Class 800 Interior Redesign Project

[Tobi_Wan]

Hi Everyone,

This is my first of hopefully many posts here, its a pleasure meeting you all. This is a long one but hopefully of interest to you!

Cutting to the chase: I'm currently doing a Masters degree in Transport design. My final Project will consist of a ground-up interior re-design of the GWR spec Hitachi Class 800 family of trains.

Why the Hitachi? After combing through huge amounts of research material, it's easy to see that there are issues with the user experience of these Class 800's in particular. Passenger comfort, amenities and ergonomics fall under this area, essentially covering how the passenger feels through all stages of the journey. Everything in-between boarding and disembarking. This covers seating, cabin lighting, signage, provisions and amenities.

Why choose this particular project? I'm hugely passionate about rail and it's pioneering history. My best childhood memories were created on the GWML, watching HST's roar through Pewsey (even if it scared the living sh*t out of me at the time) invoking a huge appreciation for industrial and civil engineering in my early years. I was always sketching Brunel's greatest creations obsessively, later re-creating them with lego or anything I could get my hands on. This led me to study Industrial design as an undergrad and transport design as a postgrad. In the future I'm aiming to work within the transport design sector, hopefully making the railway experience better for everyone.

Which is why It saddens me when the IEP project, a huge investment that's meant to be a massive step up for our railways, is executed in such a poor manor in terms of user experience. There was huge potential to create a product which people want to travel on, even entice them out their cars, for the sake of carbon emissions and the survival of the industry we all love at the least. Yes, these days it's all about money, I'm well aware GWR have had their hands tied by the DFT in a lot of design decisions, but the rail industry can do more to better serve passengers through well thought out and logical industrial design - not settling for less at the expense of fare-paying passengers. I'm also aware the IEP's aren't the only stock with these issues (looking at you, class 700). The point is, it can be done better.

What I'm hoping to achieve: A new interior design which satisfies the original design spec specified by the DFT, but hugely improves the user experience for the passenger. This will be created within the boundaries of the current chassis and train structure, featuring a realistic retrofit for TOC's using the Class 800 platform (GWR in this case). This is hypothetical and all for a university project, I've obviously got no affiliation to any of the aforementioned parties. This is just something I'm passionate about and want to improve.

Why am I posting here? Part of designing something effective is understanding the needs of the people using/maintaining it. Obviously the design should exceed them, but finding out what people are hacked off with is the first step. I planned on doing this using focus groups and face to face interviews, but Covid-19 put a stop to that.

So in conclusion: I'm looking to talk to people who have any opinions on the current class 800 interior. Do you have a particular gripe or annoyance? Do you have a disability which isn't catered for? Do you find yourself thinking 'I wish this was different'? If so, let me know here and I'll PM you with a couple of more specific questions relating to your experience. Happy to discuss details about the project on this thread, but for actual data collection that'll have to be done privately (GDPR/Research Ethics red tape). I'll also update it with design developments (sketches, CAD) if people are interested in the process

Congratulations if you've made it this far and not fallen asleep. Looking forward to hearing from you!

 

[BrutalLegend]

Judging from many of the posts in this forum, you’re not dealing with typical users. For example many people here work in the industry. Others know the names of the various types of seat which could be fitted. More obsess about details which the travelling public wouldn’t care about

With my day job hat on (most Senior UXer in a tech company, over a decade in the industry) I don’t think this is going to help you meet your research objectives. You’d be better off targeting forums or social groups aimed more at passengers. I’d also suggest getting more contextual insights by asking people to talk to you about their journeys on the class 800 and asking them for more detail if they mention something memorable related to the design. (Rather than leading them by asking for specific gripes)

Whilst you’ll probably get some interesting ideas from here, try not to let it influence your conclusions too much.

 

[JonathanH]

There was huge potential to create a product which people want to travel on, even entice them out their cars, for the sake of carbon emissions and the survival of the industry we all love at the least.

Is there any evidence that the interior is actually stopping 'normal passengers', ie not people on this forum, from using these trains? Have passenger loadings actually declined as a result of the design decisions? For many people, they are an improvement on what went before and entirely appropriate for the journeys they are being used on.

 

[Starmill]

I would say that the best thing to try to do is canvass opinion from those who've travelled further and spent a long time onboard.

