforms at the east end of Newcastle Central and will the line be electrified? (It would be quite poor if a line that was electrified over 100 years ago was confined to DMUs, especially in an era where we are seeking to decarbonise).

 

[androdas]

Are there any plans to reintroduce additional bay platforms at the east end of Newcastle Central and will the line be electrified? (It would be quite poor if a line that was electrified over 100 years ago was confined to DMUs, especially in an era where we are seeking to decarbonise).

I think the plan is to use the seldom used platform 1 at Newcastle. I think this is mainly used by the Glasgow Central via everywhere train to lay over.
The Blyth and Tyne itself has never been electrified, the north tyne loop is but that is what is now the metro.

 

[Purple Orange]

I think the plan is to use the seldom used platform 1 at Newcastle. I think this is mainly used by the Glasgow Central via everywhere train to lay over.
The Blyth and Tyne itself has never been electrified, the north tyne loop is but that is what is now the metro.

Thanks. I’d like to see some pressure for electrification from the start, but I’ll not hold my breath.

 

[Anvil1984]

I think the plan is to use the seldom used platform 1 at Newcastle. I think this is mainly used by the Glasgow Central via everywhere train to lay over.
The Blyth and Tyne itself has never been electrified, the north tyne loop is but that is what is now the metro.

The Scotrail service stays in the westbound bays nowadays (hasn’t used platform 1 or officially been a Glasgow service in at least a year now, just a Carlisle)

Platform 1 is usually now for storing Northern units throughout the day and the odd couple of TPE services to keep them out the way (as they can’t use the West Bays due to length). However there’s no plans as yet for added bays that side and Bluth and Tyne has been planned for DMU operations

 

[waverley47]

Electrification seems likely in the medium term, but...

1. They'd be a captive unit or four. There are no other EMU services based out of Newcastle, although there perhaps should be. If Morpeth/Sunderland/MetroCentre services were run under the wires it would be simple, but you'd need to electrify the lot, as all the diagrams interwork.

Also, Heaton depot is not set up for EMUs. It does light cleaning on the LNER units but they mainly stable there. You'd either need to run them back and forth from Neville Hill (via Doncaster) to service, or built facilities at Heaton (not cheap). It's a long way.

As it stands, the closes EMU depot is actually at Craigentinny, so I suppose you could borrow a few 385s but I can imagine the Scottish Government won't be too impressed.

2. Given the above issues, where would you borrow the stock from? More 331s, the 365s currently in storage at Crewe, some converted 442s? All of Northern's current EMU fleet are spoken for.

3. The power situation north of Newcastle is tenuous at best. Granted, there's the infrastructure to plug it into at Lynemouth, but it's still a bit of a headache, and quite expensive, to build a new transformer. This is going to be a reopening done on the cheap. There will be no money tree à la Borders or Levenmouth.

4. It would take a long time to open it with the wires up. Building it first and then coming along later to do the complicated bits seems sensible. Ground investigations, planning, earthworks and piling all take time. Either open it soon, and close it later to string up the knitting, or take an age to do the whole lot at once.

5. Politics. As with everything, is there the political will or the money lying around to do this? Maybe, but unlikely. The Tories may have won Blyth Valley, but they don't seem to be trying too hard to keep it.

 

[Anvil1984]

Start again as I misread your message Waverley sorry

Personally I think there’ll be a long time coming before Northern or it’s long distant successors use EMUs for either line.

Just a point on your comments about all the above services interworking, that really isn’t the case Monday to Friday, the Hexham to Teesside via Durham Coast keeps itself to itself and the Morpeth to Carlisle’s only really interwork with the Newcastle to Carlisle services (no Metrocentre terminators except for evening and Sundays now). However pre Covid the plans on the Track Access Application for December 2020 had majority of services for on all Northern’s Newcastle centric services splitting at Newcastle except for a new Carlisle to Middlesbrough service (the additional Durham Coast service an hour)

I agree Heaton isn’t set up for EMUs even though they did some work on the 321s / 322s about 10 year ago but it would need a lot more wires. Stock moves wouldn’t be an issue as much as you reckon though. There is the daily stock swap between Neville Hill and Heaton this could potentially in the future be a EMU instead of a DMU. The likelihood is that by the time this is all done and the necessary wires (Heaton Depot, Morpeth sidings, the Blyth and Tyne line itself) the direct line between York and Leeds will be wired. As I say I think it would be years before even contemplated so I’ll base my assumption off that. I reckon you’d need minimum 5/6 EMUs at Newcastle as Northumberland line is slated to be be half hourly instead of the hourly Morpeth so 2 for Morpeth / Chathill (could get away with 1 for most of the day just depends on pathing) and 4 or so for Ashington (but that is back of cigarette packet stuff)

However in the main I agree that it’ll be years before this is even discussed

 

[waverley47]

Just an answer to point 1. York to Leeds direct has a much better chance of being wired in the near future than Newcastle to Sunderland or the Metrocentre so quicker route to Neville Hill (remember Northern do have daily evening stock swaps between Heaton and Neville Hill so this could replace that). The point about Heaton is correct, it would need a lot more electrification on there

However Morpeth services at present (although it was planned to change pre Covid) go all the way through to Carlisle except Sundays and evenings and even then the turn back sidings would need wired too (again sticking to facts so this doesn’t go into Speculative Ideas)

Personally I think there’ll be a long time coming before Northern or it’s long distant successors use EMUs for either line

Exactly, it's either electrify the whole lot, or none of it, and through to Carlisle is a long way.

Stock swaps are reasonable but still, Church Fenton being wired is a while away. In the meantime it's via Doncaster.

Given that we're already in a Speculative Ideas thread, it seems reasonable to continue to speculate on the electrification in the future.

 

[Anvil1984]

Exactly, it's either electrify the whole lot, or none of it, and through to Carlisle is a long way.

Stock swaps are reasonable but still, Church Fenton being wired is a while away. In the meantime it's via Doncaster.

Given that we're already in a Speculative Ideas thread, it seems reasonable to continue to speculate on the electrification in the future.

sorry I forgot this was in Speculative Ideas, long shift

Exactly, it's either electrify the whole lot, or none of it, and through to Carlisle is a long way.

Stock swaps are reasonable but still, Church Fenton being wired is a while away. In the meantime it's via Doncaster.

Given that we're already in a Speculative Ideas thread, it seems reasonable to continue to speculate on the electrification in the future.

I went back and re-edited myself after reading your reply further and realised I misinterpreted (my bad) . I initially replied to the question whether there were plans and there are none so for there to be wiring I think it would actually be well after Church Fenton especially as there’s been no whisperings of electrification of the new line or the bits required for the Morpeth line. Durham Coast won’t be done for quite a few years (potentially after the Carlisle line as I believe Nexus removed the need for the New Metros to be compatible with 25kv AC)

I agree with you in the main just a few things where I think it could work and fall down differ

 

[Killingworth]

769s! Ducks for cover.

 

[Anvil1984]

769s! Ducks for cover.

**Throws things at a Ducking Killingworth*. I think the potential for Northern adding more of these are slim after all the issues they have had with getting first batch up to speed and drivers trained but potentially they would work at least on the Morpeths, the new line depends on how well they change on the move.

Also would need other depots drivers to be trained on them for stock moves etc (Heaton has no wheel lathe so they’d have to go to Neville Hill to get wheel flats taken care of)

 

[backontrack]

**Throws things at a Ducking Killingworth*

I misread that.