Try to get as many samples of people who have made a journey longer than 4 hours and go through asking them how comfortable they felt. After all, that's the primary purpose of these trains. In particular it would be crucial to ask how they felt about the journey overall, how they felt about the specific train itself, their opinions of the interior and how likely they would be to make the journey again. You could ask what they would most like to see improved from the trip.

I assume you've already looked into making several long research trips yourself.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I actually don't mind the overall scheme.

All I'd change to make them pretty much spot-on in Standard would be:

1. A new seat cushion (both pieces). The back piece would have a less pronounced headrest so it doesn't push into the shoulders of taller people, being quite a low backed seat. The base piece would be slightly thicker and would have a piece of wood or metal under it so the support can't be felt by one's backside.

2. A more colourful, brighter colour scheme. It's amazing the difference the LNER and TPE interiors make to the homeliness of the interior when all they've changed is the colour scheme from the GWR drab grey and 1980s-bus lime green. If GWR used dark green instead of grey for the seats this alone would make a big difference.

3. Fit luggage racks in all 4 of the door pockets, removing 8 seats per coach. This will make luggage provision about the right level and get rid of those highly undesirable seats.

More could be spent, e.g. replacing the seat frames with better ones such as the Grammer ICE3000, but there's not a lot wrong with the Sophia frame, it's the cushion that's the issue. Ideally don't change the seat layout as the legroom is excellent.

In First I'd replace the seats, as they are rubbish - the whole design is just not up to the job. The First Class version of the Grammer ICE3000 would be a good choice, that or the FISA LEAN. Or to be fair the same frames with the cushions used on the TPE Mk5a.

 

[Bletchleyite]

To add to that there are other things that would be nice, e.g. provision of a proper bar area for the longer-distance services, but the above are the basics that are needed.

 

[Andy Pacer]

I am a 'normal traveller', and whilst I work in the transport industry its not in rail.
I think from a lot of observations people moan about the seats being hard (particularly posters here) although when travelling I've not heard any normal passengers mentioning this. I've asked some friends of mine what they thought of them and they had no opinion!

 

[Bletchleyite]

I am a 'normal traveller', and whilst I work in the transport industry its not in rail.
I think from a lot of observations people moan about the seats being hard (particularly posters here) although when travelling I've not heard any normal passengers mentioning this. I've asked some friends of mine what they thought of them and they had no opinion!

I quite like hard seats, and the much maligned "ironing board" is actually my current UK third-favourite I reckon (the top being the Grammer IC3000 and second the E3000 Desiro seat; the FISA LEAN might slip in there but I haven't sat on one long enough to properly judge yet). But what I don't like, and what is the major flaw in the Sophia, is that you can feel a supporting bar through the base. Whether this affects you or not is probably a function of how heavy you are and how naturally padded (!) your backside is, which is why I guess some people really don't see what the issue is.

 

[Andy Pacer]

I quite like hard seats, and the much maligned "ironing board" is actually my current UK third-favourite I reckon (the top being the Grammer IC3000 and second the E3000 Desiro seat; the FISA LEAN might slip in there but I haven't sat on one long enough to properly judge yet). But what I don't like, and what is the major flaw in the Sophia, is that you can feel a supporting bar through the base. Whether this affects you or not is probably a function of how heavy you are and how naturally padded (!) your backside is, which is why I guess some people really don't see what the issue is.

Haha that's probably an interesting factor.
I've spent more journeys in first class than standard anyway, and those seats are quite good.
I was mainly highlighting that the seats are a recurring topic for people (quite understandably) but I also think there is a proportion of travellers who don't even notice!

 

[Bletchleyite]

I've spent more journeys in first class than standard anyway, and those seats are quite good.

Interesting, as I think they are rubbish. Totally the wrong shape for me. I sat in one on GWR once and decided that it wasn't worth Weekend First.

The cushion TPE used on the same frame in the Mk5a however is one of the most comfortable seats I've ever sat in - the Mk5a 1st interior as a whole is something really, really special. Indeed, "copy the Mk5a" (window alignment aside) might be a good answer to the question!

I forgot to add one more thing - bin the blinds - they just cause arguments. Proper curtains in 1st, nowt in Standard.

 

[Andy Pacer]

I also say scrap the digital reservation screens and bring back the cards, at least these 'worked' all the time!

 

[Andy Pacer]

Interesting, as I think they are rubbish. Totally the wrong shape for me. I sat in one on GWR once and decided that it wasn't worth Weekend First.

I guess this is the interesting thing, that people have their different opinions which makes bringing an impartial case together very difficult!

 

[Bletchleyite]

I guess this is the interesting thing, that people have their different opinions which makes bringing an impartial case together very difficult!

What this backs up is a "generic" seat design - an average hardness of cushion, and little contouring. The problem with "ergonomic" seating is that it is designed for a specific shape of person - it can't not be. You don't get many people complaining about the Grammer E3000 Desiro seat, for example. I don't think I ever heard a complaint about it. It has a reasonably but not too soft base, it's not too upright, it doesn't have an excessively contoured back. There's basically nothing to upset anyone about it. The older Chapman seat commonly used in regional 15x is similar in concept.

For First Class more thought is perhaps needed, but there are plenty of decent options out there. The Pendolino seat seems pretty good to me.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

I've only made short journeys on these trains myself, and those were on TPE units rather than GWR... However my parents used an LNER one from Wakefield to London and did find the seats a bit uncomfortable by the time they reached Peterborough.

Their biggest grumble was the over-use of the "Azuma" nickname in announcements, which confused them as they thought it was another operator name and were worried they'd boarded the wrong train, but that's no doubt beyond the scope of your research!

 

[Doctor Fegg]

Fix the bike accommodation, and provide some space for buggies. Both are wholly inadequate at present.

There was a good posting over on the GWR Coffee Shop forums about how this could be achieved (basically, take out the carriage-end seats with no windows, which people have proved very reluctant to use). I can't find it off-hand, but the author sometimes posts here too, so hopefully they might chime in.

 

[stuu]

Apart from the lack of a buffet, and the dreary interior decor, they are absolutely fine trains. Certainly no drastic overhaul is required. The legroom is fantastic, never had a problem with the seat comfort, that's very subjective.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Apart from the lack of a buffet, and the dreary interior decor, they are absolutely fine trains. Certainly no drastic overhaul is required. The legroom is fantastic, never had a problem with the seat comfort, that's very subjective.

Have you been on an LNER one? It feels like a totally different train with all the bright red, when it's actually identical barring the seat covers and the colour of the stripe where the reservation displays are.

 

[Starmill]

You don't get many people complaining about the Grammer E3000 Desiro seat, for example. I don't think I ever heard a complaint about it. It has a reasonably but not too soft base, it's not too upright, it doesn't have an excessively contoured back. There's basically nothing to upset anyone about it.

Indeed. I've never heard anyone complaining about them, and I don't mind even 4 hours sat in one. They seem to do a baseline job extremely well.

 

[stuu]

Have you been on an LNER one? It feels like a totally different train with all the bright red, when it's actually identical barring the seat covers and the colour of the stripe where the reservation displays are.

No, I should have mentioned that I've only been on the GWR ones. I've seen the photos and they are better. I think the carriages would be a little nicer if there was a divider half way along, and using some warmer materials like the wood effect ICEs have.

 

[tetudo boy]

Here's my idea:

1. More padding on seat's or replace them with a completely different material.
2. Replace the seatback tables on standard class with larger ones. Not as large as first class, though.
3. Maybe a micro buffet on GWR and TPE set's to make use of the limited space.
4. Have the design changed on the interiors. One example is TPE. It's interior is quite plain. I would have the interior of the Nova 1's to match with the Nova 2 and 3's. This would include the seat's being refitted, A PCD PIS being retrofitted (Maybe including more LED ones), replace the vinyl seat's to match the other Nova's, and some of the wallpaper being changed. I honestly don't get why they didn't do this.
5. Decrease the brightness on the lights. Maybe with a warmer colour.
6. More automatic announcements such as "For today, This train will instead terminate/make an extra stop/skip ___ station" or "This train is delayed By approximately __ minutes. This is due to ___.". I remember when I was travelling on a Class 802 to Manchester from Liverpool and It terminated at Manchester Victoria instead of going to Edinburgh. The automatic announcement said that this train was going to Edinburgh, which confused some passengers.
7. Make the interior design options even more customizable. As I mentioned in the last idea, the interior's looked plain. If we made the interior design more customizable then any train operator who wants to order or refurbish a Class 800/801/802 set(s) such as different and customizable wallpapers and more seat design options.
8. Align the seats with the windows, obviously.
9. Bigger luggage spaces.

This isn't interior related, but I thought I'd just sneak this in:

• Replace the bogies with more reliable ones. It would be less loud when breaking, it would be smoother, and would allow for faster braking.

You should probably rename this to "IEP interior redesign project" or "Hitachi AT300 Interior Redesign Project" since the class 801 and 802 have similar problems.

 

[Tobi_Wan]

Judging from many of the posts in this forum, you’re not dealing with typical users. For example many people here work in the industry. Others know the names of the various types of seat which could be fitted. More obsess about details which the travelling public wouldn’t care about

With my day job hat on (most Senior UXer in a tech company, over a decade in the industry) I don’t think this is going to help you meet your research objectives. You’d be better off targeting forums or social groups aimed more at passengers. I’d also suggest getting more contextual insights by asking people to talk to you about their journeys on the class 800 and asking them for more detail if they mention something memorable related to the design. (Rather than leading them by asking for specific gripes)

Whilst you’ll probably get some interesting ideas from here, try not to let it influence your conclusions too much.

Thank you for the advice - I completely with your points.

There can be interesting insights from people who work in the industry which I'd like to factor in. This could be some context behind why certain design decisions were taken, just helps build up a picture of what I'm working with.

But you're right, some tweaking needs to be done - all part of what makes design research fun! Cheers for the input.

 

[Tobi_Wan]

Is there any evidence that the interior is actually stopping 'normal passengers', ie not people on this forum, from using these trains? Have passenger loadings actually declined as a result of the design decisions? For many people, they are an improvement on what went before and entirely appropriate for the journeys they are being used on.

Some people don't have a choice, such as commuters. Some may have moved to a specific area due to the rail links provided. I doubt a bad interior design would result in a huge change in passenger numbers, but it's not exactly enticing them from cars - which is why we need to do.

There have been cases of people choosing the car over the train for leisure journeys though. A specific case was a couple who live in London and planned a cycle tour around Cornwall - they drove as the bike provisions on the class 800 were so poor. The designated bike stowage on an IEP is always full of luggage (as there's not enough luggage space in the saloon) and hard to access if the train has any standing passengers in the vestibules. The design also requires people to lift the front of their bikes to the ceiling to hang them vertically, which some physically struggle to do.

They completed the journey on an HST 11 years ago as both bikes could be stowed in the power car luggage compartment along with their cases.

 

[Tobi_Wan]

I would say that the best thing to try to do is canvass opinion from those who've travelled further and spent a long time onboard.

Try to get as many samples of people who have made a journey longer than 4 hours and go through asking them how comfortable they felt. After all, that's the primary purpose of these trains. In particular it would be crucial to ask how they felt about the journey overall, how they felt about the specific train itself, their opinions of the interior and how likely they would be to make the journey again. You could ask what they would most like to see improved from the trip.

I assume you've already looked into making several long research trips yourself.

Thank you for these ideas - especially addressing the long distance element of the IEP's.

The research trips you suggested are well on my radar. Ideally I'd ride an entire IEP diagram for a day and just chat to people, annoyingly there's too much red tape set by the university to allow me to do this. I've done plenty of solo trips and recorded potential design changes that could be implemented, but it's not the same.

Canvassing online will make up the bulk of the research it seems. Cheers!

 

[Devonian]

The seating layout and density is fine, but the standard class seats are a serious disappointment for me: making them slightly softer, increasing the angle between the seat and back by at least 5 degrees and getting rid of the shoulder-level shaping on the 'headrests' would improve them. As an aside, there seems to be a distinct divergence between car (or even bus) seats and rail seats at the moment: the former are evolving for greater comfort, the latter are ever more utilitarian.

Yes, rejigging the luggage and bike spaces would be good. Catering is not currently to intercity standard - though whether that's do do with the trains themselves is a can of worms in itself!

I can think of at least half a dozen "details which the travelling public wouldn’t care about"... but which would make their travelling experience better nonetheless, from taps (make them visible) to signage (lack of familiar red 'Alarm' labels). Feel free to ask for my list of Missed Design Opportunities...

 

[Tobi_Wan]

To add to that there are other things that would be nice, e.g. provision of a proper bar area for the longer-distance services, but the above are the basics that are needed.

Many thanks for the detailed suggestions, especially regarding the seat cushions and frames.

It'd be interesting to look at something similar to the 'Snug' area on the class 442 for long distance passengers - these touches make a huge difference.

 

[Tobi_Wan]

Their biggest grumble was the over-use of the "Azuma" nickname in announcements

This is interesting. I've overheard a few passengers talking about the automated GWR announcements and an apparent patronising tone! Thank you for the info.

 

[JonathanH]

There have been cases of people choosing the car over the train for leisure journeys though. A specific case was a couple who live in London and planned a cycle tour around Cornwall - they drove as the bike provisions on the class 800 were so poor. The designated bike stowage on an IEP is always full of luggage (as there's not enough luggage space in the saloon) and hard to access if the train has any standing passengers in the vestibules. The design also requires people to lift the front of their bikes to the ceiling to hang them vertically, which some physically struggle to do.

The reality of carrying bikes (and surfboards) is that it is down to the economics of what it costs to carry them relative to what people are prepared to pay. Should operators make provision to convey bikes and surfboards (for free) relative to carrying an extra passenger for free. In normal circumstances, it appears that GWR have no problem filling trains to the West Country (although I concede that a bike van could have been provided instead of a kitchen). Do trains really need to convey bikes or is it appropriate for people to hire one at their destination? People have talked about extra luggage stacks in seats with no window view.

Some people don't have a choice, such as commuters. Some may have moved to a specific area due to the rail links provided. I doubt a bad interior design would result in a huge change in passenger numbers, but it's not exactly enticing them from cars - which is why we need to do.

It isn't all about design though. A lot of the decisions are about price - higher density seating should enable fixed costs to be spread over more people - convenience and the likelihood of getting a seat, particularly on a long journey. Onboard perception is also about the ability for the train to be kept tidy with lots of people getting on and off. It also depends on what people want to do when they get to the West. If they have a car and want to travel around, no change to the train is likely to make them choose not to go by car.

It'd be interesting to look at something similar to the 'Snug' area on the class 442 for long distance passengers - these touches make a huge difference.

That area was a bit odd. In concept it appears to have been about having a 'bar' type area next to the buffet counter. Would someone want to sit there all the way from London to the West? I'm not sure they would and if they found themselves there because the train was otherwise packed, I'm not sure they would have been particularly happy about it. Again, the economics would appear to suggest that an area like that has to pay for itself in terms of ticket sales.

I think that is the overriding thing about any 'design' feature that is suggested to improve a train. Does the change pay for itself in terms of more people travelling over and above simply fitting in more seats in a comfortable layout?

 

[py_megapixel]

Something which might be a little different to what @Tobi_Wan was thinking of - but which certainly impacts the passenger experience - is the sound of the interior. Yes, the brakes are screechy, and that needs fixing, but one of the best minor changes that could be made would be to change the door buzzers. The PRM TSI specifies frequencies for the door tones but there is still room within that standard to make them sound less harsh and they seem much louder than other PRM compliant trains.

Also, staying on the same topic,
"THIS is...... nnnnReading! ........ THIS is a GREAT western RAILWAY service tooooo.... London Paddington. The next station isssssssss..... Did Cot Park Wayyyy."
Could the announcements sound any more patronising?

If you want an example of good announcements, look at South Western. Concise, non patronising, no waffle, just tells you what you need to know.

 

[tetudo boy]

Something which might be a little different to what @Tobi_Wan was thinking of - but which certainly impacts the passenger experience - is the sound of the interior. Yes, the brakes are screechy, and that needs fixing, but one of the best minor changes that could be made would be to change the door buzzers. The PRM TSI specifies frequencies for the door tones but there is still room within that standard to make them sound less harsh and they seem much louder than other PRM compliant trains.

Also, staying on the same topic,
"THIS is...... nnnnReading! ........ THIS is a GREAT western RAILWAY service tooooo.... London Paddington. The next station isssssssss..... Did Cot Park Wayyyy."
Could the announcements sound any more patronising?

If you want an example of good announcements, look at South Western. Concise, non patronising, no waffle, just tells you what you need to know.

Yes, someone replace that god-awful voice on GWR!
TPE's announcements on the Class 802 are quite nice. I think it has a Yorkshire accent to it which is welcoming for passengers travelling to Yorkshire.

 

[Bletchleyite]

TPE's announcements on the Class 802 are quite nice. I think it has a Yorkshire accent to it.

If I recall rightly it is a nicer accent than the rude, clipped one on Class 185s.

I similarly quite like the one Northern use on Classes 195/331, it's a very warm voice, a bit (the late) Victoria Wood-esque.